Talk:Cultural cringe

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Why is Lawson's citation included in the "Origin" section?

The term is attributed to A.A. Philips in a 1950 essay. Why doesn't this part of the history come first? While the quote from Lawson gives a crisp description, it seems to about the phenomen, not the phrase, and appears 56 years before the phrase was coined.

Indeed, there must be many articles in many countries about this general kind of phenomenon. Why include Lawson's in particular? Is it cited in Phillips' piece, or otherwise known to have played a key role in the development of this kind of analysis? If so, this should be asserted (and substantiated). 84.227.247.9 (talk) 10:35, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Does anybody think this concept applies to Islamic culture?

While this is obviously going to be a controversial statement, it seems many of the criteria of a cultural cringe affect those who practice Islam. This is on a very general level of course. Does anybody think this is worth mentioning? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.143.190.19 (talk) 13:40, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes if you can find sources, especially ones that use this particular phrase or bridge to it in some way. 84.227.247.9 (talk) 10:35, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Australia Day

The day is also less-than-enthusiastically celebrated due to its marking of the invasion of Aboriginal Australia huh? The vast majority of Australians don't care (for better or for worse).

In my experience that isn't true at all. I've met very few people who just don't care at all. Most of the people I've met are either hugely opossed to even the idea that these "lefties" are telling them to feel "guilty", or are people who hate the very concept of Australia Day as anything but Invasion Day. --124.177.103.193 (talk) 06:02, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

United States?

Come on, this phenomenon definitely exists in the US, especially among the highly educated/traveled who have to carry the stigma of George Bush, Walmart, and Bud Light everywhere they go. -signed by an anon IP

I agree that a similar phenomenon exists, but it doesn't seem to be documented anywhere. I can't even find any mention of it. We could create a section, but it would be original research and our own conclusions. Bhumiya (said/done) 06:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

This is also my personal opinion, but I think these Americans do not feel that they come from an inferior country. Rather, they dislike their president or some of their country's companies. Contrast that with one of my highly educated and successful Australian friends who asked me (in all seriousness) if Australia was a developed country. 193.132.242.1 13:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

What you described (the anon IP) is also deemed a cultural cringe within the U.S. those pop-cultural symbols you referred to are perceived as "low class", "cheapened", "redneck", "blue collar" or "hick" culture by the Liberal elites of the North (East Coast) and the West Coast for quite some time. + 71.102.10.169 (talk) 04:09, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Americans definitely do not have this issue. We were once a colony (of Britain, just like Australia, I might add), and now are a fully developed nation. So is Australia. However, the difference is that Australia is rarely involved with foreign affairs. Every single day the US is involved in something. We feel the need to be an "international policeman" and interfere in the lives of citizens around the world. Arrogance is also another fundamental difference: while the Australians usually stay out of people's lives, Americans generally run around in a crazed fashion, ending with a dash to the American embassy in their country. The ambassador will then claim that the local police have no jurisdiction and generally give the suspect in question a lecture. This is ridiculous. We both were colonies of the same country, have evolved for the same number of years, yet the differences between us are astonishing. Randolf+slayer (talk) 03:09, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

From my experience working abroad, lack of arrogance doesn't characterize Australia. In fact applying for a visa to work there was an astonishing experience. It's the only country I've had problems with. I was in the end told to take a hike because I had a non-contagious medical condition; they didn't want to sell me heath insurance. And this was for a 70k a year job, and they still thought it was worth embarrassing everyone involved. But you do have a point about isolation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.68.254.219 (talk) 17:11, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure that is true. America since the 1940's has been actively intervening in the world, but before that America was very strongly isolationist. Even now most Americans have no interest in or knowledge of, the outside world. Only 12 or so percent of American have passports. The news broadcasts rarely mention the rest of the world, except in the context of American invasions. Australians by contrast have a strong interest in the outside world, and travel a lot. Don't get military power, and popular interest in the outside world, confused. Americans seem to have a strong belief in their country's superiority (not based on any emphirical comparison, just unfounded self-confidence), yet are also afraid of international criticism, which they peculiarly define as "anti-Americanism". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 00:13, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

My dignosis is that we in the USA have a major inferiority complex, the cause, listining to to many liberals. Oh and if there are some spelling mistakes it is due to my learning disability, something that the left says makes you unworthy of life, aka (abortions "justification") look at thier love of the word "retard" as an insult. And one last thing look at the way they look at the middle east, they fell its culture is inferior so they do not diserve freedom or our help so our war on terror is unjustifiable.b.s. thank you for reading. -jowns —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jowns (talk • contribs) 20:05, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

You best be trollin', retard. 96.237.59.92 (talk) 00:19, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Of course it's documented - just think about it a bit more. You can look at any anti-fast food/supermall manifesto, all those who moved to Canada after Bush got re-elected, etc. etc. This section and one for the UK too needs to be added. Turkeyphan^t 10:20, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I am not certain that "For all the obvious reasons." is sufficient to describe "Cultural cringe" in the US. This must be vandalism. Wastrel Way (talk) 17:04, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Cultural cringe is the feeling that something can't be good because it comes from your own culture, not that some people, at some time criticise something within their own culture. The fact that US editors are blaming criticisms on a small imagined sub-set of their culture, rather than just quietly assuming it is true, almost proves that the US doesn't suffer from cultural cringe. Either way, Sources making the point need to be supplied. Ashmoo (talk) 13:05, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Noam Chomsky. Howard Zinn. People from the United States (see, I use that description rather than "Americans" because I, as a holder of a US passport, cringe when a fellow-national refers to us as "Americans", thus excluding anyone else from North or South America), myself included, do cringe at our own culture. Whether it's McDonald's, Coca-cola, Hollywood, our abhorrent incarceration rates, the death penalty, our past (Hiroshima, slavery, the Trail of Tears), or our present (Guantánamo, the death penalty, poverty, Fallujah, drone warfare, wiretapping, ongoing sexism, racism, and other -isms), there is a lot to cringe about. Republicans who say the USA is the greatest country ever and if you think otherwise we'll put a boot in your ass, just represent a further embarrassment. Crasshopper (talk) 23:06, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Aussie Rules?

What a joke. Some people just don't like the stupid sport because they were brought up in a different Australian culture. Any apathy for Aussie rules lies in the fact that aussie rules is not part of the culture in those areas where it isn't accepted. Thus it doesn't qualify as cultural cringe. Austrlia is a big country. Cultures vary. NSWelshman 01:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I respect your opinion, coming from Queensland and being brought up on the game of rugby league and rugby union. However I don't think that the article disputes this. What it does say is that there are many people who have have not been brought up with it who justify their rejection of it based on the concepts of cultural cringe, and in this context, the statements of the article have merit. --Biatch 01:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

== This entire article is crap or at least the Australian section, I'm not qualified to comment on the rest.

There is real confusion as to what cultural cringe it. To me, it is the perception that a countries culture is regarded as inferior by others because other countries cultures are superior. That isn't the same as the residents of other countries beliving their own cultures are better (which is chauvenism), or the residents of the first country thinking their culture is inferior (which is closer to the tall poppy syndrome).124.197.15.138 (talk) 00:06, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

NSWelshman is right. Some of us don't particularly like Aussie Rules because we grew up playing a different sport. It would be like saying there is a cultural cringe in the U.S. because not everyone likes Ice Hockey.

I assume the owner of convict creations.com added in the link to their own site, but that doesn't make the information legitimate: we treat all public holidays as days off. Also, if you think about what Australia Day represents, it's really no wonder we don't make too big a thing of it.

I can't really comment on the rest because in true Wiki-style, it consists of disjointed facts and incomprehensible arguments.

198.142.39.40 08:06, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

This is your personal opinion. Wikipedia is not the place to dismiss things as crap simply because they are your personal opinion. The same arguments are often found on other pages related to these subjects, but they have not been substantiated and there are plenty of articles out there that point to the cultural cringe phenomenon. Find something that argues the contrary and then you can put forward your case. By the way, Ice hockey is a Canadian sport as far as I am aware and the US, as one of the world's great superpowers and an independent free settlement (as opposed to a colonial convict outpost), would hardly be subject to any cultural cringe. --Biatch 00:35, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Germaine Greer loves Australia?? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.--EDH 10:23, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes certainly the Aust section is a big mess. Various editors do not even seem to understand the concept: that Aust culture is no good, though it becomes acceptable once international audiences show their approval. eg this sentence: Many Australians who are prominent overseas are subject to cultural cringe. The fame of personalities such as the late Steve Irwin,[10] Dame Edna,[11] Rolf Harris, Kylie Minogue or Paul Hogan internationally has never achieved quite the same level of affection at home in Australia.[12] For many, this is due to their overly Australian stereotyped characters or self-deprecating humour. Now this does not make sense because these people all achieved significant UK and/or US success, so in terms of cultural cringe, this international success should then mean that suddenly they become successful and approved of in Aust as well. According to the theory of cultural cringe, Australians will only show approval of a cultural item after international audiences have validated it by showing their approval. The fact that the likes of Irwin never achieved quite the same degree of cult fame in Aust as he did in the US, serves only as a counter example of cultural cringe. It proves that cultural cringe does not always operate. Like, we don't like Neighbours as much as UK audiences do, while things like Blue Heelers, that never really caught on overseas, enjoyed enormous popularity with Australian TV audiences. I'll try to fix up some of this but it needs a lot of work! Asa01 05:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so Asa01 . I think you fail to understand that the topic. It is not "the concept: that Aust culture is no good, though it becomes acceptable once international audiences show their approval". If you read the opening paragraph and citations from literature, where does this say that the concept is this ? What it is saying that ideas and people that have originated from Australia are not given the same respect as those from other countries, in particular the mother country England. --Biatch 01:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi user Biatch, got your message. Victorian Rules or Aussie Rules or whatever it wants to call itself is not really seen as a native Australian game in New South Wales and does not exist to a huge extent outside the top-down. I do not disparage AFL because it is a part of Australian culture, I disparage because it is not part of my Australian culture up north and that whole reference is dodgy. You could make just as much reference to the rugby-thugby attitude that exists in Mebourne as cultural cringe. --Rugby 666 04:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Your argument would hold water if Australians invented rugby. The difference is clearly that rugby is a sport imported from overseas, whereas Australian rules is an Australian sport. Sure, the game originated before federation of Australia, but as it stands today, there are perceptions of northerners that somehow Victoria is not part of Australia and that the game is itself imported in an effort to dispute that the game is Australian. --Biatch 09:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Sources & attributions

The Examples section is very poor. A lot of it is spent trying to decide whether certain aspects of Australian culture are 'cultural cringe' or not. It is not Wikipedia's place to decide such things (WP:OR). Since cultural cringe is so hard to define and identify, the only way we can conform to WP standards is by insisting on sources for other notable commentators who have proclaimed such-and-such to be an example of cultural cringe. There is also a lot of 'perhaps this is cultural cringe, but maybe not' which is unsourced, uninformative and pure opinion. I've going to chop the worst of it out immediately. Ashmoo 01:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, cut all the personal opinions, but don't just replace it with another lot of personal opinions. If it is too hard to define, don't try to do it on Wikipedia, leave it to the chattering classes to talk about it. Phaedrus86 00:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Aust section - error

Article claims following: In Australia, the government has to legislate to keep a quota of Australian content. This particularly effects reality television.

I believe this is wrong: yes the Govt does legislate to keep a quota of Australian content, but the shows must be scripted drama [1] . Unscripted reality or magazine type programs do not count towards the quota. Asa01 03:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality disputed

I placed an NPOV template on the article page because I think readers should be warned that a large proportion of this article, particularly the Australian section, consists of biased personal opinion. If people want to publish personal opinions on Wikipedia, then that is their right, but until such time as the article becomes neutral and based on facts or citations of credible authorities, then I think the warning should stay so readers know what they are getting. Phaedrus86 01:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The australian section is seriously dodgy. Though there are references, (eg, a news article stating that Steve Irwin wasn't that popular in Australia) I wonder just how many of these references actually state that their subject's lack of popularity it due to cultural cringe. Like, the Irwin article corroborates that he wasn't that popular in Aust. It does not corroborate that this is because of cultural cringe. To be useful in this article, the reference must also state that it is due to cultural cringe. Asa01 02:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll third that. All statements in the article need sources that attribute a specific attitude to cultural cringe. Having a source that includes an Australian criticizing another Australian isn't enough. Ashmoo 03:42, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I hadn't even *heard* of Steve Irwin prior to 2002, and I worked in the media industry. I don't think it was cultural cringe at all - rather, he got on US TV first, then went international and then was able to fund a program for Australia. Orderinchaos78 02:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

A couple of comments about the Australian section:

• I think claims about Australian rules football are incorrect: IMO, people who prefer football (soccer) because of its international reach don't do so because it wasn't invented here - after all people still follow cricket with intensity - they do it because with Australian rules, once you have won the domestic league grand final, that's the end of the road, there is nothing else to achieve; with football (soccer), there are confederation and world club competitions, potential of national team selection and the confederation and world cup competitions after that.
• The claims about Steve Irwin not being popular because he was Australian - it was because the thing that made him entertaining, the fact that he played an Australian stereotype, just isn't funny when you actually live in Australia and have done your whole life. (This is just my opinion as well.)

-- Chuq 11:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with both points. Many of the examples given state that something or someone is disliked, but do not provide the link to the concept; they don't satisfactorily explain why it is an example of cultural cringe. In many cases this is because there simply isn't a link. I think the article needs to build on the promising recent contributions in the introduction to further define the concept, then we can add examples that link to the definition. Phaedrus86 00:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the NPOV tag I placed on the article on 5 November 2006. I think the degree of irrational rant has been reduced to the extent that it no longer really warrants the NPOV tag. Phaedrus86 22:55, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Cultural alienation uncited

The term cultural alienation has appeared recently in the article. I can find no references to it on the Internet, so it is possibly original research and so will have to be either cited or removed. The arguments for it are not necessarily bad, but Wikipedia is generally accepted as being not the place to make them. I will remove this material if it is not supported in a manner acceptable to Wikipedia policies and guidelines within a reasonable time, say a week. Phaedrus86 23:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Citations have now been added, so there is at least one academic work out there that supports the concept. I even added a link to an excerpt from the book so readers can read up on without having a long trip to the state library (as in my case). Phaedrus86 00:58, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear Phaedrus86, The term is a twist on 'social alienation', which comes to us via Sartre and then Frantz Fanon, who wanted to describe what he was observing in French North Africa. A number of other writers following on from Fanon's writings have used alienation in this new 'cultural alienation' sense. Two texts are cited in the added footnote. Not sure if Fanon himself should be referred to here, as it leads us a long way from the Cultural Cringe. CH 17 Jan 2007

The citations fit the bill just fine. It's only a problem if the knowledge is not accessible to the average reader. I once bought a copy of L'Etre et Le Neant by Sartre... and got through all of 3 pages, probably 2.9 more than the average reader. Now that there are citations and Internet links people can read, it is accessible, thanks for doing that. And thanks for the link to Fanon - interesting, I'll have to read up on him. Phaedrus86 08:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Canada

As a Canadian (half Irish descent too), I enjoyed this article. Never truly realized that other commonwealth countries had it like that too. Man, we all got f----d around by the English, eh? Buggers.

Still, you guys got it easy. Try <ugh> living right next door to the USA and holding on to what you got in the face of that storm.

:-) Phaedrus86 12:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I question the statement that Alberta feels cultural cringe due to envy of mainstream or more populated provinces. I can't speak for the whole province but that is very contrary to the experience I had growing up in rural, southern Alberta. A larger population isn't especially desired, and eastern (c.f. atlantic) culture isn't at all admired. Rather than envy, the feeling is resentment that the psychological center of the country is in ON/QC and that the rest of the provinces are the "backwaters" that have less right to their own resources and self-determination; and anger that the politicians in Ottawa seem to better represent eastern interests than those of the prairies, which get disproportionately less air-time. Not intending to start a fight about western alienation or Albertan separatism, but I am representing the wording used and perspectives held by all ruralites that I know. 174.6.169.101 (talk) 05:49, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Ireland

I felt impelled to remove almost the entire Irish section, which is POV, unsourced and wanders off the point a bit:

The spoken accents in many parts of Ireland are seen as a cultural cringe, frequently by the very same people that speak these accents. The Irish symbols of Aran sweaters, Leprechauns, certain Irish traditional folk music and dancing, as well as the rural Irish accents, cause a cultural cringe to emerge in varying degrees amongst many native Irish. The irony of this is that many Irish descendants in other countries such as the United States do not cringe, but conversely treasure these symbols. Much of this inferiority complex may stem from Ireland's colonial history. Many feel that the Irish tourist industry promotes the worst examples of Irish culture, including beer, primitive farming methods, substandard housing and pub ballads, while ignoring finer aspects of Irish culture, such as the Irish language, ancient manuscripts, Newgrange, the Gallarus Oratory, poetry of the Bards, countless monasteries testifying to the preservation of education and civilisation in Ireland when much of Europe was in the throes of the Dark Ages. A rich literature dating from ancient times (Ulster Cycle, Connacht Cycle) to the 18th century is dumbed down to folktales starring leprechauns. Likewise the contribution of Irish craftsmen, masons, sculptors, architects and artists to Neo-classicism in Ireland is often overlooked or falsely considered by visitors to be vestiges of a British authority in Ireland, ignoring the fact that many were Irish (Evie Hone, John Hogan, Francis Johnston, Edward Lovett Pearce, Reilly), these working in Ireland along with many foreigners (the Swiss Lafranchini Brothers, the Italian Alessandro Galilei, the German Richard Cassels) including surprisingly few British (notably James Gandon). Irish scientists particularly those from the 19th century are almost invariably considered British despite a life's work undertaken in Ireland. Too often these claims of Irish scientists as British go uncontested, famously William Rowan Hamilton, an Irish mathematician, physicist, and astronomer who made important contributions to the development of optics, dynamics, and algebra and whose discovery of quaternions is perhaps the best known investigation.

It has been suggested that one reason for the prominence of the most tawdry aspects of Irish stereotyping is the disestablishment of the Irish aristocracy 400 years ago - this event in particular was responsible for the extinction of classical Irish. Negative British depictions of the Irish since that time as savages requiring British civilisation - excellent examples of the latter can be seen in British cartoons at the time of the Home Rule debates.

I don't make great claims for my rewrite; it's also unsourced, but at least there are some wikilinks. jnestorius^(talk) 17:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Other countries section

A lot of this section, (Brazil, Pakistan etc) has no sources at all and reads like a wikieditors personal experience of cultural cringe. These need sources immediately to avoid being chopped. Ashmoo (talk) 12:03, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure the big paragraph on Sri Lanka in this section has much relevance to the article. It seems mostly about Sri Lankan nationalist issues and implicity the war against the Tamil Tigers, and I can't see where feelings of cultural inferiority enter into it. --Ef80 (talk) 12:47, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Cultural Cringe and the Southern United States

It seems that the South is also subjected to some of this. Some people from the South try to lose their Southern accents and pretend as if they weren't from there. It seems like someone would have written a paper about this; does anyone know anything about that? Scythe33 (talk) 03:26, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

USA & Britain

As others have said, it exists in the USA. And there's DEFINATELY this in Britain to a somewhat massive extent in some ways (though I believe it's somewhat "imported" from the US & Europe in some respects). It's not documented because it's so ingrained :P —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurtle (talk • contribs) 15:00, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I think there could be CC in the UK, but if it is undocumented, it can't be added, as per WP:NOTTRUTH. Ashmoo (talk) 13:08, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

New Zealand

Reference 26 regarding cultural cringe in New Zealand "wearing off" is broken. Also, cultural cringe in New Zealand derived less from the New Zealand accent and more from the quality of the New Zealand productions: http://ics.sagepub.com/content/4/4/448.short Thedoctor98 (talk) 04:00, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Just Passing By...

...but it seems rather odd that there's a section titled "South Korea" with absolutely no material underneath, so I thought that it would be prudent to delete it. Comments?

114.241.248.115 (talk) 05:36, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

For obvious errors like that, you can feel free to just fix it without gaining consensus first. see WP:BOLD Ashmoo (talk) 13:19, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

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