Talk:Cross of Burgundy/Archive 1

Archive 1

Burgundian saltire

"http://atelier.viatormundi.ch/bhm1969.htm" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 09:25, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

"http://www.krigsspil.dk/download/burgundy/burgun01.jpg" (from the time of Maximilian I of Austria?)

"http://www.krigsspil.dk/download/burgundy/b_parvis.jpg" (huge shields that were used as protection by the men-at-arms handling the light field artillery in c.1500)

"http://theses.enc.sorbonne.fr/2001.denoel" See chapter V Aspects politiques du culte de saint André en Bourgogne au XVe siecle, by Charlotte Denoël.

"http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Vigiles_du_roi_Charles_VII_51.jpg" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:11, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

"http://vexil.prov.free.fr/opposition/Bande_blanche_vs_sautoir_rouge.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:29, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

"http://scalemodel.net/Gallery/Burgundian_Knight.aspx" It seems to me that this scale-model figurine of a 15th-century Burgundian Knight is perhaps displaying a too modern-like cross of Burgundy. Anyway, there's no doubt that the Burgundian surcoat was blue and white with a red saltire on the breast. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 12:17, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

"http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CPicZ.aspx?E=2C6NU0CA0P2V" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 12:03, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

"http://www.warflag.com/flags/medieval/burgflag.shtml" Note some saltires are displaying as well the Burgundian badge of the firesteel and the flint with sparks, derived from Philip the Good's personal motto. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

"http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afbeelding:Embleem_van_de_Bourgondische_hertogen_zoals_afgebeeld_in_de_Grote_Kerk_in_Den_Haag.jpg" No command of Dutch, but this seems to be a painted glass from the Main Church (or Cave Church) of The Hague (Low Countries). Note the Burgundian firesteel.

"http://www.ugopozzati.it/Bandiere%20Borgogna.htm" Some old-style Burgundian saltires seem to have been made up of two arrows (or perhaps 2 crossbow's quarrels) crossed in diagonal .—Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:11, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Ops, this 17th century Spaniard cross of Burgundy was misidentified in 1850...as a 15th century Burgundian flag_"http://www.tercios.org/files/Bandera_de_Rocroi.pdf" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.148.202 (talk) 18:16, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Havana harbour, 17th century, by Jan Vingboons_"http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/trm223.html" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Battle of Dornach in 1499_"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dornach_1499.jpg" (the cross of Burgundy against the bear of Bern). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.148.202 (talk) 19:19, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Battle of Guinegate (1513)(there was a homonymous battle in 1479). This time the cross of Burgundy against the French white cross. Engraving by Albrecht Dürer -or by his school-,c.1515_"http://popartmachine.com/item/pop_art/BMFA-BMFA.SC2135/function.pg-connect" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:28, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

And the Battle of Grandson in 1476. The illustration by Diebold Schilling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.148.202 (talk) 18:55, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Spanish galleon, c.1650, by the Peruvian colonial painter Diego Quispe Tito_"http://lanaova.blogspot.com.es/2012/08/galeon-en-el-callao.html" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:13, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

The Burgundian saltire dates back to 1408 (John "The Fearless", Duke of Burgundy).The Spaniard army kept on flying the Burgundian colours up to 1843. In 1934, and by no means before that date, the Burgundian flag became the Carlist flag. The Spaniard air tail markings, in spite of the legend, have nothing to do with the Burgundian saltire. The Francoists in the summer of 1936 crossed the Republican red-yellow-and-mauvish flag and roundels out of their warplanes. That´s why there´s a black saltire upon white in the current Spaniard warplanes´tail.

I hope you are able to read in spanish: Spanish Air Force Website. --Maurice27 11:24, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I´m able, Maurice (I happen to be Spaniard). The black saltier as a Spaniard fin marking dates back to the summer of 1936. It´s a Francoist symbol. The Spaniard Air Force is trying to whitewash a Francoist trumped-up symbol, taking advantage of the people´s lack of knowledge.You should read air historians and researchers like Guerrero, and the couple Miranda & Mercado.And Salas Larrazábal, of Carlist stock, was grinding his own axe ("barriendo para casa").Under Alfonso XIII the Spaniard military air fin marking was the red-and-yellow flag,neither a Burgundian red saltire nor a black one.Crystal clear, mate.

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I believe you are wrong. Franco decided to use it on the planes because of the mistakes made by the opposing forces attacking friendly planes (the spanish air force site mentions a Breguet-19 attacked by friendly forces in Seville). Let's not forget that many times, both air forces had the same planes where the only difference was a bicolor or tricolor flag on the fin and the roundels. At the end of the war, the red-yellow-red roundel returned on the wings and fuselage, as it is the conventional international spanish air force distinction. The cross of Burgundy on the fin is not an international distinction and is kept for historical reasons (it has been used since mid XVI century by the spanish armies and still, many spanish regiments have it in their flags). The Royal Air Force / South East Asia Command had to change its red-white-blue roundel during WWII in the pacific theatre for the same reasons. Japanese Air Force had a red roundel and friendly planes were attacked. Red was removed to avoid confusion with the hinomaru. For this reason, the RAF had white & blue only roundels in the pacific.

In addition, don't forget that in times of Alfonso XIII, the air force was called "Aeronáutica Militar Española". It was a completely different army, which was completely redone from scratch with the republic and completely redone again at the end of the war. You can not freely say that Franco did not follow what was established with Alfonso XIII when the "Ejército del Aire Español" was created 1949 as one army had nothing to do with the other. --Maurice27 16:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

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Early in the Civil War the Francoist warplanes kept on displaying the Republican flag and cockade, Maurice.As you say, both parties had the same Breguets and Nieuports at their disposal.So far as I can remember,that Francoist Breguet XIX light bomber was shot down in error by the Legion Condor, or at least by an German plane in Francoist service.And what?Everything remains the same: the black saltire is a Francoist badge, an outrage to the duty-bound Loyalist airmen who shed their blood on behalf of the Republic.To the blazes with it. It should be forbidden once and for all.By the way, the black Francoist roundels were a Spaniard erstwhile military badge or nothing but a deleted Republican cockade? Same thing for the upper wing black or white saltires. Another homage perchance to the Cross of Burgundy? P.S.: In the war against Japan (1941-1945) the British and Commonwealth air markings ended up being either sky blue&light blue ,or else sky blue&white.Do you think in earnest that that makes the black saltire great to my liking?

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Look, as much as I respect your POV, I cannot agree with it. You are stating that an heraldic symbol from the middle ages should be forbidden because Nationalist forces used it during the civil war. With that POV the red-yellow-red roundel should also be changed, just like the very same flag of Spain. The german luftwaffe in WWII also used a cross in its planes. Svastika or not, it was a black cross, just like the one they have in present days. Should germany change it because of its past? I guess not. And what about the flag? Should it be changed because it is "soiled with the blood of democratic governamental republican forces"? Is that what you are saying? Franco did not invent those symbols nor colors. He just used the ones existing before the republic, the colors and symbols representing spain and its armies for more than 400 years. The misuse of an ensign or a symbol by a simple man, even if being a dictator, should not affect the respect that those ensigns or symbols deserve.

Why doesn't christianity change the cross as its symbol then? Hundreds of thousand people died under the sign of the cross. Don't care if it was because of Witchcraft, liberalism, beliefs, being a moor in Granada or a sarracen in Damascus. Nobody deserves to die because of those reasons. How many countries, regions, cities, which nowadays do publicly and thankfully defend freedom of beliefs, civil rights and democracy, should remove this symbol from their flags? England, Malta, scandinavian countries, Asturias... hundreds in the world... Why do they keep a symbol covered with blood in their flags? Maybe because the misuse given to it in the past by "mere mortals" did not soil its prestige.

The Spanish Air Force is a branch of the constitutional spanish armed forces. They have been constitutional for 30 years now. The armed forces are there to protect the soveraignty of Spain, would it be ruled by absolutists kings, dictatorships, republics or constitutionals monarchies. 30 years... Not a single government in those years, would it be from left, center or right, has made that change... Any idea why? --Maurice27 13:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

For they are either traitors or cowards, Maurice.And the "Yoke & Arrows" from Ferdinand of Aragon & Isabella of Castile should be forbidden too. And what about the Spaniard Naval Air Arm? No black saltire (or saltaire). Wasn´t the Burgundian banner the Spaniard naval ensign up to 1701 or so? And the Spaniard Air Force´s maritime rescue flying boats in the 1950s & 1960s? No black saltire. Most ironically your beloved black saltire is part of the Spaniard military heritage: The Cantabria´s Regiment badge. This unit was raised in Guipúzcoa in 1703.It´s a sort of Basque, Cantabrian or Asturian badge.////ALL OF YOU STAND TO ATTENTION PLEASE (YOU TOO, MAURICE): I´ve been editing & updating on my own the Spanish article on the Cross of Burgundy (Cruz de Borgoña, Spanish Wikipedia). I´m responsible for the lines referring to the current Spaniard rudder marking as an embellished Francoist ad-hoc deletion of the republican flag -my bugbear Maurice is allowed to rebuke me for my talking about "wishful thinking"-, First Carlist War, Fal Conde,Basque Nationalism, Biscayne (or Biscayan)(or Vizcayan) merchant ensign, Walloon Rexism, 28th SS division & French regiments raised in Burgundy. In general terms it´s a sound and reliable reappraisal, perhaps rather thumbsnail. Any gross mistake on my part?All kind of further authoritative sources & ammendments shall come in handy.Any volunteer for translating the new text into English? I´m not up to it. I can´t help bringing havoc to the English syntax.Hmmm, I pointed out that the Wallon Legion was mauled on the Russian front. Rexists &Far-Rightish supporters at large are gonna hate me...//////Perhaps is nothing but a myth, but there´s a theory that explains why the Burgundian cross uses to be red. Among the crusaders in Syria,Lebanon & Palestine(the County of Edessa was short-lived) the red cross was the French badge. A makeshift red cross on someone´s breast meant that one was a French crusader. Later, in the Hundred Years´ War, the English king (Anglo-Gascon to be precise) was claimant to the French throne ( and strictly speaking he was the most legitimate candidate). As a result, the one-time French red cross became the English badge (St. George´s cross). The powerful Duke of Burgundy -of French royal lineage &, needless to say,pretender to the throne- eventually turned his coat & backed up the English against the French (the so-called "Armagnacs"). In short, the Burgundian barbed saltire was red since the English one was red as well.The snag is that the 15th century Burgundian army at times flew standards in reverse colours. According to NICHOLAS MICHAELS in "Armies of Medieval Burgundy" (Osprey, 1983): "Not until the early 15th century did the St. Andrew´s cross appear as a military emblem of Burgundy, & was adopted as a result of the civil war in France, no doubt to distinguish between the various partisans [...] In 1408 John the Fearless chose the cross for the Burgundian flag".//////Any volunteer for a text on the Cross of Burgundy as regimental and corps colours and badge in today´s Spaniard armed services (inclusive of the Civil Guard and its Burgundian saltire upon Lincoln green)? I mean the real Cross of Burgundy, Maurice, not your second-rate Francoist rudder marking!//////Regards, "El Encartado Enmascarado".Oops, at last I´ve translatated, or at least tried to, my reappraisal into English. Sorry, Shakespeare...

Spaniard air markings since the 1910's or 1920's to our day. "http://www.aire.org/ea/historia/escarape.htm"

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I would ask you not to say "your second-rate Francoist rudder marking!"... As it is not mine! I don't what are your beliefs about my political ideas, but, estás meando muy muy fuera de tiesto--Maurice27 19:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

====I would say "pissing off the flowerpot" in my own "do-it-yourself" English...////According ot OTTO VON PIVKA in "Spanish Armies of the Napoleonic Wars" (Osprey, 1975):"SPANISH ARMY FLAGS_ The flags carried by the Spanish army in the period 1800-1815 were governed by the decree of 22 October 1768. Each [line infantry] battalion had two flags, one a King´s Colour, the other the Battalion Colour. Both were white. The King´s Colour bore in the centre the crest of Spain [inclusive of quarters of some European territories no longer under Spaniard rule] & in each corner the badge of the king, or of the province or town from which they took their title. The flags were embroidered [...] The Battalion Colour bore in the centre a red diagonal (St Andrew´s or "Burgundian") cross, with stylised branches to either side & in each corner the badge of the province or town whose title they bore[...]Spanish Cavalry Standards_These were of the pattern laid down on 12 July 1728. Each squadron of heavy cavalry and dragoons had one standard, which was red and bore on one side the Spanish crest (as for the infantry flags) and in each corner a gold fleur-de-lis, on the other side a trophy of arms and the regimental number."

The British White Ensign & the Cross of Burgundy

Shouldn´t be deleted the reference to the British naval ensign & its likeness to the Cross of Burgundy as the reason for the design of the 1785 Spaniard red-yellow-&-red naval ensign (national & army flag since 1843 & merchant since 1927)?According to BRIAN LAVERY in "Nelson´s Navy" (Conway Maritime Press, 1989): "The main British [naval] flag was the ensign, whether red, white or blue. THE WHITE ENSIGN WAS NOT YET IDENTIFIED WITH THE ROYAL NAVY, & ships flew the ensign according to the rank of the admiral commanding their division [here the author is alluding to the ranks of admiral, vice admiral & rear admiral, each of these ranks divided into 3 squadrons, in order of seniority, red, white & blue]_thus ships under an admiral of the blue would fly the blue ensign, & so on. It was an obsolete system based on the nine-part division of the fleet in the mid-17th century. Often, it had to be modified in practice; if there were two divisional admirals of the same colours in the fleet, the [commanding] admiral might order one of the divisions to change its flag, so that the divisions could be distinguished in action. In other cases, ships of the whole fleet wore the same ensign. Ships sailing under Admiralty orders wore THE SENIOR FLAG, THE RED ENSIGN. The ensign consisted of the union flag in the upper corner of a red, white, or blue background. The white ensign also had the red St George´s cross on the white background". Anyway, in 1785 the Burgundian saltire was not the Spanish naval ensign.

Spaniard naval ensign (c.1701-1785):"http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:Armada1701.png"

"http://www.fotw.net/flags/es1701.html#int" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 09:55, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

British:"http://www.kipar.org/piratical-resources/british-naval-flags.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The Spaniard naval ensign in the late 17th century_According to some sources, the red Burgundian saltire was discarded as the Spaniard naval ensign under Charles II of Spain, the Habsburg king prior to Philip V of Spain, the first Bourbon on the throne. This is a Spaniard warship from c.1690. Note the white ensign with the royal arms (and, according to some authors, a thin red border or piping):

"http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Martin_amigo-nuestra_se%C3%B1ora_de_la_concepcion_animas-santo%C3%B1a_1690.jpg" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:29, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Carlist flags in 1833-40

And shouldn´t be deleted as well the refence to the Burgundian saltire as a Carlist badge since the First Carlist War?

Note_The rather psychedelic red, blue and yellow cross of Burgundy used by Colonel Urrutia's Carlist band in 1833-1840 was in fact the pilfered colour of the "Compañía de Milicias de Yecla" (Yecla Militia Company) and the "Compañía de Tiradores Arcabuceros de Yecla" (Yecla Harquebushiers Company), local militia units from the early 18th-century.

Summing up: "http://flagspot.net/flags/es%5Ecarlw.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 12:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

"http://www.gruposietedias.com/noticia/10452/YECLA7historia_bandera-n:html" (according to the Spanish Army Museum this was a Carlist flag from 1833-1840 -used by a certain Colonel Urrutia and his party-; in fact it's a militia colour from c.1700) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Note:the cross of Burgundy was eventually marked down as the Carlist flag and badge in 1934 or early 1935. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:36, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

"http://www.carloscanales.com/articulos/historia/02_Banderas.pdf" (see pages 10-12)

"http://balagan.org.uk/war/first-carlist-war/flags.htm" According to the Spanish Army museum the Navarrese Carlists in 1839 gave up some battalion colours (with the mandatory cross of Burgundy) belonging to some Navarrese Volunteer Regiments. The problem is that the Carlist infantry was made up of independent battalions, not of regiments of 2 battalions (in theory the battalion colour was always carried by the 2nd battalion, and the Colonel's colour -bearing the king's arms- by the 1st). There weren't Carlist infantry units styled 'regiment'. My guess is that those battalion colours are from the Peninsular War (1808-14)and perhaps were used by the carlist Navarrese battalions in the First Carlist War (1833-39 in Navarre).

Flag of a Dutch municipality

The flag dates back to 1966 & was slightly modified in 1984. It seems to be based on a former coat of arms.

"http://commons.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Coat_of_arms_of_Eijsden.png" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

"http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Eijsden.png" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:48, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The original local arms (currently used by a shop):"http://www.hetwapenvaneijsden.nl/" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 11:35, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The municipal coat of arms of Sliedrecht was described as a black cross of Burgundy on yellow, but in fact it's an engrailed saltire rather than a ragged or ragulée one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 09:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Another possibilities: Barsingerhorn, Hoogland and Leusden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:55, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

BARSINGERHORN_a former municipality in the province of Northern Holland; currently the town belongs to the municipality of Niedorp.

"http://www.ngw.nl/heraldrywiki/index.php?title=Barsingerhorn" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 11:39, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

As French military badge

Aside from the "Bourgogne" & "Royal-Comtois" foot regiments (units raised in the Franche-Comte, the one-time Spaniard Burgundy), the Burgundian saltire was carried on uniforms, guidons & caparisons (or saddles) by 2 Household horse companies: The "Gendarmes de Bourgogne" (1668) & the "Chevaux Legers de Bourgogne" (1690). In the Franco-Prussian War in 1870 the "Gardes Mobiles" (militia men) from the area around Dijon used the Burgundian red saltire on their peasant blue smocks' left shoulder . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 09:35, 18 September 2007 (UTC) ====It seems that in "Ancien Regime" France 4 provincial militia regiments bore a sort of Cross of Burgundy on their colours: The Dijon, Autun, Vesoul and Salins Regiments.

"http://kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Royal_Comtois_Infanterie#Colours" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:22, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

"http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Image:Gendarmes_Bourguignons_Standard.jpg"

Note: in circa 1778 the Dijon Provincial Regiment became the Besançon Provincial Regiment, Autun was rechristened Auxonne and Vesoul took up the title of Toul (no idea what happened to the Salins Regiment). All of them were brought into the Provincial Artillery. All these militia units bore a "croix endentée rouge en sautoir" on their colours, that is, a cross of Burgundy (intertwined with the French white cross). Google "croix endentée rouge en sautoir".

BATAILLON DES CANONNIERS SEDENTAIRES DE LILLE (LILLE GARRISON ARTILLERY BATTALION)_Former Saint Barbara's Guild or Brotherhood (Confrérie de Sainte-Barbe), harquebushiers and gunners. It seems to have been a sort of modern-day French army reserve unit that descended from a late 15th-century local military brotherhood. Nowadays is a local museum rather than an actual military unit. Lille was part of the Spanish Netherlands up to the mid-17th century, more or less. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:44, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Lille, 1729 (see Les Escrimeurs -the fencers- and Les Arbalétriers -the archers)(the colour used by the Confrérie de Sainte Barbe in 1729 was similar to that of Les Escrimeurs) _"http://www2.ac-lille.fr/patrimoine-caac/sport/jeu/bourgeoises.htm"

Badge used by the Canonniers (Interwar period???)(The Canonniers Sedentaires, by then an anti-aircraft artillery unit, shot some German warplanes down in 1939-40)_"http://www.i-m-l.com/popzoom.html?src=photos/ar08091400.jpg" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:11, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Dijon Provincial Regiment_"http://guyrenaud.free.fr/monarchie_provinciaux.htm" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:08, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

73rd LINE INFANTRY REGIMENT (1939???)(former Royal-Comtois)(inactivated or reserve unit)_"http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/73e_régiment_d'infanterie_de_ligne" (Note: perhaps the 59th Infantry Regiment, another inactivated unit, used a cross of Burgundy as well, because the 59th was the former Burgundy Regiment) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:04, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Austrian Netherlands' flag & Ostend Company (& East Indies and Guinea Company)

"http://www.rbvex.it/belgio.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Ostend Company:"http://www.swaen.com/ostend.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

"http://www.collectievanherck.be/uploadedimages/Van_Herck/inventaris/Tekeningen_final/cvh097.jpg" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 10:29, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

At the time of the Austrian Empress Marie Thérèse the coins from the Austrian Netherlands bore on the reverse a cross of Burgundy under a coat of arms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 09:51, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

East Indies and Guinea Company (Compagnie négotiant aux places et lieux libres des Indes Orientales et de la Guinée) (Spanish Low Countries, 1698)_failed attempt of setting up a colonial trading company, promoted by Charles II of Spain. La bannière portait la croix de Bourgogne et le collier de la Toison d'Or (the flag bears the cross of Burgundy and the livery collar of the Golden Fleece). Motto:In cruce et velerus salus.

See page 90: "http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/rbph_0035-0818_1923_num_2_1_6214" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.148.202 (talk) 09:53, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Saint Clemens's Sea Captains Guild? (Ostend) (I'm not sure, but I think that in 1706 the Spanish Low Countries were under actual French rule, till they were defeated by Marlborough in 1706). Anyway, this painting is interesting: "http://users.skynet.be/bk376542/images/pavillonbourgogne.jpg" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.148.202 (talk) 10:39, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Note: in the War of Spanish Succession the privateers from Ostend -in Austrian service????- patrolled off the French privateering harbour of Dunkirk and seized the Dunkirkers's prizes.

What the hell was the ensign flown by the Ostend Company?

No idea. According to the reliable web Flags of the World, it was the Austrian double-headed eagle (and in fact a Belgian 20th century stamp displays a sailing vessel of the Osten Company flying the eagle), but some time ago I came across on Internet a sort of bond or action of the Ostend Company, and the seal was a sailing vessel flying flags with saltires (I've tried to find out once again that image, but in vain). According to some sources les vaisseaux d'Ostende portèrent le pavillon de Bourgogne dans le mers d'Asie et jusqu'à Canton (I have no command of French, but this more or less means that The vessels from Ostend flew the ensign of Burgundy in the seas of Asia up to Canton in China).

See page 380:"http://persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/ahess_0395-2649_1954_num_9_3_2302"

Austrian eagle: "http://crwflags.com/fotw/flags/be_at.html#oos"

And this??? A red cross of Burgundy on yellow with a sort of white sun in the middle?_"http://wetenschatten.be/beeldbank.php?pic=33214" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 10:17, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Ostend: "http://www.ngw.nl/heraldrywiki/index.php?title=File:1320.aba.jpg" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.61.230.190 (talk) 12:20, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

On Spaniard army flags after 1843 & in the 3rd Carlist War (1872-76)

Although in 1843 the 1785 naval red & yellow flag became the army flag, that didn´t away with the Spaniard Cross of Burgundy. It appeared under a round four-quartered Castilian & Leonese coat of arms on the central yellow fess or stripe of the flag. Even in the 3rd Carlist War (1872-76)some Liberal governmental units kept on flying the time-old traditional Cross of Burgundy, for instance the battalion colour of the 1st King´s Immemorial Foot Regiment (a red Burgundian saltire on white)(the appellative King´s fell out of favour under the 1st Republic in 1873-1874) and that of the 3rd Foot Artillery Battalion(red Burgundian saltire on a sort of purple). Once again, what since 1934 is a Carlist badge was not such in the 19th century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 09:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

"http://banderasmilitares.com/ginde_hasta_gcivil_2.htm" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:24, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Note: These red-&-yellow-&-red regimental colours plus Burgundian saltire were used from December 1843 to April 1931, that is, until the 2nd Republic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 12:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Note: And they were used once again by the Francoist army early in the Spanish Civil War (1936-39). Even nowadays they are displayed at times on army parades. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.148.202 (talk) 09:58, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Sucre & Chuquisaca (Bolivia)

Sucre, capital to the department of Chuquisaca and former colonial capital, is at loggerheads with La Paz, the Bolivian capital. The local flag, flown on demonstrations, is the Cross of Burgundy or nearly so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is the Cross of Burgundy, and the flag is the official one of the departament of Chuquisaca, although lately a flag using the Asturian cross is more common, but the one with the Burgundy cross is still the official one, Jso_1985

I've been told the Burgundian saltire is not the official flag, but anyway it's rather popular & widespread. The local dwellers believe it is the "Spaniard Empire's flag". And the red cross on the official Sucre flag is Templar-like rather than Asturian-like. It appears on the local coat of arms or crest. There's a 3rd and rather uncommon model, perhaps the actual official Chuquisaca flag, based most likely on the Burgundian saltire. It's a sort of broken Cross of Burgundy. And thanks for your help.////P.S._ The aforesaid red cross (Templar or Jerusalem-like) made appearance as well on the Chuquisaca coat of arms.///P.S._Although it is a bit uncommon, at times there's a golden crown in the center of the flag, on the Burgundian saltire.

Well I was thought in school that it's the official one(with a crown in the middle), and also all public institutions fly it, the other one, that looks like a templar one was brought by a historian who claimed it is actually the original one, it's still unofficial but it's the most popular one and the court of justice recognizes it as the official one and flies it.::::

O.K., I delete "semi-official" in favour of just "official". Thanks for your amiability.

"http://www.reflexiones.8m.com/escudo.htm" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 12:30, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Note: Nowadays (2010)the red patée cross on white seems to be the official flag of Sucre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:10, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Flag adopted officially in October 1945 with stylised broken red saltire (and hardly used):"http://www.embajadabolivia.ec/departamentos/chuquisaca/simbolos.html"

Traditional-Fencing Spaniard Association

This sports association & its local branches bear the red Burgundian saltire on their badges. Spanish name: "Asociación Española de Esgrima Antigua".

"http://www.esgrimaantigua.com/AEEALogo.php"

Spaniard Navy's El Ferrol Squadron (1732) and Marines

In 1732 for strategical reasons & for sheer cheeseparing the Spaniard Navy was divided into 3 fleets, one per maritime department. Although the naval ensign was white with the king's crest in the centre, each squadron flew a differente secondary flag. The El Ferrol Squadron's jack was a red Burgundian saltire on white, and in each corner an anchor as badge. A similar flag was used by the 18th-century Spaniard marines (black anchors instead of golden).

"http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/e/es~1732f.gif"

Marines (see "Oficial del Cuerpo de Batallones", the standard-bearer):"http://www.alabarda.net/uniformes/esp/arm/s18/s18.htm"

Flag of Huesca (Spain)

This local flag looks like a 17th-century Spaniard infantry colour. It's square & bears a red Burgundian saltire on a multi-coloured background. Note: the flag of the province of Huesca is different to that of the town and provincial capital.////According to a local source this flag dates from the early 18th century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 12:10, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

"http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:Flag_of_Huesca.svg" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 12:59, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Belgian naval ensign (1950)

According to the official version this naval ensign pays homage to the cross of Burgundy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.84.157.43 (talk) 15:54, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

"http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:Naval_Ensign_of_Belgium.svg" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 12:56, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Belgian minesweeper 'Bellis' (2010): "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BNS_Bellis.jpg" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:44, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

The Burgundian saltire on Spaniard municipal flags and coats of arms (including raguly, rayonny and embattled saltires )

Guipuzcoan municipalities of Antzuola, Asteasu, Bergara (aka Vergara), Soraluze (aka Placencia de las Armas), Eskoriatza & Legazpi. Navarrese municipalities of Roncal (aka Erronkari), Santesteban (aka Doneztebe), Isaba (aka Izaba), Garde, Urzainqui (aka Urzainki), Uztarroz (aka Uztarrotze), Vidangoz (aka Bidankotze), Burgui (aka Burgi), Tafalla, & Baztán. Aragonese municipalities of Huesca -already mentioned- , Lidón & Visiedo. Andalusian municipality of Bujalance. On the coat of arms: Las Labores (Ciudad Real),Sant Andreu Salou (Gerona),)and Creixell (Tarragona). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:42, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

"http://vexilologia.es/navarra/valles.htm" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

"http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:Bandera_de_Bujalance.jpg" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:29, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

"http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Escut_de_Creixell.svg" ( eventually and after holding a populat vote, a flag based on the coat of arms: "http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Bandera_de_Creixell.svg")(this cross of Burgundy seems to be a misinterpretation of the original arms: 2 arrows crossed in diagonal)

This local flag has been misidentified as a Carlist and Francoist symbol (!): "http://www.diaridetarragona.com/costa/050619/un/simbolo/franquista/creixell"

Note: the local football team, the CCE Creixell, bears the local coat of arms on its coat of arms, together with the Catalan flag, etc..

The former flag of San Sebastián according to a local researcher:

"http://www.diariovasco.com/20090117/san-sebastian/desde-siglo-xiii-identifican-20090117.html". It looks like an 18th-century spaniard merchant flag with the local coat of arms in the middle. The current local flag is white with a blue canton. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:28, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

"http://www.elkarkom.com/euskadi/antzuola/cult01.htm" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

"http://www.foro-ciudad.com/ciudad-real/las-labores/fotos/147802-escudo-de-las-labores.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

"Mancomunidad de Cabo Peñas" (Asturian municipalities of Gozón and Carreño)_the badge of the "mancomunidad"(alliance of neighbouring municipalities) is going to be based on the battalion colour of the Candás and Luanco Regiment (Peninsular War, 1808-14). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 09:43, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

"http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Escut_de_Sant_Andreu_Salou.svg" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:37, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

"http://driza.blogspot.com/2010/03/baztan-recupera-su-bandera.html"

Hernani (Guipúzcoa) ? Unofficial or historical flag? "http://www.3digitala.com/es/ficha.php?id=8923" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:11, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

El Roncal, painting by Joaquín Sorolla, c.1911_"http://www.diariodenavarra.es/actualidad/fotosdeldia.asp?id=20071108_arte_2007110801555934-culturaysociedad&fot=2007110801555934" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:12, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Asteasu, Bergara, Eskoriatza, Legazpi & Soraluze: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.150.19 (talk) 19:13, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

"http://www4.gipuzkoa.net/corporac/pre/entidades/banderas/b000017_1.gif"

"http://www4.gipuzkoa.net/corporac/pre/entidades/banderas/b000077_1.gif"

"http://www4.gipuzkoa.net/corporac/pre/entidades/banderas/b000037_1.gif"

"http://www4.gipuzkoa.net/corporac/pre/entidades/banderas/b000054_1.gif"

"http://www4.gipuzkoa.net/corporac/pre/entidades/banderas/b000068_1.gif" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.150.19 (talk) 19:11, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Legazpi_"http://www.legazpiko-udala.info/web/cas/01simbolos.shtm"

Visiedo (colour flown by the Ibáñez's Regiment, Philip V of Spain's army, War of the Spanish Succession): "http://www.aragob.es/edycul/patrimo/etno/visiedo/dance1.htm" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:04, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Valdemorales (1994) (Extremadura):"http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valdemorales" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 09:57, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Alcalà de Xivert (to be confirmed)_"http://xivert-templario.blogspot.com.es/" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:36, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Lidón in Aragón. Origin unknown. Allegedly it was the flag carried by a local Bourbon regiment that took part in the Spanish War of Succession. Same as Visiedo._"http://www.elperiodicodearagon.com//noticias/aragon/todo-por-una-bandera_853414.html"

The municipal flag of Manzanilla (Huelva) and the Triana Regiment

The Triana Infantry Regiment was raised early in the 18th century and took part in the Spanish War of Succession. Its flags -with cross of Burgundy- are preserved as votives in the local parish church. The current municipal flag displays a flat red saltire as homage to those early 18th-century colours.

"http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manzanilla_(Huelva)"

"http://desde-triana.blogspot.com/2011/06/regimiento-triana.html"

Spaniard Society of Vexillology

Its flag pays homage at once to the 1785 red-&-yellow flag and to the the cross of Burgundy: A yellow X edged with red on a white background. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 12:08, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

http://www.vexilologia.org" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 09:49, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Consulate of Bilbao

Although basically a Spaniard pre-1785 merchant flag, the Consulate's flag was glamourised and in the late 19th century many people thought it was an autoctonous Basque flag ("two red harpoons crossed in diagonal on white") rather than Burgundian.

"http://geocities.ws/aingast/index24.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Consulate's ceremonial rowing barge, a.k.a the gondola, c.1740: " http://www.cd.sc.ehu.es/DOCS/ppprrrivate/SAG/WWW/SIZEN/T054.HTM" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

The Consulate was a local merchant and shipping guild. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:12, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Aftermath: The Sociedad Euskalduna Shipyard (1900) & the Naviera Bilbaina Shipping Line (1942), both from Bilbao (Spain), made use of the Consulate's red Burgundian saltire as their house flag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 09:58, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

"http://www.buques.org/Navieras/Bilbaina/Bilbaina_E.htm" (note the Burgundian saltire painted on the stacks)

"http://geocities.ws/aingast/index252.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:11, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

SABINO ARANA'S PLATE OF NAVAL FLAGS_Sabino Arana (1865-1903), Biscayan founder of the Basque Nationalist Party in the mid 1890s, was presented by some friends with a plate of old naval and merchant flags more or less like this: "http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Naval_flags_of_the_World_1783.jpg". The cross of Burgundy appears on the flags styled Biscay, Burgundy and Flanders. Against this context Burgundy in fact seems to be a pre-1785 Spaniard merchant ensign. According to the paintings of the Dutch artist Hendrick Vroom (1566-1640), a reliable source I presume, both Biscay and Burgundy were used by some Spaniard galleons and galleys in the late 16th and early 17th centuries, at times with a coat of arms in the middle (the royal crest?). The flag termed Flanders can be related alike to the so-called Indies Guard galleons' ensign -the Spaniard naval squadron that escorted the convoys from and to the Caribbean in the late 16th century- and to the 18th-century flag of the Austrian Netherlands. The colours red, white and yellow for reasons unknown to me are said to be related to the Habsburg ruler called Carlos Quinto, Charles Quint, Charles of Ghent, Charles V of Germany, and Charles I of Spain. What matters here: Basque pre-Nationalists and Nationalists used to see the Burgundian saltire as an autoctonous flag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:21, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Circa 1935, plate for Ceferino de Jemein's "Life of Sabino Arana", a panegyrical biography. "http://www.cd.sc.ehu.es/DOCS/ppprrrivate/SAG/WWW/SIZEN/T037.HTM" ("Aquel Bilbao de nuestros padres" -"That Bilbao of our Parents"- was a Basque Nationalist theatre play from the early 1930s) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:39, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

"http://www.cd.sc.ehu.es/DOCS/ppprrrivate/SAG/WWW/SIZEN/T000.HTM"

Portugalete_The sailing vessel on the local coat of arms flies the Consulate's ensign.

Rexism, Walloon Legion & Waffen-SS

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/image:Wallonische_Legion_Version_1.jpg" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Rexist Blood Order, aka Honour Badge: "http://www.military.be/blog/2007/09/12/rex-vlaanderen-badges-rexist-blood-order-or-honor-badge-2/" (note: although the Rexist Party was for the most part made up of Walloon members, there was a Flemish branch ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:25, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

"http://larevuetoudi.org/fr/story/parade-de-degrelle-%C3%A0-charleroi-puis-bruxelles-le-1er-avril-44" (German propaganda film, Charleroi and Brussels, 1April1944) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 12:44, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

P.S:_There's a neo-Rexist 'Ordre de Saint André' (Order of Saint Andrew). Still in being? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:02, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Basque Nationalist "Mendigoxale" (Alpinist) Flag

"http://www.ctv.es/USERS/jolle/news16c.htm" The "Mendigoxales" were Basque Nationalist trekkers that took part in Basque Nationalist rallies as well. Although basically non-violent, they were involved in shootings and incidents with local Left-wing non-Nationalist trade unionists and supporters early in the 1930s. The midget independentist party "Jagi-Jagi" spawned from the "Mendigoxales". This party raised 2 battalions in the 1936 Spanish Civil War (on the Republican side). Although according to this rather reliable source the "Mendigoxale" flag dates from 1922, I haven't seen pictorial and photographic evidence of it prior to the early 1930s.(Note: the Swastika appeared on Basque Nationalist flags up to the 1936 civil war, when due to its connection with the Nazi regime became a politically non-correct badge).

Note:Although on paper the Mendigoxale flag was used until 1978, the truth is that the Burgundian saltire no longer appears on Basque Nationalist flags or motifs. Nil. After the Spanish Civil War (1936-39) the cross of Burgundy was identified with Carlism and Francoism (and in the 1960s even the Left-wing anti-Francoist Carlists took earnestly into account the possibility of discarding the symbol). There's an odd Basque Nationalist propaganda picture of a group of Free French "Fusiliers Marins" in the United Kingdom (1941?) with a Mendigoxale-style flag, and little else. Anyway, the plan for a Spanish-Basque marine unit in De Gaulle's service came to nothing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 09:34, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Note: The mountain, sports and outdoors club called "Untza Mendi Taldea (Derioko Mendigoizaleak)" still uses the green ragged saltire surmounting a green mountain's peak on white edged with red. Derio is a municipality some kilometers to the east of Bilbao.

"http://www.untzamendi.biz/"

P.S._Most surprisingly, the house flag of Atunsa, a tuna fishing company from Bermeo was based on the Mendigoxale crest."http://geocities.ws/aingast/index251.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:52, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Mendigoxale poster, 1932 (the saltire looks like black, but it's green)(by the way, my theory that 1923 was a misspelling or clerical error of 1932 is wrong):"http://www.euskomedia.org/aunamendi/6047#3" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:27, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Flag of Low Countries (since the Burgundian rule)

Wikipedia article "Flag of the Netherlands": "The current flag was not the country's first flag: When, at the end of the 15th century, the majority of the Netherlands provinces were united under one lord, one common flag came into use for joint expeditions. This was the banner of the Lord of Burgundy, which consisted of a white field charged with two bundles of red laurel branches in the form of an X, with flames issuing from the intersection: the Cross of Burgundy. Under the later House of Austria this flag remained in use." This is the interesting Dutch point of view. The reference to the flames might be related to the Burgundian badge of the firesteel and the flint with sparks. It should be taken into account as well that in 1506 Philip the Handsome came to Spain with 2,000 Netherlandish soldiers to back his claim to the throne of Castile against Ferdinand of Aragon, king of Aragon and Regent of Castile. No wonder then that some of Philip's retinue -a miniature army in fact- were flying archaistic crosses of Burgundy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:06, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

As Spaniard Merchant and Privateering Flag Before 1785

According to the Spaniard writer & military history buff Carlos Canales (magazine "Revista de Iberia Vieja", issue 32, February 2008) the red Burgundian saltire on white was a traditional Spaniard merchant flag before 1785. This seems rather consistent with the aforementioned Consulate of Bilbao. There was a variety for privateering vessels in 1748-1785, with a sort of king's crest with a four-quartered Castilian & Leonese coat & the ceremonial wreath of the Order of the Golden Fleece (ironically this order of chivalry at first was as Burgundian as the Burgundian saltire) in the centre of the flag. I mean privateers with letters of marque, not pirates.

Corsair flag, 1748:"http://www.todoababor.es/vida_barcos/elnavio.htm" (see "Banderas españolas que se enarbolaban a finales del XVIII") —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:19, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Balearic privateer Toni Barceló's xebec according to a naïve Catalan painting from 1766: "http://todoababor.es/articulos/barcelo-1766.htm" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:25, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Acapulco, c.1742. Note the cross of Burgundy in reverse colours: "http://www.oronoz.com/paginas/leefoto.php?referencia=123521&usuario=" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:07, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Majorca post ship (packet service), 18th century (pre-1785, I presume), an armed xebec (there were Barbary corsairs and privateers from British Minorca)-"http://fabian.balearweb.net/post/20282" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:59, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Today's Spaniard Far-Right

Owing to its connection with Hapsburgian Spain's apogee &, later on, with the Carlist volunteers in the Civil War (1936-39), the Burgundian saltire is to a certain extent popular with midget non-parliamentary Far-Rightish political groups on the lunatic fringe, either Carlists or not. It should be taken into account as well that in Franco´s Spain the Carlist Burgundian saltire was the 3rd co-official Spaniard flag, along with the red-&-yellow banner & the Phalangist one. Aside from this fact, many people think in earnest that the cross of Burgundy was "the Spaniard flag before 1843" (or "before 1785" at times), or even "the Spaniard Empire's flag", a widespread assertion that should be taken with a grain of salt. Ironically, the Left-wing Carlist Party uses the cross of Burgundy as its political badge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

"http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/es}fet.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:32, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Official flags under Franco: :"http://www.sant-cugat.net/laborda/franquismoPolit.htm" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 12:42, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Today's Spaniard Army

I've already mentioned that the Burgundian saltire appears on colours, badges and shoulder patches (with sub-dued versions for battle dresses' shoulder patches & for field vehicles' decals). Although this sample is far from comprehensive, these are the Burgundian saltires I'm acquainted with, whether time-honoured or just new brand: Royal Guard, King's Immemorial Regiment, Civil Guard (Constabulary), Special Operations Command, Volunteer Reservists, BRIPAC (Parachute Brigade), BRILAT (Light "Airbornable" Brigade), Artillery, FAMET (Army Airmobile Forces), Signals Brigade... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:21, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

"http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:Bripac.svg" —Preceding

"http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:FAMET.svg"

"http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/es%5Eregul.html#int" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:13, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Volunteer Reservists:"http://cior.blogspot.com/2007/10/guin-de-los-reservistas-voluntarios.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 12:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

"http://www.banderasmilitares.com/detalle_bandera.php?id=138" (Almansa Cavalry Regiment) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:51, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

"http://www.boinasverdes.org/militaria/uoes/parches.htm" (Special Operations Command) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:13, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

"http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Brileg.svg" (Legionary Brigade 'King Alfonso XIII') —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:43, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

"http://www.coleccionesmilitares.com/emblemas/int/internacional.htm" (NATO RPD-Spain HQ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:44, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Anti-Aircraft Artillery Command: "http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:MAAA-ET-ESP.svg"

Tercio (i.e. Legionary Regiment) 'John of Austria'. "http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tercio_Don_Juan_de_Austria" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 10:37, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

"http://www.asasve.es/portal/index.php?mod=article&cat=multimedia1&article=242" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:12, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

http://www.regimientofarnesio.es/guiones.html"

The Saltires of Baeza (1227)

Aside from the cross of Burgundy, there´s a parallel & former source of saltires in the Castilian heraldic tradition: the battle of Baeza (Andalusia) against the Moorish in 1227. Either legend or fact, the lineages & territorial levies that took part in the storming of Baeza on Saint Andrew's Day were granted the right to bear saltires on coats of arms & banners. Some people claim that the the Burgundian saltire on king Juan Carlos I's Royal Standard is in fact an homage to the saltire of Baeza. I think they're wrong, but anyway their point of view, however debatable, is to a certain extent rather popular. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

A Belgian Decoration (1878)

The so-called "la Croix Commémorative des Volontaires de 1830", issued in 1878 and whose recipients had taken part in the 1830 Belgian revolt against the Low Countries. A golden cross of Burgundy is part of that decoration or medal.

"http://www.arquebusiers.be/distinctions.htm"

Carlos Quinto's Order of the Cross of Burgundy, aka Order of Tunis (1535)

Emperor Charles I of Spain & V of Germany, known as Carlos Quinto or Charles Quint. Their troops took Tunis in 1535 to back up a local ally. The Emperor founded a short-lived Order of the Cross of Burgundy in homage to that campaign. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:55, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Carlos Quinto's standard, Tunis (1535):"http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/8788/estandar.htm" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:02, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Address no longer available. Google instead "www.armada.mde.es estandarte Carlos I Túnez"

"http://www.infobretagne.com/ordres-chevalerie_2.htm" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:14, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

The order's pendant_"http://www.forum-insignes-medailles.net/t8293p15-vu-sur-ebay" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 13:15, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

A Spaniard Holy Week Brotherhood

It´s the Royal Brotherhood of Our Lady Of the Pains (sic)(or Sorrows, perhaps), whose members parade through the streets of Granada (Andalusia) in Easter time shouldering a sort of huge litter with an effigy of the Virgin, to the mourning accompaniment of buglers & kettle-drummers. It´s a Roman Catholic ceremony. The brotherhood's badge bears a cross of Burgundy. It seems the badge is related to the Carlist veterans from the Civil War (1936-39)."http://www.virgendelosdolores.org/frameset.html"

"http://reinodegranada.blogspot.com/2009/04/procesion-de-la-cofradia-de-nuestra.html" (I'm flipping!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:01, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Leopoldian Sudan (1894)

"http://www.ngw.nl/int/afr/lado.htm"

Carlism & "Requeté" (Carlist militia)

"http://www.requetes.com" In spite of its ideological bias, this web contains a lot of pictures of Carlist flags and badges. The "Requeté" was a Carlist para-military group, and in the Spanish civil War (1936-39) it raised many crack Francoist units. See "Banderas del Requeté", that is to say, Requeté's flags. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Philippeville (Belgium)

The local flag bears a naturalistic yellow cross of Burgundy on blue, among other things. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:31, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

"http://www.philippeville.be/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:42, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

"http://flagspot.net/flags/be-wnaph.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:24, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

King Juan Carlos I's Royal Standard

"http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_historia/03_bandera_armada--14_miscelania--02_insignias_jefes_estado--05_juan_carlos_i_es" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:51, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

I took for granted this standard had nothing to do with the Francoist dictatorship. To my dismay, I was wrong. The standard dates from 1971, when the dictator earmarked prince Juan Carlos as his heir. The ensuing Francoist decree made it clear that the Burgundian saltire and the Catholic Kings' Yoke & Arrows badge are on the standard for both symbols are representing the Francoist "National Movement", that is, the merging of Carlism and Phalangism.

"http://flagspot.net/flags/es%5Eking.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:27, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

A Spaniard Commemorative Medal (1911)

This medal was issued with a view of commmemorating the 200 years since the battles of Brihuega & Villaviciosa in 1710, Bourbon victories over the Hapsburgians in the War of Spanish Succession. The medal's ribbon was loosely based on the Spaniard infantry colours from the early 18th century and consisted of a red cross of Burgundy with 4 crowns, 2 towers & 2 rampant lions on white. The gentleman portrayed in profile is king Philip V of Spain (1700-1724 & 1724-1746)."http://www.todocoleccion.net/medalla-bicentenario-asalto-brihuega-villaviciosa-bronce~x11864947"

"http://warflag.com/flags/wss/wssspan2.shtml" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:11, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

"http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/id?87531" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.150.19 (talk) 18:37, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Battle of Almansa_"http://historiadealmansa.usuarios.tvalmansa.com/banderas.htm". Philip V's units flying the cross of Burgundy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:02, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Military William Order (Kingdom of the Low Countries, 1815)

A green cross of Burgundy appears between the arms of a white Maltese cross. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:29, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Toison d'Or Foundation

It's an European historical academy from Belgium. Its badge combines the Toison d'Or (Golden Fleece) and the red Burgundian saltire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:35, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

"http://www.chateaudetrazegnies.be/biblioth-livre-Toisond'or.htm" The foundation seems to be related to a magazine called "Toison d'Or". I do ignore if this foundation still exists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:42, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Modern "Ordre Ducal de la Croix de Bourgogne" (1981)

Gastronomy. Oenology.

"http://www.croixdebourgogne.fr/presentation.htm"

"Reales Tercios de España" (Monarchist Association)

For the time being this seems to be a modern Spaniard Monarchist group or society. Conservative and Monarchist Spaniard Nationalism? The group was founded by the Monarchist general Kindelán, Commander-in-Chief of the Francoist Air Force in the Spanish Civil War, in 1942. The miltary ranks are metaphorical. It's a peaceful group.

New name: "Memorial Reales Tercios de España". Although it's not the Reales Tercios de España's badge, the cross of Burgundy is used as part of the badge and flag of each "Tercio" (for instance, the 1st Tercio "King Juan Carlos I" is based in Madrid).

"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMQVjUjuNTA"

"http://www.realestercios.es/principal.php" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:04, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

The Russian Town of Poshekhonye

I'm at loss for words..."http://flagspot.net/flags/ru-76-pv.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The coat of arms and the flag were designed in 1778, allegedly by a certain "fon enden" (Von Enden?). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

King Alfonso XIII's royal guidon in 1914-31

"http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/armadaEspannola/conocenos_historia/03_bandera_armada--09_borbon_3--03_alfonso_xiii_es"

Or rather in 1902-1931...Alfonso XIII's war guidon consisted of the royal standard -purple from the time of Isabella II in the 1840s- plus a red cross of Burgundy. Note the Habsburg-like and early Bourbon-style royal arms instead of the oval coat of arms introduced eventually into Spain by the House of Bourbon.

"http://rbvex.it/spagnastend.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 12:45, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Note: this Italian webpage seems to have made a little mistake, perhaps due to a clerical error or else to a problem of sources. Alfonso XIII's purple royal standard never bore the cross of Burgundy, although it seems that the monarch's own military guidon or banneret did.

Alfonso XIII's Royal Standard::"http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:estandarte_real_de_1833-1868_y_1875-1931.svg"

Alfonso XIII's guidon misidentified as a Carlist colour from the Third carlist War (1872-76):"http://aspa.mforos.com/390873/7190796-175-aniversario-del-carlismo/?pag=9#84315429" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.150.19 (talk) 19:18, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Alfonso XIII as Duke of Toledo

The Spanish king used this title when his thoroughbreds took part in horse racing in the 1920s. His jockeys used a purple shirt displaying a huge red cross of Burgundy on the breast. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.148.202 (talk) 19:13, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Museums of Plasentia- upon- Butrón & Bermeo

Local maritime museum at Plentzia (Biscay, Basque Country, Spain), a.k.a. Plencia, formerly Plasentia or Placentia de Butrón. In principle the museum's flag is based on an old local and merchant flag, with a red ragged saltire on red or maroon. "http://www.museoplentzia.org" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 10:54, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Note: a so-called Biscay ensign (a white Burgundian ragged saltire on red) is flown on board the "Aita Guria", a more or less accurate replica of a 17th-century whaler moored and on display at the Whaling Interpretative Centre (Bermeo, Biscay), a local museum.

Ops, the last gale dismasted the sham whaler "Aita Guria". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:59, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Chilean local coats of arms

Talca:"http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Escudo_de_Talca.svg" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Osorno, Chile, as part of the flags around of the coat of arms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 10:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Valdivia:"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:escudo_de_Valdivia.svg"

Collonges-lès-Premières and more municipalities(France)

"http://www.collonges-les-premieres.fr/21/COLLONGES_LES_PREMIERES/"

"http://flagspot.net/flags/fr-21-cp.html#pre"

MORE CASES_Villers-Buzon, Étray, Écot, Lantenne-Vertière, Saint-Laurent-La-Roche, Aroz & Dampvalley-Saint-Pancras (and lately Équevillon). All of them designed by Nicolas Vernot, an expert on heraldry. And Autrey-le-Vay, most likely. The village of La Desouchiere is still deciding on the local coat of arms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:44, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

"http://nicolasvernot.free.fr/?page_id=242" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 13:06, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Note: La Desouchière seems to be home to a polemical far-right settlement, or nearly so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 10:10, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

"http://christroi.over-blog.com/article-la-desouchiere-41354356.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 10:13, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Maizières (Haute-Saone), coat of arms_"http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Blason_Maizieres_70.svg" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:24, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Offranville (France)?

"http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blason_FR_Offranville.svg" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:52, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

The local coats of arms is made up of the 4 coats of arms of 4 local medieval lineages. The 4th quarter, that looks like a Burgundian saltire, was used by the Parent de Lannoy family. Most likely is not a cross of Burgundy, although it looks so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 13:02, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

"http://www.memodoc.fr/tablesDesNoms-table-154.html"

Guild of Saint Sebastian (Belgium)

Belgian gourmandisers and perhaps re-enactors (and some centuries ago a guild and perhaps a local militia).

"http://home.scarlet.be/jan.oostvogels/devlag.htm" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 09:20, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

There are more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 11:32, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Alfers Namurois: "http://alfers.jimdo.com/galerie-photo-vidéo/" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:13, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

A Walloon Independentist flag...

Lunatic fringe, sure. Far-Right.

"http://waloniye.skyrock.com/4.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:54, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

DONT'T TRY. SPAM? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:12, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Royal Order of Chivalry of Santa María de El Puig

"http://realordensantamariapuig.es/" A cross of Burgundy like that of king Juan Carlos I's coat of arms, who is the order's commander since 1981. This order from the time of the Aragonese conquest of the Moorish kingdom of Valencia (see Taifa of Valencia), and long dissapeared as such, was refounded in the early 1940s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:39, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Belgian Civic Decoration (1867)

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_Decoration_(Belgium)" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 10:19, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Note: there's a similar but separate medal for firefighters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:17, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

A Canadian genealogical society...

So-so."http://www.dessureaultdamerique.org/blason.htm" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:53, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Great Imperial Order of the Yoke and Arrows

Francoist. Founded in 1937 as Great Imperial Order of the Red Arrows, and renamed in 1943. First grand knights: king Victor Emmanuel III of Italy, Mussolini and Hitler. The order's ceremonial necklace contained tiny Carlist crosses of Burgundy. The pendant not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:05, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Anyway, the number of "Caballeros Gran Collar" (literally "Grand Collar Knights") was limited to 15 at most, so that the order's livery collar was a scarce item.

"http://www.coleccionesmilitares.com/medallas/texto/yugoflecha.htm" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:05, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

'Aspa' (Saltire), Phalangist Decoration (regulated in 1943)

Most likely just a basic geometrical design rather than an actual cross of Burgundy. On the left sleeve. The Green Saltire was intended for outstanding Phalangist commanders, the Red Saltire for wounded blueshirts and the Silver Saltire for courage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:10, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

"http://members.fortunecity.es/medallasfalange/roja.htm" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:07, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

FEHME (Spanish Military History Study Forum)

Military historians. "http://www.forohistoria.com/" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:34, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Dutch Guilds(Low Countries)

No command of Dutch. It might be a family flag, perhaps a guild."http://www.willebrordus.nl/huidigevaandel/huidige.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:27, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

"http://gildesintjoriszesgehuchten.nl/home.php?pageID=ges" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 11:21, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

"http://www.stsebastiaanboz.nl/", etc.

"http://www.sint-lambertus.nl/vaandel.htm" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 11:59, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Another Holy Week Brotherhood (Seville)

Another Spanish Holy Week brotherhood, known as "Cofradía del Polvorín" (Powder Magazine Brotherhood or Guild, sic) or as "Hermandad de la Victoria" (Victory's Brotherhood). Its "Guión Real" (Royal Guidon) is based since 1996 on king Juan Carlos I's arms, and consequently it bears a Burgundian saltire.

"http://www.webvictoria.es.vg/insignias.htm" In Spanish the term "guión" doesn't refer necessarily to a forked cavalry flag like the English guidon.

Trujillo (Perú)

An early-style cross of Burgundy on the local arms.

"http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escudo_de_armas_de_Trujillo" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:33, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Battalion colours, Army of Naples & Sicily (1735-1800)???

This Bourbonic kingdom was under Spanish influence. Same royal family (for instance, Charles III of Spain had been king of Naples and Sicily). According to this source, the battalion colours in 1735-1800 displayed a cross of Burgundy. To be confirmed. It might be perhaps a Constantinian labarum._"http://jmurat.xoom.it/borboni/bandiera.htm"

More Belgian Decorations (1856-8)

Commemorating the first 25 years of Leopold I on the throne. Models for military personnel and civic guards (militia men).

"http://jcth.skynetblogs.be/" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 10:11, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Flag of Rebel Quito (sic), 1809?

Serious? Independentist flag against the Spaniard colonial rule. It seems a local researcher's guess. See Flag of Ecuador.

A different interpretation (with no cross of Burgundy): "http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Bandera_10_de_Agosto_1809_Ecuador.JPG". It's not clear if the 1809 sources are referring whether to a white saltire ('aspa blaca') or to a white flagstaff ('asta blanca'). If the 1809 rebels shouted '¡Viva Fernando VII!' (Up with Ferdinand VII!), their flag might have been the Spanish royal standard at the time: the royal arms on dark red. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:37, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Hispano-American Midget Far-Right & White Supremacist Creole Groups...

Mexico: Creole Nation (Nación Criolla), Creole Nationalist Movement (Movimiento Nacionalista Criollo) and White Vision (Visión Blanca). Mexican Neo-Nazis...They are on the spam list, so that there are no links this time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 10:55, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

And Creole Pride (Orgullo Criollo)... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 17:47, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

And in Peru: National Vanguard (Vanguardia Nacional). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 09:59, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

In Venezuela.: Falange Venezolana (Venezuelan Phalanx)?

In Colombia: Unión Nacionalista Antioqueña. Separatists (!) from Antioquia. Green cross of Burgundy, in concordance with the white-green local flag... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 11:05, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

North Warwickshire arms and Unofficial Flag of Black Country

Although this is not a cross a Burgundy, it looks like so.

"http://www.civicheraldry.co.uk/warwicks.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 17:39, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Same for this proposal: "http://flagspot.net/flags/gb!e-blc.html"

Regiment of Patricians (Today's Argentinian Army)

This elite Argentinian regiment, raised in colonial times (1807), seems to use the cross of Burgundy again on some colours since 1985. "http://es.5wk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=229069" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 18:06, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

"http://www.revisionistas.com.ar/?p=6711" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 18:15, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Austrian and Habsburg colours (early and mid-18th century)?

According to the renowned vexillologist Luis Sorando the Spaniard Bourbon armies campaigning in Italy in the first half part of the 18th century seized a handful of enemy flags bearing the Burgundian saltire, for instance a colour from the Austrian Wallis's Regiment (or at least Scottish in Austrian service)and a colour bearing Charles VI's royal cypher. Charles VI, Holy Roman Emperor had been the Austrian pretender to the Spanish throne.

"http://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/28/98/05sorando.pdf" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 11:31, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

-Landsknecht flag (early 15th century): "http://www.ngw.nl/heraldrywiki/index.php?title=File:2214.aba.jpg"

-Thirty Years War (1618-1648), Austrian infantry colours: "http://www.ngw.nl/heraldrywiki/index.php?title=File:2224.aba.jpg" & "http://www.ngw.nl/heraldrywiki/index.php?title=File:2228.aba.jpg"

-Walloon regiment, Austrian Army (1768): "http://www.ngw.nl//heraldrywiki/index.php?title=File:2352.aba.jpg" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.61.230.190 (talk) 12:15, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Mexican National War Flag (1815)

"http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bandera_Nacional_de_Guerra_de_Mexico_en_1815.svg" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 11:53, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Second Mexican seal and coat of arms (1815):"http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Escudo_de_Mexico_en_1815.svg" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 10:34, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

"http://dieumsnh.qfb.umich.mx/primeras_banderas.htm" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:27, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

"http://driza.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.html" (see article "Llegan primeras banderas de México al MHM"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:24, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

First Flag of Peru (1821)?

According to the historian Jorge Fernández Stoll it was based on the cross of Burgundy.

"http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/archivo:Flag_of_Peru_(1821_-_1822).svg" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 15:31, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Guayas Province (Ecuador)

Same coat of arms as that of Guayaquil in colonial times. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 09:52, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Belgian Vexillological Society

"http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/vex-svb.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 10:17, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Front Comtois

Midget far-right group from Franche-Comte in current France. Anti-Muslim and anti-immigration.

"http://www.front-comtois.com/"

Albert Gispert's Theory & Austro-Catalan Naval Ensigns in the 1700s &1710s

The cross of Saint Eulalia consists of a red saltire on white. It was the flag of Barcelona, used by the local militia in the 17th and early 18th centuries wars and uprisings. According to the Catalan Nationalist Albert Gispert the cross of Burgundy is the "spanishization" ("espanyolització" in Catalan) of Saint Eulalia's pennon. So-so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 13:16, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

"http://www.11setembre1714.org/banderes/bandera-eulalia-frame.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.150.19 (talk) 18:47, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

'Cross of Burgundy as Austro-Catalan naval ensign during the War of the Spanish Succession' .This theory perhaps is based on scant evidence: "http://desperta-ferro-ed.blogspot.com/2010/06/austro-catalan-naval-ensigns.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.150.19 (talk) 18:57, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Imperial Hispanic Order of Charles Quint (1987)

Another monarchist association in current Spain: Imperial Orden Hispánica de Carlos V. Badge or honourific decoration based on Charles Quint's arms. A red cross of Burgundy hardly visible.

"http://delegacioncasarealepirogranada.blogspot.com/2010/09/imperial-orden-hispanica-de-carlos-v.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.148.202 (talk) 18:21, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

One of the awards issued by this order -or so- seems to be called Aspas de Borgoña, with Caballeros and Damas Aspas de Borgoña (Knights and Dames Saltire of Burgundy) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.148.202 (talk) 11:47, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

This order -or so- is related in turn to:

Spanish Heraldic Society

"http://heraldistas.blogspot.com/2011/04/diploma-de-la-sociedad-heraldica.html"

I'm not sure about the cross of Burgundy plus what seems to be a J that there's is in each corner of this heraldic certificate. It might refer to Infante Juan, Count of Barcelona (1913-93), Juan Carlos I's father. The late Count of Barcelona's cypher?

Burgundian Re-Enacment

In order of crossofburgundyness:

"http://mesnie-st-andre-1470.xooit.fr/index.php"

"http://www.wolfeargent.com/ordonnances.htm"

"http://www.sainte-croix.be/drupal/content/accueil" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 10:03, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Rassemblement du Peuple Franc-Comtois

Small regionalist or nationalist political party in 1994-99. One of its badges combined the cross of Burgundy and the Comtois Lion's head.

"http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cdb_rpfc.JPG" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:05, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Books on Heraldry: Persevante de Borgoña (Pursuivant of Burgundy)

A collection of books on coats of arms, lists of knights, etc. Spain, 1990s. Collection's badge: A persevant with a livery tabard displaying a cross of Burgundy.

"http://www.libreriatormos.com/iniciacion-vexilología-p-1672.html" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:04, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

A Carlist Medical Medal from c.1873-1874?

-Note:This medal doesn't appear on the list of Carlist medals in César Alcalá's La tercera guerra carlista 1872-1876 (Medusa Ediciones, 2004).

-2nd Note: No picture or drawing available for the time being, sorry.

According to an article by Antonio Prieto Barrio (Carlist magazine Aportes, no. 72, Jan.2010). The Medal of the Royal Military Medical Corps (Medalla del Real Cuerpo de Sanidad Militar).

Obverse_A cross of Burgundy surmounted by a royal crown and within a thin rim in the shape of an oval. In the middle of the saltire there's a heart -a Sacred Heart?- pierced through by a sword.

Reverse_ C7 in the middle of the saltire, Carlos VII's royal cypher (Carlos VII was the Carlist pretender in 1868-1909). On the thin outer oval the text Real Cuerpo de Sanidad Militar and Ilustrísimos Señores Doctores (Most illustrious Doctors...).

My opinion_Unlike myself, Prieto is an authority, but I think this medal is a fake or a misidentification. So far as I know, in the 19th century civils wars in Spain the Carlist Medical Corps was called Cuerpo de Sanidad Militar, not Real Cuerpo de Sanidad Militar. Where Prieto sees Carlos VII's cypher I see nothing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.148.202 (talk) 10:22, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

In 1872-76 there was as well a sort of Carlist Red Cross called La Caridad (The Charity). Field hospitals, dressing stations and the like.

"http://www.actashistoria.com/aportes.php?catalog=6&go=2&aportes=72" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.148.202 (talk) 10:31, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

A collection of Carlist decorations from 1838 to 1964:"http://www.coleccionesmilitares.com/medallas/texto/carlistas.htm"

Page 42 (my guess: that's not a Carlist medal dating from the 1870s): "http://www.wikitree.com/photo.php/c/c6/Von_Boos_zu_Waldeck_und_Montfort-2.pdf" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.37.84.125 (talk) 11:07, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Carlist Order of Saint Charles Borromeo (1947)

Orden de San Carlos Borromeo. The House of Bourbon's fleurs-de-lys and a cross of Burgundy.

"http://www.coleccionesmilitares.com/medallas/imagenes/carlistas/borromeo.jpg" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.148.202 (talk) 10:36, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Very Dubious Habsburg Catalan Infantry Colours in the War of Spanish Succession???????????

They look like a fake, or a contemporary guess lacking evidence_"http://www.11setembre1714.org/banderes.html" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:01, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Guess by Luis Sorando, an authority. See page 29_"http://www.11setembre1714.org/Literatura/banderes/Dragona-Luis-Sorando-Muzas-full.pdf" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.148.202 (talk) 18:09, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Coinage

The cross of Burgundy appeared on coins struck by the Spanish Habsburgs in the 16th and 17th centuries (in Low Countries, Franche-Comte and Spain), on coins from the 18th century Austrian Low Countries and on the reverse of some modern pesetas bearing Juan Carlos I of Spain's arms (1975 and 1998). Most curiously, the coins from the mint of Milan -under Austrian rule for most of the 18th centur and part of the 19th- bore the ragged saltire as well. For instance_"http://numismatica-italiana.lamoneta.it/riepilogo/SW-33" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.148.202 (talk) 09:51, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Franche-Comte, 17th century_"http://numisdole.free.fr/recherche.htm" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.148.202 (talk) 10:08, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Spain, 1998_"http://www.monedasdelmundo.org/catalogo/Espana/f_165.html" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.148.202 (talk) 10:14, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Spanish Low Countries (Philip II of Spain and the archdukes):

"http://nbbmuseum.be/fr/2007/05/patagon.htm"

"http://www.fleurdecoin.eu/images/Lijst12/1212117.jpg" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 10:22, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Burgundy, 15th century_Most of the coins bore a cross fleury or pattée on the reverse, but there are some with a cross of St. Andrew (or even with an effigy of St.Andrew):

"http://chicagocoinclub.org/projects/PiN/jet24.jpg" (incidentally, this seems to be the oldest European coin with Arabic numerals: 1468)

Note: there's was a Burgundian coin called Saint Andrew's florin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:12, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Austrian Low Countries, most of them from Brabant, 18th century (see coins #41,58,65,69,73,79 & 80)_"http://www.coinarchives.com/w/results.php?results=100&search=bruxelle" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 13:06, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Austrian Milan, 18th century__"http://web.tiscali.it/crippanumismatica/offerte/C427.jpg" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 13:23, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

P.S._Maltese coin struck by the Grand Master Ferdinand von Hompesch zu Bolheim in 1798. It's not a cross of Burgundy. See Zabbar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 13:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Real of Castile, Philip the Handsome and Joanna the Mad, Antwerpt, 1505 (earliest Burgundian raguly saltire on coins?)-"http://www.coingallery.de/GV/GoldeneVlies1a_D.htm" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:30, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Albertus[[taler], Brunswick-Lüneburg and Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel, 18th century (????????)_For reasons unknown to me, this German coin bore a sort of stylized cross of Burgundy on the coat of arms. There's a Burgundian firesteel in the middle, so there is no doubt: it's a cross of Burgundy_"http://www.coinarchives.com/w/results.php?results=100&search=albertus" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:20, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Mystery solved: It's a copy of an early 17th century coin from the Spanish Netherlands, named after the Albert VII, Archduke of Austria_"http://www.cointalk.com/t190388" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:44, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Albertustalers from Prussia and Courland (with a hardly recognizable cross of Burgundy):

"http://www.numispedia.de/kreuztaler"

"http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?site=1&sale=15&lot=980" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:40, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Counts of Maigret?

Sure?

"http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Blason_de_la_famille_de_Maigret.svg" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:20, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Surlet from Liège???

Not a cross of Burgundy to my eyes -just and ordinary red saltire on yellow-, but the coat of arms was eventually described as a cross of Burgundy. According to the bourghmasters (city councillors) of Liège on 2 October 1620 (text in a rather peculiar French): Les nobles armoiries et blasons de la maison de Surlet étaient la croix de Bourgoigne ou saultoir de gueulle en champ d'or, et pour timbre, sur le heaulme, Moyse revêtu de la même croix. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:28, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Alcolea Medal (Spain, 1815)

Alcolea Distinguished Cross. Awarded to the Spanish units that took part in the action or battle of the bridge of Alcolea in 1808. By king Ferdinand VII. Peninsular War.

"http://www.regimientofarnesio.es/distinciones.html"

Family Hegnenberg-Dux, Counts of the Holy Empire

George von Hegnenberg, from Bavaria, took part in the battle of Tunis in 1535 and became a knight of the short-lived Order of the Cross of Burgundy (a.k.a. Order of Tunis). In consequence, the cross of Burgundy became part of the family's coat of arms. "http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Hegnenberg-Dux_family" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:31, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Later version (Barbaria -Berbery- was the Order of the Cross of Burgundy's motto):"http://www.antiquariat.de/angebote/GID18373034.html" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:48, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

More Family Coats of Arms

Luxemburgian, it seems_"http://wiesel.lu/media-tags/croix-de-bourgogne" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:00, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Jeanne Hachette's Captured Burgundian Standard (1472?)

With 2 arquebuses crossed in diagonal and in the middle the Burgundian firesteel, among other things. In 1472 the Burgundian army besieged Beauvais. This lady -Joan the Hatchet- killed the Burgundian standard-bearer on the ramparts and seized his flag. It's said it may be a Spaniard flag from the 1550s because there weren't arquebuses in the 1470s -that's false, the Burgundian ducal army was issued with arquebuses - and because the flag is bearing the Spaniard royal arms (or just the Austrian Habsburg arms?). Used by the local Revolutionary female group called Dames Patriotiques de Beauvais (Beauvais Patriot Ladies) in 1790, either the original or a copy. I think it might be from the time of Maximilian I of Austria rather than Spaniard. It looks like some Burgundian standards seized by the Swiss in 1477. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 13:16, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

"http://www.cpa-oise.fr/beauvais/beauvais_1_34/fete_de_j_h_1910/7.JPG"

"http://marquisderabolio.skyrock.com/2557379963-Jeanne-Hachette-et-la-mairie-l-etendar.html" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 11:07, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Bilbao Iron Medal and Former Solivella Fighters Medal (Francoist Decorations, 1938-39)

Medalla de Hierro de la Villa de Bilbao, at times known as Medalla de la Liberación de Bilbao, awarded to the Francoist volunteers that took Bilbao in June 1937. The other medal -Medalla de los Antiguos Combatientes de Solivella- is named after the village of Solivella_"http://www.coleccionesmilitares.com/medallas/texto/voluntarios.htm". They seem to be a campaign medals, or perhaps non-official decorations for volunteers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 13:07, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

P.S._On 23 & 24 July 1936 a group of local Carlists rose up in arms. Isolated -the right-wing military coup in Barcelona was a failure-, they were ruthlessly overrun. In February 1937 some local right-wingers were prey to the Republican rearguard terror. That accounts for the cross of Burgundy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 13:22, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Arms of the Barons Von Lilienburg

Dutch stock. Swedish title. See Juliana of Hesse-Eschwege and her lover J.J. Marchand. "http://lesum.de/vereine/heimatverein/marsselwappen.htm". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.148.202 (talk) 19:08, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Maestrazgo National Monarchist National Brotherhood

Monarchist-Carlist-Traditionalist-Constitutional (all together) association , with decorations, grand crosses, commanders and the like. Allegedly founded in 1962 by a descendant of Ramón Cabrera, a famous Carlist leader who ended up an English gentleman. El Maestrazgo in the 19th century was a Carlist stronghold. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:20, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

"http://fratellanzanazionalemonarchica.blogspot.com.es/2012/03/hermandad-nacional-monarquica-del.html"

Carlos VII Traditionalist Brotherhood (Argentine, 1996)

Argentinian Carlist group [!] named after the carlist pretender Carlos VII (1869-1909). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:29, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Ronda Bullring

"http://1808-1814escenarios.blogspot.com.es/2011/04/real-maestranza-de-caballeria-de-ronda.html". For reasons unknown to me, a white flag with a cross of Burgundy and a coat of arms flies over the bullring in Ronda. My guess is that the colour is related to the local Real Maestranza de Caballería de Ronda (Royal Order or Association of Cavalry -Cavalry rather than Chivalry- of Ronda, who was founded or chartered in the 16th century to drill the local gentlemen as horsemen). The Maestranza in turn raised a battalion in the Peninsular War.

Mercurio Bua's flag

Granted by Maximilian I of Austria in 1510. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:20, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Basque Mountaineering Federation

Same green raguly saltire as used in the 1920s and 1930s (see no.17 "Basque Nationalist Alpinist Flag), but this time on black_"http://www.emf-fvm.com" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 10:45, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

A Liberalist Decoration for the Madrid soldiers (1870s)

Alfonso XII's? Issued by the provincial authorities of Madrid for the local soldiers who took part in the 1872 civil war against the Carlist uprising. The ribbon: A red cross of Burgundy on purple (and supposing the ribbon is genuine and not the recycling of a ribbon from the time of Alfonso XIII)_"http://noticiascarlistas.blogspot.com.es/2011/05/condecoraciones-carlistas-y-liberales-3.html. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:27, 6 June 2013 (UTC)