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Archive 1

NPOV?

What a beatiful one-sided view of conflict... Nothing more than Bosniak propaganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jsvkigz (talk • contribs) 20:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


I will rewrite this article to include both poitns of view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jsvkigz (talk • contribs) 19:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC) This is muslims propaganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.94.149.18 (talk) 14:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


This article is one-sided. It does not mention the crimes that Bosniaks commited on the Croat population (although both sides were almoust equal in commited crimes including ethnic cleansing). It also gives a wrong information about the beginning of the war because it is an obvious fact that the ABiH fired the first shot. It is also not true that HVO destroyed the Stari Most in Mostar. Actually the Bosniaks did it by planting explosive charges which is obvious from the way how theruins falled into the water (in almos 90 degree-angle what is most unlikley to happen if a tank shell would have hitted it) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.145.193.79 (talk) 01:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The sources

There was a deal that the editors in Yugoslav Wars articles use just relaible sources per WP:RS which means ICTY soruces.

User:Aradic-en included local Croatian web portal (self-published source) as a source which is not relaible per Wikipedia policy:

The above source is not confirmed by the ICTY judgment in Naletilic-Martinovic case which explains in details the events from Mostar:

As you can see User:Aradic-en included propaganda the same one discarded by the ICTY (for instance propaganda by Dijana Culjak and Smiljko Sagolj about Vranica massacre. 217.75.202.131 (talk) 10:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


Not entering your discusion with Aradic-en;
  • why did you deleted map of fronts in Bosniak-Croat conflict
  • what are your proofs about Karađorđevo meeting (please also read discusion on that page and see why is not a agreement)
  • there are documents which suport the Bosniak plans in Prozor. Those documents are also part of ICTY documentation (Praljak's defence)
  • ICTY document doesn't covers events in northern and eastern parts of Mostar (there was Croat majority in Bijelo Polje) and HVO contorled the eastern lines of front towards the BSA before the Bosniak-Croat conflict.
  • Cheers.

Ceha (talk) 13:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi everyone. I have seen this discussion and decided to improve the article, particulary based on ICTY findings (WP:NPOV). I agree with Ceha to re-include the map if it is based on the facts (is there any source about the map?). Regarding Mostar events, Naletilic judgment is very good source, and which is more important it is relaible, neutral source (Praljak defense is self-published source, and as such it is not appropriate for this subject, the judgment decides which is false and which is true, by now we have Naletilic judgment). Regarding Karadjordjevo, I was busy, so I didn't check anon's proposal, nor the previous version. But I will give my best to do that in the next few days. Cheers. Kruško Mortale (talk) 21:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Supplement

Ceha, I restored your map. I have noticed that you didn't include the situation in June 1992, as it was the start of the war. According to ICTY:

By December 1992, the situation in Central Bosnia was this: the Croat forces had taken control of the municipalities of the Lašva Valley and had only met significant opposition in Novi Travnik and Ahmići. Much of Central Bosnia therefore was in the hands of the Croats.

Here is the reference - Dario Kordic judgment (The section is called "3. After the Conflict"). So, I think you should include the first frame with the Bosnian controlled terrotories in June 1992, taken by HVO by Dec. 1992. I don't have a problem we the rest of the picture, and it would be really a factually neutral map referenced directly to ICTY source. Cheers. Kruško Mortale (talk) 21:30, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Hola! I was reading Kordic and Cerkez judgment; there are some things in it which are not perfectly clear; and wich are important for map changes:
  • Article in the ICTY clearly speaks about HVO taking controls in that territories, but does not explaines who previously controled it.
  • Those where municipalities in most of which HDZ (which was the main force in creating HVO) gained majority in previous elections or was important partner in municipal goverment [1]
  • And that terriotries where troubled by JNA controled the baracks and strategical points (later becoming Bosnian Serbs Army - BSA ) which HVO and TO (as local forces) tried to dearmed and to took control over territories JNA controled. Also during that time HVO was not just monoethnical, a lot of Bosniaks were also in it (as it was proclaimed parts of regular army units by BiH presedency). TO was basicly weaker formation in that period.
I don't know why as date for begining of the conflict in this article is used June 20th 1992, ICTY documents speaks of the period July-September as Events leading to the conflict...
I'll put sources which I used in discusion part of [2]

Ceha (talk) 00:09, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Also thenks for the link, if you had any more links with which you think that current map could be improved, please send:)Ceha (talk) 00:31, 18 June 2008 (UTC)


neo-nazi troops-a propaganda by 217.75.202.131

Such a hard POV. So much about "neutral point"

Who were those "neo-nazis"?? Were there some "neo-otomans" on your side??

  • ICTY is not "final court" . Its claims might not be always 100% accurate. Remember Srebrenica-what di they decide??

--Anto (talk) 19:38, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Such a hard POV?! Jackie Arklov, Swedish neo nazi convicted by Swedish court of war crimes in Gabela camp...Not to mention 104th Eugen Kvaternik brigade with neo nazi flags etc. 217.75.202.131 (talk) 06:31, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


  • Yeah , one single soldier vs. against entire division of mujahedins -mostly also criminals unconvicted in their countries like Abu Hamza...
  • That information about "104th Eugen Kvaternik brigade with neo nazi flags" comes from extreme islamistic tabloid Saff recently published. Not certainly any reliable source.

--Anto (talk) 11:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Quality of this article

Article is hevily biased. It speaks more about war crimes comitted on Bosniaks than of the situation on the fronts. War in Herzegovina is ommited on events in Sovići village. Which is perhaps 0,005% of herzegovina? Siege of Mostar doesn't says anything about HVO soldiers guarding the lines against BSA, or situation in Bijelo Polje. Kruška, your data of Prozor events was complitely unsorced. There is no data about bosniaks atacks on croatian front lines (ABiH conquered most of central Bosnia at the end of the conflict). There is nothing about that in this article.... Part on the war is the one of the worses article ever. According to it:

  • HVO conquered central Bosnia and wanted to conect it forces with Herzegovina at Uskoplje
  • there was ethnic cleansing in HVO controled territories
  • war in Herzegovina were held in just two villages which were part of greater offensive towords main bosniak center in the area Jablanica?
  • in siege of Mostar HVO war only happened on the west side of Neretva.
  • the end.

What happened to Bugojno, Vareš, Konjic, Travnik, Fojnica, Kakanj, Vareš, Zenica....
Two things which would be usefull in editing this article:

  • frontlines [3]
  • croatian version of the conflict [4]

Ceha (talk)

---

I agree with the article. What do you mean when you say hevily biased?! This article is not based on Bosniak sources, but on ICTY. If you have complaints, send it to Hague. Croatian version of the conflict is ridiculous. It is based just on Ivan Mlivoncic book and Slobodan Praljak papers who is indicted by ICTY, it has nothing to do with reality. Just a few examples (read it from the verdicst man):

In Croatian version about Bugojno and Vakuf, January 1993 is mentioned as a start point of the war?! It says that Bosniaks took power in all institutions. OK, but that has nothing to do with reality. In 1992 Croats first killed a hundred Serbs from the villages in the mid of 1992, after that they massacred Bosniaks in the villages of Dusa, Uzricje and Hrasnica in January 1993, and attacked Gornji Vakuf with heavy artilletry, just after ultimatum they gave to Bosnian Army (January 13). In July 1993 Croats massacred 50 Bosnian women and childred in the village of Vrbanja and attacked Bugojno. But were defeated, which was a great surprise. Croatian version is based on Ivica Mlivoncic pamphlet, who testified as a defense witness in Blaskic case. Trial Chambers found that his testimony was irrelevant, was false, was propaganda. If you compare his numbers about people killed during the war with official data by IDC, you will see how big his lies are. 217.75.202.131 (talk) 06:51, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Article is hevily biased because it shows just few events, and does not speaks anything about ABiH takeover of all of those towns (Bugojno, Vareš, Konjic, Travnik, Fojnica, Kakanj, Vareš, Zenica....). After october 1992 the HVO has been mostly losing the war. In this article there is no clue of that. If someone read this article he would stil think that HVO controls Zenica. Praljak documents are part of his ICTY-defence. I gave you a link to croat version so you could have NPOV. This article is about bosniak-croat war, not the war with the Serbs. War with BSA is not part of this article. And as for Bugojno, Croats there were in an enclave, ABiH was conducting offensives in Herzegovina (Neretva '93) and total HVO positions were bad. Municipal goverment was taken over by SDA (HDZ won majority in prewar elections) and HVO troops were mostly on fronts facing BSA, while ABiH had most of its trups behind its. Main corse of the war is that after october 1992 ABiH is conquering town by time. Perhaps it would be better to put all of crimes in this war in one article, and contain this article just to military strings of events with links on war crimes wich were commited. Because, article like this is incomplete (95% of b-c war is not in it). Ceha (talk) 09:11, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

About the starting date of the war regarding Novi Travnik:

There are two parts in the verdict:

A. Busovaca

B. Novi Travnik

Actually the war started on 19 June, not on 20 June.

In June 1992 the focus switched to Novi Travnik where HVO efforts to gain control were resisted. The population of the municipality was over 30,000 in 1991 and was evenly balanced, with 40 per cent Croat, 38 per cent Muslim and 13 per cent Serb .763 In April 1992 the HVO was established in Novi Travnik and set up a headquarters. On 18 June 1992 the TO in Novi Travnik received an ultimatum from the HVO which included demands to abolish existing Bosnia and Herzegovina institutions, establish the authority of the HZ H-B and pledge allegiance to it, subordinate the TO to the HVO and expel Muslim refugees, all within 24 hours .764 There was a meeting between members of the HVO and the TO on the evening of 19 June 1992. During this meeting an armed conflict broke out.765 The fighting lasted two hours and the headquarters of the TO, the elementary school and the Post Office were attacked and damaged. Units wearing HVO and HOS uniforms took part. There was a report that units from the HVO in Vitez and Busovaca took part.

It clearly states, the armed conflict, not an incident.

Ceha, as Krusko told you, you really have to change that map, if you want it to stay it here, otherwise I will ask for moderation or deletion. The article should be based just on neutral sources, not biased, and your map is not based on ICTY.

In your discussion with Krusko you said:

"Article in the ICTY clearly speaks about HVO taking controls in that territories, but does not explaines who previously controled it."


Article explains it in my above quote:

On 18 June 1992 the TO in Novi Travnik received an ultimatum from the HVO which included demands to abolish existing Bosnia and Herzegovina institutions, establish the authority of the HZ H-B and pledge allegiance to it...

which means the territory was under Bosnian institutions control. 217.75.202.131 (talk) 08:52, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

---

One more thing. Next time when you revert be carefull, because you deleted the sources about casualties:

Because it is considered to be vandalism. 217.75.202.131 (talk) 09:02, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Start of the war: That quote shows that armed conflict took place on that meeting in June 19th 1992. It does not says that it was begining of the war, just armed incident. In the same ICTY document you have EVENTS LEADING TO THE CONFLICT A. July – September 1992 Title. So Croat Bosniak war could not start before october. There were some armed incidents before that, but they are not part of the war.
  • Pre-october state: That sentence shows that on that teritory existed TO units. It doesn't says anything about their controling that territory. That was municipality in which HDZ won majority in privious elections and with croat majority (basicly ethnicly mixed because majority was not large). There is nothing about who controled them.
  • I've putted my sources on map on its discussion page. Please tell me what is wrong in the map? ABiH took that towns on that dates, and before of that they were HVO controled (as you can see from Kordić judgments).
  • Sorry for the reference, I wasn't looking.

Ceha (talk) 09:24, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

---

Ceha, read this paragraph

The ICTY Trial Chamber in the Kordić and Čerkez case decided that the weight of the evidence points clearly to the persecution of Bosniak civilians in the Central Bosnian municipalities taken over by the Croat forces: Busovača, Novi Travnik, Vareš, Kiseljak, Vitez, Kreševo and Žepče. The persecution followed a consistent pattern in each municipality and demonstrated that the HVO had launched a campaign against the Bosniaks in them [8] with the hope that the self-proclaimed Croatian Community of Herzeg-Bosnia should secede from Bosnia and Herzegovina and with a view towards unification with Croatia.[9] (Kordic verdict)

By December 1992, Bosniaks were expelled from Busovača, Novi Travnik, Vareš, Kiseljak, Vitez, Kreševo and Žepče. Before that, Bosniaks were in those towns, and Bosnian institutions were not abolished by Herzeg Bosnia. Nothing on your map indicates this. Bosnian institutions were legal, Herzeg Bosnia was illegal. It is not about ethnic composition. At list, you should paint the map with some mixed colour before december, indicating that all ethnic groups lived in the area with Bosnian institutions. After that Croats expelled Bosniaks. You mentioned Vares. Croats left Vares on their on, Bosnian Army came two days later, without a single shot, after the information about massacre in Stupni Do. First Croats expelled Bosniaks from Vares, before October 1993, when they realise it doesn't fit into their plans about Banovina Hrvatska, Croat leaders publicly invited Croat population to leave the town, accross Serb area, into new-built villages of Bobanovo and Suskovo. You have the whole story about that in BBC Death of Yugoslavia. So how would you paint on your map this situation. They left Vares on their own? 217.75.202.131 (talk) 10:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok. *Title before december 1992 is bad. It should be december 1.1992.

  • As you can see in Kordic and cerkez judgment the war started in october. (title: EVENTS LEADING TO THE CONFLICT A. July – September 1992). Before december HVO and ABiH cooperated against VBS (remember Jajce and other fronts).
  • As for colors even in October there where TO and ABiH soldiers in HVO controled areas. Point is the most of military structures where in HVO hands. Btw, that first map is from book written by Erich Rathfalder.
  • Bosnian institutions? HDZ won municipal goverment in most of those municipalities (or hevilly participated in others) [5]. HVO was recognized as component of Bosnian Army at the time. What ICTY rulment speaks is that HDZ and HVO eliminated oposition. Not that they didn't had control before that.

In short:

  • Map from independent sorce and ICTY judgment which speaks about beginig of the war. Map is perfectly valid (I shoulld changed the date to december 1.)

Comment

217... made a good point. According to the verdict on 18 June 1992 the TO in Novi Travnik received an ultimatum from the HVO to abolish existing Bosnia and Herzegovina institutions, establish the authority of the HZ H-B and pledge allegiance to it, subordinate the TO to the HVO and expel Muslim refugees, all within 24 hours .
So, ICTY is not talking about eliminating oposition, but to eliminate the existance of Bosnia and Herzegovina institutions and replace it with Croat institutions, and to eliminate an ethnic group within 24 hours. Kruško Mortale (talk) 22:02, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


Second. Irony doesn't suits you. Ivica Rajić was a war criminal and smuggler which is responsable for evakuation of Croats from Vareš. Map shows teritorial control. Territory before that was in HVO hands. After that it was conquered by ABiH (ABiH controled). Bosniaks resetled in Croat house etc. That is Vareš. What do you Have to say about Bugojno, Konjic, Fojnica, Travnik which were in territory of Banovina? BTW Žepče was not in Banovina and still HVO held it. As Usora, or Daštansko (smal part of Vareš) etc. Also I would like to call you to stop simply reverting my changes, because there is more data in it than just of this which you don't agrees). Muchas gracias. Ceha (talk) 13:32, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Relaible sources

I would like to repeat it again, don't include unverified claims! The main principle in Balkan topics is to use RELAIBLE SOURCES. Ceha wrote chronology based on Herceg Bosna web site (hardly to be relaible, because the whole leadership of Herzeg Bosna is indicted by ICTY). First of all, this article is not the list of chronology, it is about the context and events within, not just dates. Second of all, Ceha skipped half of the events before 1993 and in 1993. Not to mention that those dates are pure example of propaganda. But I will focus just in 1993, for example, Ceha wrote:

  1. 23.October, start of HVO ABiH conflicts in Novi Travnik ang Gornji Vakuf-Uskoplje.
  2. January 1993. SDA took control of municipal goverment in goverment (HVO is still active in municipality)

SDA didn't took any control of anything (This is not place for Dijana Čuljak theories).

Here is the ICTY findings about Gornji Vakuf events:

In short:

  • On January 10, 1993, just before the outbreak of hostilities in Gornji Vakuf, the Croat Defence Council (HVO) commander Luka Šekerija, sent a "Military –Fighting then broke out in Gornji Vakuf.
  • On January 11, 1993, sparked by a bomb which had been placed by Croats in a Bosniak-owned hotel that had been used as a military headquarters. A general outbreak of fighting followed and there was heavy shelling of the town that night by Croat artillery.
  • On January 13, 1993, colonel Andrić, representing the HVO, demanded that the Bosnian forces lay down their arms and accept HVO control of the town, threatening that if they did not agree he would flatten Gornji Vakuf to the ground.
  • On January 15, 1993, HVO massacred civilians in Bistrica, Uzričje, Duša, Ždrimci and Hrasnica.

Ceha also skipped events in Busovaca in January:

  • On January 20, HVO gave ultimatum to Bosniaks.
  • On the morning of January 25, 1993, Croat forces attacked the Bosniak part of the town of Busovača called Kadića Strana following the January 20 ultimatum. 43 people were massacred. The remaining Bosniaks loaded onto buses and taken to Kaonik camp. The violence continued after the January attack...etc.

I can go like this month by month, if the goal here is to count massacres, for your information, Croats committed 20 to 30 mass killings or massacres, from June 1992 to November 1993. It is all written in Kordic verdict, Cerkez verdict, Tuta and Stela verdict, Blaskic verdict, Bralo verdict, Rajic verdict etc.

And finally, Ceha proposed us to use Croatian version of the war [6], based on Croat propaganda. This is the worst article I have ever read. It is not even propaganda, it is beyond that, every sentence is based on false information. (Just compare it with the links of those verdicts!) For example (as we are talking about N. Travnik and G. Vakuf), look at this sentece:

  • Bošnjaci su napali zapovjedništvo HVO-a u Novom Travniku. (It says that Bosniaks attacked HVO HQ in N. Travnik). But if you open the verdict, you will see that HVO attacked Bosnian HQ. (The fighting lasted two hours and the headquarters of the TO - Bosnian HQ, the elementary school and the Post Office were attacked and damaged. Units wearing HVO and HOS uniforms took part.)
  • The same sentence is written for Gornji Vakuf, Bosniaks attacked Croats, and if you look at those above January events you will see something else. So your sources is far far away from the truth.

When you proposed it, you forget to propose Bosnian version from Bosnian Wikipedia, and then you will have Croatia described as the worse agressor than Serbia. Do you want me to use that principle or to use relaible sources? That's the main reason editors made deal to use relaible source in order to avoide POV, that's the main reason Wikipedia wrote policy for WP:RS.

And yes, you didn't correct the map, so I will remove it until it is corrected properly. Cheers. Kruško Mortale (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 21:34, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Supplement

Ceha, in your last edit, you also deleted a sourced part:

The ICTY effectively determined the war's nature to be international between Croatia and Bosnian and Herzegovina in numerous verdicts against Croat political and military leaders. [7]

Next, time I will report you for vandalism/3RR. Cheers. Kruško Mortale (talk) 21:40, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Supplement

Regarding the name of Karadjordjevo events I have to remind you that sentence doesn't say it was Karadjodjevo agreement. It says secret discussions known as Karađorđevo agreement. It is a common name for that event, and the principle here is to use common names.

I also provided source for Prozor, but there is more prices reference, in Naletilic or Kordic verdict, I can't remeber right now, but I will try to provide it...Cheers. Kruško Mortale (talk) 22:34, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Expeling the Muslim refugies is racism and unhumane. Hower it is not elimination of an whole ethnic group (no matter how inhumane this sounded). There where a lot of Muslim/Bosniak natives in those villages wich were not refugies.
  • reliable sorces. If I used something wrong please tell me about it. That is the point of discussion page, no? Do you have some link in ICTY pages concerning ABiH takeover in Bugojno?
  • Maybe my sources are wrong. In 1990 elections [8] HDZ won 21 delegates in municipal goverment of Bugojno (SDA won 20). Claim that SDA took you can find in this book [9] and it is very common in most of Croatian medias. Do you have some sources that SDA takeover of Bugojno goverment is wrong ?
  • I gave you a source on Croatian wikipedia so you could gather more data. You don't have to take the data from that article, you can google it out:) It is just important that this article covers events which are missing in it.
  • I appology for deletion.
  • Karađorđevo agrement is perhaps known as that in BiH but not in Croatia. As here it is not a common name....
  • Jadranko Prlić Indicement speaks of a trial which is not yet over, and every man is inocent until proven guilty no?
  • I changed map


Also I would like to call you not to just revert pages as there were some edits in meantime.

  • You forgot to add adject military to the lists of the victims (as it could be see in the source)
  • To show a sorce citting that croat forces in HVO where responsible for čipuljić masacer

Thanks Ceha (talk) 00:22, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Ceha, you cannot just include chronology in the middle of article?! You broke the structure of article which is supposed to be an article, not the list. If you want, you can write List of the dates in Bosniak Croat war or smth like that Chronology etc. in different article, don't you know how Wikipedia worsk?! And the book, Croat based their article on, is Ivica Mlivoncic's book, Tihomir Blaskic witness, the man I was talking about in my earlier comments. His book was his testimony in ICTY, the problem is it was discarded by ICTY, not just because of false data, but because his nationalistic writting was earlier well known in Slobodna Dalmacija against Serbs and Bosniaks. That kind of source is unacceptable. Ivica Mlivoncic, after ICTY didn't accept his book, called ICTY, an institution against Croat people?! (this sounds much like Vojislav Seselj's argument). 217.75.202.131 (talk) 05:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Ok:
  • first I would like to call you to stop reverting whole of the changes if you don't disagree whith just one thing.
  • Second things like fall of Bugojno, Travnik etc happend and you can find those dates on the net.
  • Third my data is not Ivica Mlinovic, you can see for example that I included data from Krusko as well
  • Forth, can you find some ICTY rulings of his statments that discredit him?

Ceha (talk) 09:48, 20 June 2008 (UTC) Article is basicaly missing one chapter about ABiH takeover of HVO contorled areas; Bugojno, Travnik, Fojnica, Kakanj, Konjic, Vareš etc... Ceha (talk) 09:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment

Dear Ceha, first of all tell me what are the edits you are talking about? Let's discuss them first before including it in the article. Second of all, you removed information about Prozor with clear statment about the source. It says according to indictment, on the other hand you included sentece about SDA in Bugojno without the source? We should user relaible sources, if there are ICTY verdicts, then we should use them, if there are no verdicts, we should use indictments with designation that those sources are indictmens, not verdicts. If there are neither verdicts, nor indictmens, we should use UN data etc. Kruško Mortale (talk) 10:32, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Supplement

Dear friends, since both of you, user 217 as well as Ceha were blocked because of breaking the rules in editing Wikipedia, I suggest you to discuss any major changes here before editing, and to stick to the relaible sources. I will report anyone for vandalism, who delete the source, or sourced sentence next time. User 217 made a good suggestion about creating an article about chronology of the war. Regarding Travnik and Bugojno, we have two kind of sources, Bosniak and Croat sources, both biased. That's the reason we have to stick to the NPOV. Here is the list of relaible sources (NPOV) for Balkan related topics:NPOV sources, you may want to read this as well: WP:RS. In short the list agreed by users contains this items:

  • ICTY court decisions
  • ICTY Self-incrimination
  • Amnesty International
  • Human Rights Watch
  • Helsinki Watch
  • United Nations Security Council resolutions
  • United Nations General Assembly resolutions
  • United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees etc.

Those are the best, the most neutral and verifiable examples.

I will try to find data in ICTY judgments about Travnik and Bugojno. I also remind you that Jadranko Prlic verdict will be delivered soon, and then we shall have a complete events between June 1992 to February 1994. Just be patient. It is better to wait for a few months and get verified facts, then just include propaganda which will later be just example of dishonest media role, when ICTY discards it. There is another important thing. ICTY also have some conclusion about Croat propaganda which was a part of the system (The verdict talks about Kiseljak, Vitez, Busovaca and Gornji Vakuf). Regarding Bugojno, when Croats talk about take-over of Bugojno by Bosnian Army, they don't mention they attacked it in the same wave they attacked Gornji Vakuf. They also avoid to talk about massacre committed in Vrbanja in July 1993, few days before they were defeated in Bugojno. The same thing is about Travnik. On June 4 1993, Croats attacked Velika Bukovica and Bandol and massacred civilians. The attack was launched from the village of Maline. Bosnian Army then attacked Maline on June 8, and captured it. There is a reference about it in ICTY documents. After the village was taken, a military police unit of the 306th Brigade of Bosnian Army arrived in Maline. These policemen were to evacuate and protect the civilians in the villages taken by the Bosnian Army. The Croat soldiers, were taken by the police officers towards Mehurici. Suddenly, a number of foreign volunteers (Arabs) stormed the village of Maline. The commander of the Bosnian Army 306th Brigade forbade them to approach. However, they were intercepted by the Arabs in Poljanice. They took some soldiers and executed them. But Croat propaganda presented it as an attack performed by Bosnian Army and paramilitary Mujahideen in order to expell Croats from Travnik, which is false according to ICTY verdict. They talk about 20 thousand Croats (?!) who were expelled from Travnik, another example of propaganda, because in Travnik before the war there were 6 thousand Croats, and ICTY didn't confirmed the story about ethnic cleansing or anything like that. Croat propaganda didn't talk anything about the fact that Bosnian Army protected civilians as well as POWs, they didn't talk about the fact that HDZ called for Croat evacuation to Herzegovina because they didn't want to live in Bosnia, they didn't talk about massacre committed by Croats on Bosniaks in Velika Bukovica and Bandol, neighbour villages of Maline, four days before Bosnian Army counter-attack. (This is ICTY finding). So, if you want to include Croat version, then you have to include Bosniak version as well, after that Serbs will insist on their own version, and you will get an article look like nationalistic forum instead of NPOV article. So, I ask anyone who decides to edit this article, to follow the rules about neutral sources. Cheers. Kruško Mortale (talk) 21:46, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Supplement

To answer to Ceha's question regarding human losses. It is referred to both military and civilian casualties, it is all explained in the source by months. Second question was about Cipuljic massacre. The investigation against nine Croats is started for Vrbanja and Cipuljic: [10]. Slavko Sakic Ledeni (36), member of "Garavi" unit of HVO is arrested by SIPA and suspected to be one of the main responsible. [11] Anyway, the sentecne included in introduction about Cipuljic is based on month losses in 1992 included in the statistics, to show that casualties were not just the consequence of this conflict but also the conflict with the Serbs, because there are not just pure statistics just about Croats and just about Bosniaks. There were Serb losses in the Bosniak Croat war as well, for example Bosnian Army had a number of Serbs in Mostar who died in the conflict. Kruško Mortale (talk) 10:59, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Hola! Few things that are still left unchecked:

  • 1) War in Herzegovina: Shouldn't the part about Jablanica and Sovići be puted under it's own headline like siege of Mostar? Puting it like this it seems that all the war in Herzegovina happend in Jablanica municipality.
  • 2) Karađorđevo meetings: Kruška did say that they are known in parts of Bosnia as agreements but that is not true for whole of the countries in the reagion. Therefore I propose Karađorđevo meetings also know as Karađorđevo agreement event. That should be correct and also cover localy synomis for that event.
  • 3) Begining of the war: In the source for begining of the war there is a tiltle: EVENTS LEADING TO THE CONFLICT A. July – September 1992. HVO takeovers where not part of the war. They were event's (armed) that led (or where parts of the stream of events) to Bosniak-Croat war.
  • 4) War chronology. Is verry important for the war article, wouldn't you agree? I included Kruško's notices, but if you think that is too much, we could just show takeovers of towns and villages.
  • 5) Travnik municipality before the war had 26 118 Croats [Travnik]. Also there is no mention of ethnical cleansing in the chronology. In it just states that 20 000 croats left and that there were reports from burning objects from Catholic church.

[12] [13] [14] (last one article is most imprtant).

  • 5) Ćipulići: If that trial is not over (or even begun) that is not a valid example. Also are reports from daily papers (24 hours is yellow press in Croatia) valid sorce?


  • 6)Map: Well it is changed as we discused. It begins in 30th of November. State of the front's before it is under question. Most of the municipalities in question had HDZ-mayor or HDZ involvment in local goverment (which is logical looking at the ethnic structure of the area). In the area there was JNA baracks which where abandoned or disarmed (mostly by HVO), and HVO (at the time) was recognized as part of Armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina and also had a lot of bosniaks in it (this claim should be sourced:). As I prevously mentioned map of the state in 30th of November 1992 is taken from book from Erich Rathfalder so it should be correct. So basicly at the time before that we have a list of HDZ dominated (or partly dominated) municipalities which are fighting and dissarming JNA (and Serb atack on BiH, Kupres, Jajce, Posavina, Neretva valley, Livno, Central bosnia etc.) by local forces which are proclaimed regular by goverment. There were also other forces in those areas (TO, HOS, etc) but they where minority all in all. Statment in HVO takeovers speaks about removing those forces (or assimilating them) as well of war crimes which happend with it. Basicaly (this was too long) the question is; what's wrong with map, and do you have some sources that that area was totaly controled by TO.

I expect answers (you can also made necesery edits on Bosniak-croat war page) Cheers Ceha (talk) 14:39, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Also official name of Gornji Vakuf is Gornji Vakuf-Uskoplje. Ceha (talk) 15:08, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Reply —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kruško Mortale (talk • contribs) 16:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Just a few short answers that can be verified by neutral sources, I will answere the rest later.

  1. Karadjordjevo: I added the second name for this event per your suggestion. I also have to say, it is hard to distinguish where it is used as meeting (it is not in whole Croatia, because president of Croatia, Stjepan Mesic use the first term). Anyway, I just included both names.
  2. Map: You should just add the first frame with the ethnic composition of those teritorries in 1991, with mixed population, and the map will be ok. I will support you to include it in the article.
  3. Gornji Vakuf-Uskoplje became official name in 2001 or smth like that. ICTY documents, even Croat leaders in 1993 used the term Gornji Vakuf in their documents. So we should stick to the documents. But if it's so big deal, I will change it.
  4. Begining of the war: ICTY distinguish two periods.
The first period is called: II PERSECUTION: THE HVO TAKE-OVERS. There is an explanation about that: According to ICTY: As has been stated, the prosecution case is that the HVO was the chief organisation through which the Bosnian Croat leadership planned and implemented their campaign of persecution and ethnic cleansing in the area of the HZ H-B. This “campaign of persecution, violence and ethnic cleansing was … carried out on a widespread or systematic basis by various means and methods, including attacks on cities, towns and villages … and killing and causing serious injury to Bosnian Muslim civilians” As a result of the persecution and ethnic cleansing campaign, the Bosnian Muslim population was substantially reduced and relocated from those areas [over which] the Bosnian Croats … and their leaders had seized control.”719 The campaign was implemented by securing control of the territory and then using armed force and violence to remove the Muslims.
The second period is called: III. EVENTS LEADING TO THE CONFLICT. There is also an explanation about that: This section deals with the events of the late summer and autumn of 1992, which led up to the major conflict between the Bosnian Muslims and Croats in 1993.
So it is just about major conflict, it is not the start of the war, but escalation of the war. The war consisted of many conflicts. The major one begin in 1993, other smaller conflicts started much earlier.
This is confirmed in Blaskic verdict as well: A. The Lasva Valley: May 1992 – January 1993 . It is explained that Lasva Valley ethnic cleansing from May 1992 to January 1993 was an international armed conflict. The Trial Chamber explained that the armed conflict in question was an international conflict. In that connection , it pointed out that the objectives of the Croatian nationalists in Croatia were clearly shared by many members of the HVO and the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna (HZHB): Mate Boban, president of that community, but also Anto Valenta (leader of the HDZ in Vitez and later President of the HDZ for the HZHB), whose nationalistic writings were revealing; Ignac Kostroman (Secretary-General of the HZHB) and Dario Kordic whose speeches inflamed the Bosnian Croats.

Cheers. Kruško Mortale (talk) 16:01, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Hola! Few things that are still left unchecked:

  • 2) Karađorđevo meetings: Ok, I think the formulation is now good.
  • 3) Begining of the war: Ok, June 19th 1992.
  • 7) Map: It is an military map, not an ethnical one. However you have got on [15] ethnical map of BiH in 1991 which you can put in article below Vance-Owen peace plan. I think that should be enough?

Still waiting rest of the responces Ceha (talk) 20:09, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello Ceha. Regarding the map, it could be temporarily solution. I am not very good with maps, so you can include those maps per your suggestion, still I think it would be the best to add the frame in the map before the war, because the HVO didn't solely control the territory before December 1992, it was under Bosnian Army control as well, as it is suggested in the verdict. Anyway, we can discuss about that some other time, for now I accept your proposal. Regarding Travnik events, and June offensives, I included those parts based on Dario Kordic and Mario Cerkez judgment. I hope, we shall get more information about the events with Jadranko Prlic verdict in a few months. There is also the October offensives part I have to include, but later, as soon as I find some time. After completion of the article, we shall be able to write verified, checked, relaible chronology in a separate article suggested by User 217, with the link in "See Also" section. Cheers. Kruško Mortale (talk) 23:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Maps added. As you can see map of ethnic situation in 1991 would preaty good describe the situation. Three things still to go:

  • 1) War in Herzegovina: Puting part about Sovići under Jablanica title, similar to Mostar events, cause neather of them do not cover whole of Herzegovina.
  • 5) Ćipulići: As discussed before, that is not a valid example (or source)
  • 8) also Gornji Vakuf-Uskoplje should be puted in the article (as that is official name of the town).


also in the ICTY report is also some data which should be included in article: "On 10 June , they reported that heavy fighting had broken out in Kakanj, and that Britbat had established a “protective presence” in Guca Gora, where 186 people (mainly Croat women and children) were sheltered in a church. UNPROFOR evacuation transported the people to Nova Bila.1463 On 14 June 1993, UNPROFOR headquarters reported that the ABiH had decided to find its own solution in Central Bosnia, noting that “Ethnic cleansing, theft, looting and executions have been the principle (sic) characteristics of the last few days. " Ceha (talk) 23:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

1) Herzegovina. Unfortunately I cannot change geography? Jablanica is located in Herzegovina, it is in its northern part, but still Herzegovina. According to the findings, the troops that participated in the attack were from Herzegovina as well:

The documentary evidence considered in its entirety proves that Mladen Naletilic strategically planned and conducted the attack on Sovici/Doljani as commander of all troops deployed for this purpose. The Chamber is satisfied that the units acting in concert under Mladen Naletilic’s command included, in addition to the KB Siroki Brijeg and the Baja Kraljevic ATG, the 3rd Mijat Tomic Battalion of the HVO Brigade Herceg Stjepan, commanded by Stipe Pole, and the 4th Posusje Battalion of the HVO Brigade Kralj Tomislav, commanded by Ivan Bago [16]

HVO also created operative zones of Herzegovina such as the Northwest Herzegovina operative zone (Orasje) commanded by Zeljko Siljeg, the Southwest Herzegovina operative zone (Tomislavgrad) commanded first by Miljenko Lasic and then by Obradovic and the Southeast Herzegovina operative zone (Mostar) commanded by Miljenko Lasic. Jablanica was under Southeast Herzegovina operative zone. Here is the quote:

An order, dated 15 April 1993, shows that Mladen Naletilic was involved in the planning of the attack.363 Pursuant to an agreement with Miljenko Lasic, commander of the Southeast Herzegovina operative zone, “co-ordinator for Herzeg-Bosna, Mladen Naletilic Tuta” and “representatives of the Main Staff, colonel Ivan Andabak” Ivan Bago, commander of the 4th Posusje Battalion,364 ordered for the same day troops to be deployed at Sovicka Vrata, which is approximately 2.5 km away from Risovac.365

So, I think it is the best to leave this title, it is according to documents, and facts. But, I will try to add other important military events from Naletilic and Martinovic judgement to cover other parts of Herzegovina as well.

2) The source about Cipuljic is just an example to confirm the fact that Serb casualties are included in IDC results of Central Bosnia region as well. It is not the source to validate identity of the criminals who did it. Slavko Sakic is suspected, but not convicted yet. But I will remove mentioning the Croat forces, until the verdict is reached. I think it is a fair solution. Kruško Mortale (talk) 23:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

3) I will put Gornji V-Uskoplje in the introduction (because the statistics about causalties is from 2007), and leave Gornji Vakuf name in war timeline (1992 and 1993) because it was the name used by both HVO and Army, and international observers. The terms should be used in historical context. For instance, Salona is the name used in the context of Roman Empire, and Split is the name used in the context of Modern Croatia, both referred to the same location. Kruško Mortale (talk) 23:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Regarding your comment about other reports, I didn't include all events because of many reasons. First of all, the verdict clarifies it was the defence thesis (On the other hand, the Defence relies on an UNPROFOR...), and as you know, in the disposition of the verdict, the defence case is rejected, because many reports are taken out of the context. For instance, the quote from the report "ethnic cleansing, theft, looting and executions have been the principle characteristics of the last few days" is not precisely addressed to anyone, it was general description of the situation in Central Bosnia. That's the reason ICTY accepted ECMM Report because it was more precise description of the situation with the observers who investigated the situation on the place of event (it is in the first paragraph), and that is the reason ICTY emphasized UNPROFOR report as part of the Defence strategy, on the other hand. The second reason I didn't include many other events lies in the fact I stick to the military course of the war, I didn't want to bury the point and course of the war with so many dates, and the point is clearly stressed, Bosnian Army attacked Croat forces in Travnik and had taken it. I also avoided to mention massacres on civilians by Croats in Velika Bukovica and Bandol just before the attack on June 4, although I can source it, but as it is not mentioned in this particular verdict I didn't mention it, and it would change the nature of the attack. I also just included two paragraphs about Lasva Valley cleansing, although there were at lest 40 important dates related to 40 different locations, battles, killings: April 10 (1992) May 10, May 11, May 14, May 20, May 22 (1992) April 3, April 4, April 14, April 18 (1993) etc. Anyway, I think we made a good progress. I will continue with the article later...Cheers. Kruško Mortale (talk) 23:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

1) Part about Jablanica was just that Herzegovian front is a little more than just it. Perhaps it should also cover events in Konjic, Stolac and Prozor-Rama? 2) Ok. 3) That's ok. Yes, article had been somewhat improved. Ceha (talk) 21:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

map problem

I have removed the map with no source. This is the only article on the english wikipedia that has this problematic map. For more information, go to [17]. In the link there is damning proof how the map is totally wrong. Cheers. (LAz17 (talk) 20:30, 20 November 2009 (UTC)).

Map has the source. It is the census of BiH in 1991. It can clearly be seen on [18].
--Čeha (razgovor) 00:11, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
The source is a deleted image. So, stop lying. (LAz17 (talk) 02:23, 23 November 2009 (UTC)).
Everything is obvious from the discussion(s), and the only liar here is you, dear Laz:). Also it is interesting that from your first statment I have removed the map with no source. we had now past to the realm of The source is a deleted image. That consistency talks a lot about you, Laz. --Čeha (razgovor) 09:26, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
Don't keep one discussion on two pages. Please. [19] (LAz17 (talk) 17:03, 23 November 2009 (UTC)).
Yes, everything what has been needed to say is here [20] --Čeha (razgovor) 18:51, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Result of the war

Producer, how can you put result of the war bosnian wictory when by washington agreement outcome was creation of a new entity(Federation of BiH) in wich goverment both sides puted it's men? --Čeha (razgovor) 00:11, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

What are you talking about? IP added that and I reverted him so it says stalemate. [21] ◅ P R O D U C E R (TALK) 01:26, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, my error. --Čeha (razgovor) 09:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

RfC: Shouldn't this map be included in article?

It is a ethnic map BiHSimplifiedEthnic1991.gif of the area. User Laz thinks contrary. Čeha (razgovor) 16:03, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Map is extremely inappropriate due to countless errors. (LAz17 (talk) 17:52, 26 November 2009 (UTC)).
That's nationalistic POV. --Čeha (razgovor) 23:48, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Your map is, yes. (LAz17 (talk) 01:26, 27 November 2009 (UTC)).
Your stalking and lying. --Čeha (razgovor) 08:46, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

International conflict ?

"The ICTY effectively determined the war's nature to be international between Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina in numerous verdicts against Croat political and military leaders.[3]"

Verdicts against Bosnian-Croat political and military leaders cannot determine war as international. That can be determined only by eventual verdicts against croatian administration, and none such trial takes place in ICTY today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ozapa (talk • contribs) 11:20, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


Bosnian warcrimes?

The Bosnian warcrimes are missing, only the Croatian warcrimes are listed. This artice should include war crimes made by Bosnians(muslims) and maybe warcrimes from Jihad soldiers, which have been fighting with the bosnians. Another fact would be very interesting too- Croats, which have been banned from middle Bosnia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.108.61.60 (talk) 16:05, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Belligerents - Croatian Defence Forces?

HOS (Croatian Defence Forces) didn't participate in this conflict. HOS was dissolved before the escalation of conflicts between the Croats and the Muslims.--89.172.207.182 (talk) 17:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Armed conflict broke out among Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina in the summer of 1992 between the HVO and the HOS. The HVO favoured an ethnic partition of the republic while the HOS fought together with Muslims for the territorial integrity of the state. One of the primary pro-union Croat leaders, Blaž Kraljević (leader of the HOS armed group) was killed by HVO soldiers in August 1992, leading to the dissolution of the primary group in support of a Bosniak-Croat alliance.
See Lukic, Reneo; Lynch, Allen (1996). Europe From the Balkans to the Urals: The Disintegration of Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union. Oxford University Press. p. 215. -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 14:28, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
I respect the source, but also agree to some degree with (User:89.172.207.182). There were no battles between HVO and HOS, but there were many armed incidents. Blaz Kraljevic was not the only one who was killed, Zvonimir Fontana from Central Bosnia was also killed by Garavi HVO unit from Bugojno, and many others who opposed division of BH. Alan.Ford.Jn (talk) 21:35, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
As Alan.Ford.Jn says, there were no battles between the HVO and the HOS. After Blaž Kraljević's death, the HOS was disbanded, so it's impossible that the HOS participated in the Croat–Bosniak War.--161.53.27.4 (talk) 09:59, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
This statement "Armed conflict broke out among Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina in the summer of 1992 between the HVO and the HOS" proves only that the author of the book hasn't studied this subject very much. The HOS never fired a single bullet at the HVO during its existence. The only conflict between the HOS and the HVO was the single incident when Blaž Kraljević was killed, and after that, the HOS was peacefully disbanded.--161.53.27.4 (talk) 08:22, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
It's the word of an anonymous IP who calls others "Yugoslavian fascists" (lol) against the word of an Oxford publication. -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 09:55, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
"Oxford", wow, should I be impressed? No one is unmistakable, not even Universitas Oxoniensis. And the fact is that HOS never participated in the Croat-Bosniak War.--161.53.27.4 (talk) 11:47, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

If you say the reference is wrong 161.53.27.4 - find a better one. The information you are removing is sourced. Please stop edit-warring to remove it or I shall protect the page. If what you say is correct it should be easy to find a decent scholalry source which supports your view. Wikipedia is written from sources. Fainites barleyscribs 19:38, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, I can't provide you with the sources in English, but I can find military documents of the HVO and the Armija BiH which will prove that the HOS was absorbed into the HVO and the Armija BiH before the escalation of conflicts between the Bosnian Croats and the Bosniaks.--161.53.27.4 (talk) 07:39, 27 January 2011 (UTC)Al Capone
See Wikipedia's policy regarding primary-source material and their analysis by editors. (WP:OR WP:PRIMARY)
Just so we're on the same page, when do you believe the Croat-Bosniak war started and when the HOS was disbanded?-- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 10:30, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
161, has nobody written up on this yet? Is there nothing published where historians or current affairs writers have gone through the documents you have access to? Fainites barleyscribs 10:58, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
These documents are available for all [22].
Document number 1 Sefer Halilović's order to all units of HOS in Konjic, Jablanica and Prozor to come under the command of the ARBiH 15.08.1992
Document number 2 The order of HVO colonel Drago Poljak to the Mostar HOS unit to join the HVO 4.09.1992
Document number 3 The letter from general Ante Prkačin to Bruno Stojić, defence minister of Herzeg-Bosnia. Prkačin was a general of HOS but he joined the HVO after the dissoultion of HOS in Herzegovina. The letter is dated on 9.11.1992
Document number 4 Ignac Koštroman advises to Mate Boban, president of Herceg Bosnia, to go on a meeting with the commander of HOS from Zenica to talk about the joining of his unit to HVO 11.12.1992.
As for the exact date of the beginning of the Croat-Bosniak War, that conflict hasn't started on the same date in all parts of Hercegovina and Central Bosnia. When Blaž Kraljević was killed, the HVO and the ARBiH were still at peace in Herzegovina, a fragile, but a peace nonetheless.--78.3.119.103 (talk) 12:12, 27 January 2011 (UTC)Al Capone
Looking in Sabrina Ramet, The Three Yugoslavias, it is put in the context of Tudjman's territorial ambitions for Croatia. She cites first, Tudjman engineering the removal of Stjepan Kljuic because he called for Croats in H-B to loyally support the elected government. Then, when the HOS embraced the cause of Bosnia's territorial integrity and made "common cause" with the Bosniaks, it "came into conflict with with the...HVO" soon after Kljuic was pushed aside. She then says the situation was "resolved to Tudjman's satisfaction when HOS commander Blaz Kraljevic and eight of his staff were assassinated by HVO troops.....". Regarding anything earlier she says "the conflict (between Croat and Muslim forces) broke out as early as October 1992. There had been some clashes even earlier between Croation and Muslim paramilitaries, especially in and around Sarajevo, apparently sparked by disagreements concerning the division of black-market goods but it was only in October that there was sustained military fire between the two sides". This passage then refers to the respective strengths of the HVO and the Bosnian Army, presumably referring to the "two sides" from October 1992. The HOS as I understand it were the paramilitary wing of Parag's Croatian party of Right. She also describes the HVO as a paramilitary force, set up in 1992. This information is all under "The Croat-Muslim War (October 1992-February 1994)" starting on page 433. She sets out in some detail the cynical, goal-driven efforts to spark ethnic hatred between Bosnians of different ethnicity.
So in summary she is saying that pre-October 1992 there were paramilitary clashes over black-market goods, and then the "coming into conflict after they made common cause...", between the HVO and the HOS, after Kljuic was pushed aside, then the assassination. She doesn't say what the remnants of the HOS did after that. The ssustained military fire in October is between the HVO and Bosnian forces. Hope this helps.Fainites barleyscribs 12:21, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't have the Oxford puiblication. Could someone set out precisely what the source says on this point if it's not too much trouble? Thanks. Fainites barleyscribs 12:47, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Excerpt: "Armed conflict among Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina flared up briefly in the summer of 1992, when two Croatian militias, the HVO and the HOS, clashed with each other. The HVO was in favour of partitioning the republic along ethnic lines, while the HOS aimed for maintaining the territorial integrity of the state, and fought together with Muslims towards that end. As noted, this conflict ended with the assassination of the HOS commander and his closest associates, and the rapid absorption of HOS units by the HVO or their dissolution." -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 12:55, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. (There's a mention here in the Kordic trial; (c) Dr. Mujezinovi} gave evidence about Mario ^erkez’s relations with the HOS in the summer of 1992, after the HVO take-over of Vitez. According to the witness, the commander of the local HOS unit, Darko Kraljevi}, complained to him that Pero Skopljak, Anto Valenta and Mario ^erkez were trying to persuade the HOS to subordinate itself to the HVO and to mistreat Muslims.) Fainites barleyscribs 13:02, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

(outdent). Looks like everyone is pretty much in agreement really to the extent that it's armed clashes/conflicts - but not battles by any stretch. Then the HOS commanders were assassinated (not killed in any kind of battle). Then the HOS either disbanded or joined the HVO.Fainites barleyscribs 14:05, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

How about There was a brief period of armed clashes in the summer of 1992 between the HVO who favoured an ethnic partition of the republic, and the HOS who fought together with Muslims for the territorial integrity of the state. In August 1992 the HOS leader Blaž Kraljević and his close associates, were assassinated by HVO soldiers. This meant the dissolution of the primary group in support of a Bosniak-Croat alliance, with HOS units either joining the HVO or disbanding. Fainites barleyscribs 14:27, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Anonymous first stated that "the HOS never fired a single bullet at the HVO during its existence" then went on to say "that the HOS was absorbed into the HVO and the Armija BiH before the escalation of conflicts". These claims are contrary to the references in the article. As the ICTY judgement indicates the war started as early as June 1992 after the Novi Travnik incident. This is same time that, according to the Oxford publication, the skirmishes between the HOS and HVO began to take place (Summer 1992 - June, July and August). The documents that 78.3.119.103 provided don't prove anything. No one disputed the fact that after the assassination of Krajlevic in August the HOS was absorbed into HVO and ABiH. -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 14:30, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Section and paragraph number please on that judgment. According to Ramet - the conflict proper between Croats and Bosnia/aks, as opposed to clashes, broke out in October 92, between the HVO and the Bosnian Army. It depends what people mean when they say "the war". Fainites barleyscribs 14:37, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
My point is that HOS was indeed involved in the "escalation of conflicts" and not absorbed before them as suggested by anonymous. There were no formal declarations of war against each sides so we can argue about when the war began forever.
Page 153, paragraph 499. -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 14:55, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
The evidence seems to suggest the HOS were involved in the shennanigans about arms delivery blockades and attempts to take over areas by the HVO which would support the armed clashes/conflicts described in the sources. Looks like actual pitched battles and exchange of artilliary fire started after the HOS was gone though. I am hoping that you people can reach agreement on the sources, but at the moment 161, we have no sources that would support your contention that the HOS never fired a single bullet at the HVO. It looks as if they were involved in the whole jostling for arms and position during that period when the Serbs had already started attacking elsewhere and the HB Croats were starting on their territorial aims. (This is not a moral issue. Just from the sources). In the court document the period from June to October 92 is called "III. EVENTS LEADING TO THE CONFLICT". This accords with Ramet who puts the start of the war as October 1992 and calls the previous efforts "clashes", but of the war as being with "sustained artilliary fire" between the two sides from October 92.Fainites barleyscribs 15:16, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
In the excerpt of the Oxford publication it states the intra-Croat armed conflicts were due to differing ideologies rather than a simple struggle for arms. Indeed in the beginning of the fighting between Croats and Muslims, Dobroslav Paraga, leader of the HSP political party in charge of HOS, ordered the HOS to not cooperate with the HVO. As a result he was declared a terrorist, jailed, and proclaimed by Tudman to be a Ustase fascist. [23] -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 15:54, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Certainly differing ideologies. However - all that is needed here is a form of words that reflects the best sources about the HOS and preferably doesn't lead to another edit war such as one about when the "war" started. What do you think of my version above? It's just a suggestion.The HOS were involved in the escalation leading to the full scale conflict, but had disappeared before it started I suppose. Fainites barleyscribs 16:05, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
I think it's fine but the group was absorbed into both the HVO and ABiH. What do you think about a note in the infobox next to HOS stating "(1992)"? -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 16:27, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Seems like a good idea to me. Where is 161? It seems logical that they should join the ABiH, not just the HVO but it's not mentioned in either source set out here. I assume there is a source for this?Fainites barleyscribs 16:40, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
It's because the ABiH only got what remained of the HOS after the majority of it was absorbed into the HVO. [24] -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 17:39, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
This is much more complicated. For the HOS, defending Bosnia and Herzegovina was just a step in the resurrection of the Independent State of Croatia. That's why the HOS cooperated with the HVO and the ARBiH against the Serbian forces. "the HOS never fired a single bullet at the HVO during its existence" - yes, that's true, because "the HOS was absorbed into the HVO and the Armija BiH before the escalation of conflicts" between the HVO and the ARBiH, before the open war between the HVO and the ARBiH which started in October 1992. On the day when he was killed, Blaž Kraljević was in Mostar on a negotiations with the HVO commanders about the unification of the high commands of HOS, HVO, and ARBiH. There was no war between the HOS and the HVO in Herzegovina, or any other part of BiH before or after Kraljević's assassination. As for Paraga's order, he ordered the HOS troops to not participate in the Croat-Bosniak War.--161.53.27.4 (talk) 18:27, 27 January 2011 (UTC)Al Capone
I appreciate virtually everything in this area is very complicated. But the sources indicate there were armed clashes between the two. It may have been a power struggle, jostling for position, trying to get an advantage or hanging on to the armaments factory. However, until you find a decent scholarly source which says they never clashed, never fired a bullet, we are stuck with the sources we've got. They say there were skirmishes/conflict/clashes - whatever. The sources are pretty clear though that by the time the major war proper started they had disappeared. Any article dealing with a war - especially in an area as complicated as this - will have to deal with the lead up to the war. The causes, escalations, skirmishes, alliances and so on. Few wars start with absolutely nothing, then a formal declaration, then firing.Fainites barleyscribs 20:46, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
I've made myself an account, so you don't to call me 161 anymore. (Al Capone username was already occupied :) ) As for the war between the HOS and the HVO, the soldiers of HOS fought side by side with the soldiers of HVO against the Serbian forces, on the same positions, in the same trenches. The HOS had only infantry units, with a few pieces of the light artillery, but no tanks, no airplanes, and no heavy artillery. Also, the HVO was numerically far superior to the HOS in Herzegovina or any other part of BiH, and the headquarters of HOS in Ljubuški was literally surrounded by the HVO. So how could the HOS start a war against the HVO under those conditions?--Calapone (talk) 07:44, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
And one more thing. The commander of HOS in Kakanj, Ivo Vuletić, was killed by the soldiers of the ARBiH. When the open war started between the HVO and the ARBiH in Prozor, the local unit of HOS, led by Marinko Beljo, sided with the HVO, against the ARBiH. Does that proves that the HOS participated in the divison of BiH?--Calapone (talk) 08:16, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
Most of what you are saying is from "Zločin s pečatom" by HVO apologist Ivica Mlivončić, who is, surprise, used as the sole reference for the information in the Croatian version of the Croat-Bosniak war article. -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 10:47, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Please tell us what sources you are using Calapone, even they're not in english. Currently what you say is unsourced.Fainites barleyscribs 13:18, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Here's the interview with major Stanko Primorac "Ćane", one of the most successful commanders of HOS in Herzegovina, and one of Blaž Kraljević's most trusted subordinates. His story confirms my claims, that the soldiers of HOS fought together with the soldiers of HVO against the Serbian forces in all parts of Herzegovina. He also tells that the murder of Blaž Kraljević almost started a war between the HOS and the HVO, a war which was prevented by him and the HVO general Slobodan Praljak.--Calapone (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. I don't speak Croatian but I'm sure it's a fascinating account. Unfortunately;
  • a) this is a primary source - not a secondary source.
  • b) the fact that they fought together against the Serbs doesn't mean they didn't clash for other reasons at times.
  • c) It's not at all surprising that the murder nearly started a war and presumably the fact that it happened at all says all was not rosy between the two.
  • d) it remains the position that if what you say is correct - you need to find a good secondary source to say so.Have you tried google books for the major histories of this period? Fainites barleyscribs 21:15, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
Does anybody know what the status of this UN document is? I mean - is it used in scholarly works? Is it considered acceptable or has it been superceded by better information?Fainites barleyscribs 21:33, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
I have a book "Rat u Bosni i Hercegovini" (The War in Bosnia and Herzegovina) written by a German journalist Erich Rathfelder, which says that the HOS and the HVO together defended Kupres, and how the murder of Blaž Kraljević raised the tensions between the HOS and the HVO. But I don't know whether the book is available for reading on Google or not.--Calapone (talk) 09:51, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
I don't think there's any issue over whether they fought together against Serbs, just whether they had a few armed clashes in summer 1992 as they were on opposite sides of the debate over HB integrity (at that time). Rathfelder doesn't seem to have been translated.Fainites barleyscribs 11:24, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
In that case, I have a book "Blaž Kraljević - pukovnik i pokojnik" (Blaž Kraljević: A Deceased Colonel). The book is written by a Croatian journalist Mladen Bošnjak, who was a coordinator of the HSP in Herzegovina in 1992. He personally knew Kraljević and he was present at the HOS headquarters in Ljubuški when Kraljević was killed. The book describes the HOS in Herzegovina from its beginnings in the end of 1991 to the time after Kraljević's death when the HOS was disbanded. For the HOS subject, this book is the best source for all informations needed. Could that book be qualified as a secondary source?--Calapone (talk) 08:43, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
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