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The asterisk next to "rate" in the chart does not lead anywhere.
PLEASE FIX
A) For heaven's sake DO NOT CITE FREAKANOMICS! Ever. That book is controversial AT BEST!
B) If you want to suggest that the "broken Windows" policy is ATTRIBUTED to NYC reduction in crime, fine, but it it most certainly NOT a foregone conclusion. See "Sense and Nonsense in Crime and Drug Policy," by Samuel Walker; oh, and by the way, see Wikipedia's own article on the "broken windows" theory of crime prevention.
If I had my way, all supportive references to the "broken windows" theory would be stricken as illogical and against the weight of empirical evidence, which is why I am not doing it myself. Someone objective, PLEASE, look into this matter, come to your own considered judgment, and fix this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.225.188.210 (talk) 06:50, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
- Please do not write in all caps. We're right here; there's no need to yell.
You are correct this article really has some bad parts. Non-existent links or autobiographies as the only source. Claims that the mayor (dinkins) who presided over the deadliest 4 years in NYC history somehow is the one who lowered crime more dramatically than anyone else in history? It is an embarrassment to wikipedia. AND this false claim is redundant, the same couple sentences repeated over and over, twice on this article and numerous times in others. I put corrections in with numerous valid sources and a couple revisionist point of view pushers are there ready to revert instead of arguing the facts because they have no facts to stand behind. They just SAY they are right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aceruss (talk • contribs) 19:46, 24 December 2016 (UTC) <Aceruss (talk) 20:27, 24 December 2016 (UTC)>
If you wish to rewrite a paragraph in Crime in New York City to change it from saying one thing to make it say the exact opposite, you need to discuss your proposed changes at Talk:Crime in New York City. What's wrong with what it currently says? Why are you right and the current sources wrong? Why are your sources superior? Until you start explaining yourself at Talk:Crime in New York City, I will continue to revert your proposed and unjustified changes. — Malik Shabazz 24 December 2016 (UTC)
OK Shabazz I will humor you here let's see what's wrong with what it currently says? "Under Dinkins's Safe Streets, Safe Cities program, crime in New York City decreased more dramatically and more rapidly, both in terms of actual numbers and percentage, than at any time in modern New York City history.[164]" That statement is the opposite of the facts. Fact is Dinkins presided over the four bloodiest years in NYC history. AND why is this EXACT line repeated both under the Dinkins heading and the Giuliani heading? Why are the current sources wrong? They are "supported" by 2 non-existent links and that only leaves dinkins own autobiography which under Wikipedia rules cannot be the primary source, looks like it is the ONLY source here. Why are my sources superior? Well they are not "my" sources, they are simply 8 reliable sources out of hundreds out there that will tell the reader how crime was out of control before Rudolph Giuliani became mayor. So I ask you why are you deleting my reliably sourced paragraph and replacing it with the non-existent links and autobiographical sourced piece?Aceruss (talk) 22:36, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
Criticism
Criticism of compstat. The figures in way no reflect new york city its nowhere near what is was in the early 90's and late 80's but its not what they say it is. Queens probably has the most unreported crimes because of illegal immigrants. You have Parts of North central and east brooklyn Brownsville, BrooklynEast New York, Brooklyn if you've been to these places new york DOES NOT seem so safe. Sound view BX , East Harlem MN, Far Rockaway QU, Stapleton SI. You might even see a murder occur while you're in these "neighborhoods". Compstat lies to make Nyc seem safe for tourists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.229.185 (talk) 20:36, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Crime is down no matter how you look at it. Yes stats may "fudged" (and they are) but there is a reason for the decline in murders. The 60's and 70's were very turbulent times, murders across the nation were on the rise. The 1980's and 90's had the crack cocaine epidemic. Today many neighborhoods notorious for violent crime have been gentrified, for example Times Square. Crime is still a big problem in certain neighborhoods and will always be a reality for the city as a whole, but it's down significantly. The neighborhoods you mention still deal with a day to day struggle with violent crime but no matter how you look at it crime has declined even in those areas. Bigger problems right now are poverty, failing schools, lack of meaningful jobs and mass incarcerations which may effect the crime rate negatively on the long run. I would never say the city was very unsafe for tourist overall. Even during the 70's, 80's and 90's the worst a tourist has to worry about is a picked pocket and maybe getting robbed in the wrong neighborhood. Two very real possibilities even today.
I would also like to cite the fact that this article only mentions race (of criminals/victims) when they are non-white. If the criminal is black, it is mentioned; if the victim is black, it is mentioned -- but the same is not true for white perpetrators and victims.
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This section talks about hate crimes committed in the wake of the September 11 attacks. However it's not clear that the crimes in question took place in New York City. For example, the shooting described took place in Mesa, Arizona. The only connections to New York seem to be the (alleged) motives for the crimes. I propose that this section be removed as it doesn't describe crime in New York City. Pburka (talk) 11:33, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
OK, so remove the mention about the Mesa, AZ hate crime. However, there were plenty of hate crimes in the city pertaining to 9/11, too, so we can add these. – Epicgenius (talk) 20:24, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Comparison
Where would we find good comparisons against: other U.S. cities, other Western cities, and Suburban counties in the U.S.? It seems that it would be relevant to show where NYC stands and what its crime rates per capita are compared to the national average. grenグレン00:27, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Good question. NYC outpaced the country and all major metropolitan areas in crime reduction during Rudy Giuliani's term. 1994-2001. The year before Giuliani took office 1993 there were 1946 murders in NYC. 8 years later in 2001 there were only 649. [1] That is a 67% decrease! Nationwide the murder count went down from 24,530 in 1993 to 16,037 in 2001, a 35% reduction. [2] Murders in Los Angeles county went from 1944 in 1993 to 1070 in 2001 a 45% reduction. [3] I could post every other major city, but the POV pushers on the main page will delete them insisting "under david dinkins Safe Streets, Safe Cities program, crime in New York City decreased more dramatically and more rapidly, both in terms of actual numbers and percentage, than at any time in modern New York City history" You have got to be kidding. The year before dinkins took office, 1989, there were 1905 murders, when he left in 1993 there were 1946. HELLO that is an INCREASE, not the largest reduction in city history! Aceruss (talk) 05:46, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
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What is missing from this article is reference to or use of any studies or analyses that try to explain either the rise of murders or the rapid decrease in them in the city. 146.0.63.173 (talk) 05:53, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
Should be removed - it's inconsequential. Many thousands of people worldwide can nominate for Nobels, including all members of parliaments, professors and directors of relevant university departments etc etc. A reported nomination (the nominations are secret and hence only claims for 50 years) is pretty irrelevant. In this case it a single, former member of parliament in Sweden wanted to nominate RG and possibly, but not necessarily, got the support of a current MP to do so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:840:F000:424C:0:0:0:2 (talk) 09:23, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
No, it cannot be removed because it it relevant to the context of the article. Giuliani won the prize because of the crime fighting. Epicgenius (talk) 20:23, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
It's WP:TOOSOON to have a section on crime in the 2020s. We're only a few weeks into the decade, and the only information in the section is based on a couple of soundbites from the police commissioner: hardly a neutral source. There haven't been any notable or infamous crimes yet, just a statistically dubious "spike" (still very low by any historical measure.) This section should be deleted until there's something substantial to report. Pburka (talk) 00:46, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
I don't think it's relevant there, either, but I expect that page will undergo some significant editing and rewriting over the next months and years we start to understand the lasting impact of the pandemic. Pburka (talk) 19:21, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
Under the circumstances, I'd thought that getting the section started by highlighting the significantly different influence of the pandemic at the start of the 2020s was both relevant and appropriate. I see that not all agree. J.D.718 (talk) 17:01, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
Clearly too soon. How can we possibly know the effect of a pandemic that is likely in its early days? And a spike is just a spike at this point. O3000 (talk) 17:05, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
How can you possibly think I think I do? It was brief because, obviously the full effect is quite unknown. That there has been an impact already, however, is historically known, and that will not change. The facts I'd written remain, and I expected they would be updated into a broader picture at some point, as well. J.D.718 (talk) 22:20, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
Brooklyn homicide rate
The page says "Since 2013, Brooklyn has consistently led in homicides compared to the four other boroughs". This is misleading. It's only because Brooklyn is also the most populous borough. If you look at per capita homicides, Brooklyn is a bit lower than the Bronx.[1]pburka (talk) 20:01, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Crime rate data on heading 2021 table is incorrect
Crime is classified differently between different jurisdictions. The FBI Uniform Crime Reporting program attempts to standardize crime data between them. Felony assault is not the same as aggravated assault, it is a type of aggravated assault. The NYPD CompStat report classifies rape under the old system, only female victims penetrated vaginally by a male. There are many other examples. The violent crime rate in NYC was 570.7 in 2019 and 577.8 in 2020 according to the FBI UCR. 2021 was higher than both but has not been released yet. Should revert to 2020 until the FBI releases the UCR 2021 statistics.
I notice that some data is per capita and other data contains just the amount. For example the section "Murders_by_year" shouldn't this be per capita or at least include both values? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mitigating (talk • contribs) 12:57, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Crime rates
I removed the addition of "rising violent crime" since the overall story over the last 10 or 20 years is that violent crime is DOWN. Andrevan@14:45, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
I added factual information on the murder rate skyrocketing from 2019 to 2020, "Brothers" had added completely false information regarding the increase in the murder rate from 2019 to 2020. Bill Williams18:02, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
As it reads now it is not NPOV. The general story is that NYC is a lot safer today than it was 10, 20, or 30 years ago. This should not be the story in the lead section. Andrevan@18:08, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
The crime rates skyrocketed as listed by the sources, we already discuss how the crime rate decreased after the 1990s, and the last section is about the current crime rates. How in the world can basic statistics be "NPOV"? What point of view does a percentage sign hold? Bill Williams18:14, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
The crime rates did not skyrocket, they saw a small uptick. You are characterizing it as skyrocketing but look at this graph. There's not a very sharp slope of the uptick between 2015 and 2021. Claiming like this is a huge spike in growth is misleading at best. [18:16, 28 July 2022] I took a look at the sources and I did not see the phrase "Climate of fear" or "skyrocket," the WSJ article does say crime rose, you can state it more neutrally. Andrevan@18:20, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
"A small uptick" are you joking right now? The WSJ article literally says the murders "rose dramatically". The article was completely neutral and purely stated facts, which is that the murder rate increased by 45% in a single year, from 2019 to 2020. If you think that is a "small uptick" you have no business editing this article whatsoever. Find a single other year where the murder rate rose nearly as much as that. Bill Williams18:24, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
I could not care less what you got from eyeballing the graph, it is a massive rise as a percentage of the murder rate, and that is what news sources reported on. You are removing sourced information that was heavily reported on, it is not what I am claiming, but what reliable sources are. Bill Williams18:29, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
I took a look at the sources and I did not see the phrase "Climate of fear" or "skyrocket." Or "massive rise." The article covers the entire period of crime in New York City going back to the 1890s, and you are focusing on WP:RECENTISM in the lead section. That's too much weight for this and you are mischaracterizing what the source says. "Rose dramatically" in a several year period but you are leaving out the overall trend from 1988 to 2010, and to 2021, are about the same. This is the lead section and it's not an appropriate framing for a summary of the entire article. Andrevan@18:31, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
I have not mischaracterized a single source, the recent rise in crime is most relevant to the lead considering it is covered far more by reliable sources than the past rates of crime. You are completely wrong by the way, let me quote some sources to prove your understatement of the level of crime is nonsense:[2] "It's just crazy" [3] "homicide spike" [4] "massive impact" [5] "massive crime spike" [6] "violent crime is surging" and I could go on and on, that took me one minute to find. Bill Williams18:34, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
The first one says "Violent Crime in the U.S. Is Surging," so it would be proper to characterize whether NYC is on par with the national trend or ahead or behind, rather than just stating as though it is a NY thing. 2nd one, "12 major cities hit all-time homicide records," again, not NY-specific, 3rd one, "Homicide Spike Hits Most Large U.S. Cities," again, not specific to NYC. GSU one, I like this one, and I think there's more here that you could use, which attributes the crime to the pandemic and not to NY policing or policy. Surprisingly, the Fox News article is also in this vein. "Massive crime spike stems from social unrest, COVID lockdowns destabilizing communities: expert," though I generally consider Fox News unreliable, I see nothing wrong with this. So, I would be happy to support use of these sources if you summarize them accurately instead of just using them to support the narrative that NYC is a "climate of fear" which is not what any of them say. Andrevan@18:46, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
The rise in New York City has been above the national rise in homicides, so every one of those headlines applies even more so to New York City. It is completely irrelevant what causes the rise in crime, what the heck does that have to do with anything I said or what was in the article? I don't care what you think about Fox News, it said the same thing that dozens of other sources stated. What in the world are you quoting with "climate of fear" that is something I never said and could not care less about. Bill Williams18:57, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
The text I removed said, As of April 2022, the city recorded a 42.7% increase in major reported crimes compared to the same period in 2021, according to the NYPD. That includes a 46.7% increase in robberies, a 54% spike in grand larceny incidents and a 14.9% jump in rapes. Murder rates have also increased 9.2% over the last two years. In 2022, a poll revealed that 75% of New Yorkers exhibit a climate of fear whereby they may be victims of a violent crime at any given time in the city.Andrevan@19:00, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
I did not add the "climate of fear" line and I'm fine with you removing that wording, but it is still significant that 75% of New Yorkers think they could be the victim of violent crime at any time, and that is unprecedented and should be stated in the lead. Bill Williams19:04, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
I disagree, a single poll asking for whether people fear violent crime shouldn't be cherry picked to create a narrative. We need to only talk about these things as long term, long time aggregates and averages. WP:10YEARSTESTAndrevan@19:10, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Agree. Also, I don’t understand the point of focusing on murder & non-negligent manslaughter one year in NYC’s 396 year history. Particularly without mentioning that during that year the NYPD had a very large number of officers off the job due to Covid and the courts were mostly closed or conducted remotely. Also not mentioning that the overall major felony rate was steady in that year from 95,606 to 95,593. In fact, 2020 was the lowest major felony rate in decades. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:50, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
There has not been a single more sudden and dramatic rise in violent crime in the city as there was after 2020, and this should be described in the lead, maybe not with a dozen different statistics, but at least with some amount of information. The recent rise in crime is unprecedented and New Yorkers are clearly concerned with it. Bill Williams18:58, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
It's not close to unprecedented. Indeed, overall violent offenses are still low compared to other years of the last two decades.[table] And polls like that I don't find meaningful. (Not relevant, but I've lived in Manhattan for the last 34 years and this is not a topic of conversation outside of local papers and channels looking for a story. Climate of fear is bullshit.) I really don't think recent polls belong in an article covering over a century. Focus on facts. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:10, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Agreed, I live in the Bronx and I have lived in and around the area for my entire life minus a few years here and there, and if anything, it's much safer now than it was in the early-mid 1990s. That being said, my opinion is not important. I don't see evidence in the sources that this is "unprecedented." It is up from a low number on a percentage basis but still much lower than it was 10, 20, 30 years ago. Or maybe it's getting back to the 2011 range on the graph but nowhere near 1988. Andrevan@19:23, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Your original research is not what belongs in the article. I never said "climate of fear" belongs here, that's a nonsensical strawman. The sudden and yes, unprecedented rise by nearly 50% in a single year belongs in the lead and is covered well by sources. Articles are meant to benefit the readers, and readers should know about the recent trend of increasing crime, not just babble about what happened decades ago, which is irrelevant to them. You can claim it is not unprecedented, but find me a single year where murders rose by 50%. Bill Williams17:19, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
"Climate of fear" is not a strawman, it was the version of the article that I removed, but I'm glad we agree that it is not merited. We're not doing original research, you are the one spinning these stats to tell a political tale of the crime-infested land of NY. Obviously, we both have a view here, but what matters is what the sources say. You offered a bunch of sources saying that overall crime has been increasing in the USA as a whole since the pandemic. How does that say we should cherrypick a statistic of a 45% increase (which still is much lower than 15 years ago) and use that to say NYC has a unique crime wave trend. There are definitely sources that discuss the crime wave, there is also an overall summarization of the trend from the peak in 1988 from pre-Dinkins era, to Giuliani era, Bloomberg, De Blasio and Adams. I'm open if you want to propose some text but the version I removed ain't it, IMHO. Andrevan@17:23, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
There's nothing "NPOV" about the sentence, Andrevan. You do not have consensus to constitute such a unjustified removal, sources and stats override the personal opinion of editors. 175.113.36.254 (talk) 15:04, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
Did you read this discussion here? It was clearly disputed. We can discuss further if you like. Andre🚐17:54, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
Of the largest US cities, NYC ranks 80th out of 100 in murder and 96th out of 100 in all violent crimes. [7]. Looking at a blip in one of the 396 years caused by Covid with its resulting unemployment and lack of enforcement is WP:RECENTISM and highly misleading. And, it's much easier for the rate to go up 50% when it's low to start with. I realize that certain sources jump at the chance to document every murder in NYC and LA. (Dem cities they call them.) Let us not follow that WP:POV lead. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:36, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
According to the link you posted in 2019 NYC ranked 59th out of the 100 largest cities in regards to violent crime. 80th out of 100 in regards to murder. 72.89.83.192 (talk) 11:10, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
The Bronx still has a very high rate of violent crime. It was 928.8 violent crimes per 100,000 residents in 2020 and should be in excess of 1,000 violent crimes per 100,000 residents by the end of 2022 at this rate. While violent crime in the Bronx is down versus the historic highs of the early 1990s, it's actually up significantly this year when compared to the last two decades. In 2010 for example it was 871.4 violent crimes per 100,000 residents. The rate of felony assaults is the highest since the end of the crack epidemic as well. 72.89.83.192 (talk) 11:20, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
That chart is murder, one type of crime. Someone could post a chart of assaults and have totally different perspective as they have been on the rise for over a decade. 72.89.83.192 (talk) 17:29, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
Strongly oppose inclusion. NYC remains one of the safest large cities in the world. A one-year spike from historic lows is not appropriate for the lede and certainly not as percentages that provide zero insight to readers. Also fails lede follows body. WP:ONUS is on inclusion, so Andrevan does not need consensus to remove. Slywriter (talk) 22:12, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
Right. "Incidents of violent crime remain at historic lows in New York City. But people’s views on guns and crime are often more influenced by what they see and hear, rather than by hard numbers."[8]Andre🚐03:52, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
"NYC remains one of the safest large cities in the world." Source? Is NYC safer than cities with a similar or even higher population such as London, Tokyo, Taipei, Seoul, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Singapore, Toronto, Melbourne, etc? 218.40.82.210 (talk) 11:32, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
NYC's violent crime rate is not extraordinarily low among cities. Below average among the largest cities at 577.8 violent crimes per 100,000 people in 2020.
US major cities with violent crime rates similar to NYC in 2020:
Seattle, Boston, Pittsburgh, Miami, San Francisco, and Las Vegas added together have less than half the population of NYC. These are not comparable cities. And you still admit NYC is in the lower half of violent crime rates of major cities. O3000, Ret. (talk) 11:57, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
Using that logic you can't compare NYC to any city in the US because it has more than double the population of the next largest city. 72.89.83.192 (talk) 14:16, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
No other city in the US has over 8 million residents, no US city is really comparable. But if you must compare it to the 100 biggest US cities it has a below average violent crime rate. Not spectacularly safe nor the safest.72.89.83.192 (talk) 17:10, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
I think part of the problem here is that, while generally reliable, newspapers aren't actually very reliable for reporting on current crime trends. Even the more staid papers like the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal are prone to "if it bleeds it leads" sensationalism. For topics related to crime and public safety we should try to lean more on academic sources published in books and peer-reviewed journals. Perhaps we need a new section in WP:RELIABLE discussing crime, much like we have specialized guidance for Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine). pburka (talk) 14:20, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
Regardless, there's a clear discussion here where a number of editors oppose the text you restored on NPOV grounds. Andre🚐15:37, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
That's not how it works. Some sources can be reliable in some contexts and not others. Newspapers have differing levels of reliability for different topics. pburka (talk) 16:05, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
NYC Crime Rates
New York State criminal justice services released a table with crime rates in an easy to view format. Updated table.
