Talk:Criticism of Muhammad

This article was nominated for deletion on 30 December 2015. The result of the discussion was keep.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Criticism of Muhammad article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6: 60 days

Islam: Islam and Controversy Mid‑importance

	Islam portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Islam and Controversy task force.

Religion Mid‑importance

	Religion portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Middle Ages Low‑importance

	Middle Ages portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Epilepsy Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Epilepsy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of epilepsy and epileptic seizures on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EpilepsyWikipedia:WikiProject EpilepsyTemplate:WikiProject EpilepsyEpilepsy articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Important notice: Prior discussion has determined that pictures of Muhammad are allowed and will not be removed from this article. Discussion of images should be posted to the subpage Talk:Muhammad/images. Removal of pictures without discussion will be reverted. If you find Muhammad images offensive, it is possible to configure your browser or use your personal Wikipedia settings not to display them, see Talk:Muhammad/FAQ.

The FAQ addresses some common points of argument, including the use of images and honorifics such as "peace be upon him". The FAQ represents prior consensus of editors here. If you are new to this article and have a question or suggestion for it, please read the FAQ first.

criticism of Mohammed with the divorced wife

Sounds like the Wikipedia-article is taking Islamic belief as fact. I tried to change that to bring critical distance into the mix. That was reverted - why? @user:StarkReport -- Leo Navis (talk) 11:26, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I mean this "The Qur'an, however, confirmed that this marriage was valid. Thus Muhammad, confident of his faith in the Qur'an, proceeded to reject the existing Arabic norms." does not sound neutral; it sounds like what Muslims believe. For all we know, it's a book that may or may not be "revealed by God and presented by Mohammed", it might or might not as well just be written by Mohammed. To write in this style (He was "confident of his faith in the Qu'ran", how would we even know that?) in an encyclopedia is way off. So I do really believe it should be changed. If you have another idea how to make it sound neutral, please change it yourself. --Leo Navis (talk) 15:25, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"I mean this "The Qur'an, however, confirmed that this marriage was valid. Thus Muhammad, confident of his faith in the Qur'an, proceeded to reject the existing Arabic norms." does not sound neutral" No it does not in any way goes against WP:Neutrality. It merely conveys what the authoritative WP:RS sources say. StarkReport (talk) 11:03, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, an argumentum ad verecundiam is not a logical one, but you're the boss and I don't care enough. Have a nice day. --Leo Navis (talk) 12:25, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Leo Navis: It isn't an argument from authority. This is simply how Wikipedia works. The whole point is to document what has been published about a topic in sources deemed reliable, giving due weight to various claims as they are found in the sources, and we have policies and guideline to determine this quality of "reliability". If something comes across as sounding non-neutral in tone, then you can propose rephrasing. One way would be include in the prose an attribution to the cited source in addition to citing it, if it's just a single source saying it. ~Anachronist (talk) 17:57, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Only that it isn't marked as a quotation. It is stated as a fact: "Thus Muhammad, confident of his faith in the Qur'an, proceeded to reject the existing Arabic norms." Why I do not redeem it a fact is the fact that it is unknowable because we cannot look into Mohammed's head. Not only because he's long dead. To give a questionable motivation to someone in an encyclopedia is highly questionable itself, is it not? If that must stand there, at least mark it as a quote. So my argument is one of logic: We state something unknowable as a fact here. The reaction: It aligns with some guideline so it's all fine. That's an argument from authority to me. At least mark it as a quotation, for heaven's sake. --Leo Navis (talk) 15:57, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The statement in question, serves to contextualize the marriage based on the information provided in the cited source. Historical accounts often involve interpretation and analysis

"Why I do not redeem it a fact is the fact that it is unknowable because we cannot look into Mohammed's head" Based on this overthinking, we might just start marking each and everything as quotation not only in this article but in every other articles that deals with religious beliefs which will set a bootless precedent. The content as it is WP:NPOV. StarkReport (talk) 02:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

age of Aisha defence

Can it be mentioned that, in defense of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, in 1275, the marriageable age was 12 in England (ref. Marriageable age#cite note-Stephen Robertson, University of Sydney, Australia-22). Having s** with a girl was 10+. Until 1875, that was the case. Then it became 13 (ref. Marriageable age#cite note-26). So, as recently as 1875, the marriageable age was set pretty low! So, if you look at Muhammad's time, it's no surprise that marriage ages were as low as they were. watermelon66 (talk) 14:22, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If what you are suggesting is mentioned in reliable and independent sources, then you can include it. But this is not the place for original work or conjecture. FuzzyMagma (talk) 15:15, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Does the Quran directly state that Muhammad had 11 wives?

One source in this article cites Quran 33:50 as saying that Muhammad had 11 wives. However, I have checked multiple translations of this verse and I have seen nothing to this effect. Perhaps it is mentioned in a different section of the Quran, but I am not sure about that. Mayhair (talk) 08:43, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of the Kenana section.

Hello @TrangaBellam, Just wanted to say that I don't disagree with your removal of the section, as I myself found the criticisms therein to be meager and limited in scope for this particular article. So, I thought of expanding it instead. StarkReport (talk) 10:15, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing and inconsistency Issues

The source provided for Dayanand Saraswati appears to be unreliable. The citation from Welch in the Encyclopedia of Islam should be removed, as a full citation has not been provided yet. Additionally, do we really need sources from apologists like Geisler and orientalists like Muir?

There is also an issue of inconsistency. In the section "Neglected Legacy," it states that Muhammad left the Muslim community leaderless and divided by failing to declare the individual, selection process, or institution that should succeed him. Then, in the section "Tribalism," it claims that Muhammad said Muslims should be perpetually ruled by a member of his own Quraysh tribe after him and introduced a hereditary elite topped by his own family and descendants. Is it just me, or is there indeed a discrepancy here?

There are also some areas where the content seems redundant, messy, or unnecessarily divided; it could be streamlined in a more orderly manner. StarkReport (talk) 02:52, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While I am addressing the issues noted above in the article, there are a few additional concerns that need to be resolved:

1) I am unable to verify the ""In this reckoning, he introduced-----." content attributed to Christophe Jaffrelot in the "Tribalism" section. Can someone confirm the source? Nonetheless, I don't think it was a critique.

2) Could anyone provide the complete reference for Taha Hussein's "The Great Division" (1966) mentioned in the same section? I am unable to verify this source.

3) The critique by William St. Clair Tisdall in the "Personal Motivations" section is redundant, as it has already been covered in the "Zaynab" section.

4) The Bernard Lewis quote in the "Personal Motivations" section does not make any intelligible sense. It is to be removed. StarkReport (talk) 04:13, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]