Talk:Crest (heraldry)

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Crest (heraldry) has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: August 11, 2015. (Reviewed version).

This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Improvement drive

Heraldry has been nominated to be improved by Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. Vote for this article there if you want to contribute. --Fenice 19:56, 16 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Image

I removed this image:

[[Image:Crest.jpg]]

since it shows only a shield and a motto scroll, and (as the text says) use of the word "crest" to mean a shield is inaccurate. There are many full heraldic achievements on Wikipedia, and we may be able to cut a crest out of one of them and use it as an example on this article. 66.92.237.111 01:56, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

bird

What's a familiar Old World bird that has a crest? (I'm American.) —Tamfang 07:13, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A chicken (if a chicken's comb is a crest). Kpalion 16:14, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Other examples: Crested lark, Eurasian hoopoe, Northern lapwing, Tufted duck, etc. - Synuchus (talk) 09:39, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Family Crest

I removed the "family crest" item with the intention of adding something similar to Heraldry. The language was a bit misleading: "arms and crest are granted to one person only" implies that they cannot be inherited. —Tamfang 07:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No such thing of course. Arms are granted to one person only (who passes it on, on death), the crest being part of the arms. Kittybrewster 13:40, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So the use by, say, the present duke of Argyll of a given crest does not imply that he's a member of the same family as the first duke of Argyll? Get a grip. —Tamfang 18:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course he is a descendant of the first Duke. As is, say, his brother. But his brother is not thereby entitled to usurp his arms or his crest or otherwise hold himself out to be the present Duke. - Kittybrewster 22:10, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And do the brother's arms, if any, not express a very specific family relation? —Tamfang 04:08, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The brother may take a similar coat of arms, but NOT the same one, TRADITIONALLY. If somone were to use a crest/coat of arms not belonging to them, they could be executed! - Traditionally... (RG 19:34, 2 March 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Will I ever be allowed to mention the fact that kinsmen customarily bear similar arms without someone responding that it's against the rules (in some countries) to bear identical arms? Does a cadency mark make you blind to the similarity and its significance? —Tamfang 19:41, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In what countries is that allowed? In Scotland a cadency mark cannot be added other than (a) by eldest son and his eldest son and (b) by approval of Lord Lyon Kittybrewster 22:22, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In what countries is what allowed? —Tamfang 22:07, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Did Kitty really say that younger sons in Scotland may not bear differenced versions of the not-family arms, even with Lyon's approval? If so, Moncreiffe's Simple Heraldry (the book that got me hooked on the subject at age 14) gave me one heck of a bum steer. —Tamfang 19:54, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The younger sons can bear differenced versions of their father's arms ONLY with Lord Lyon's approval. - Kittybrewster 11:43, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But you forgot European tradition, where every member of family have same arms as head of family. Yopie 17:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yopie (talk • contribs)

Mon / Kamon

What is the source of the bald statement that a mon is a crest? I think that by definition it is not a crest. It seems to be a symbol of some kind. Kittybrewster 13:40, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Crests aren't symbols? Mon were sometimes worn on helmets, I believe, which would make them crests. —Tamfang 19:55, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Belt~

"While it is not strictly correct, there is a convention that a crest may be displayed within a belt and buckle by persons other than its legal bearer, signifying non-ownership."

Is this true anywhere outside of Scotland? If it isn't then we should be more specific but I won't edit as it may exist somewhere else. Alci12 15:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Crest directories

Reading this article today I felt that it did not go far enough. I would like to add a paragraph on the wave of directories of crests published in the 19th and early 20th centuries (Burkes, Fairbairns and Fox Davies et al).

How best to go about doing this? Should I draft something and display it on this discussion page for comment first? This is the first time that I have ventured into Wiki editing and so please forgive my ignorance of procedures.

Many thanks Capistrum (talk) 20:25, 15 September 2009 (UTC)Capistrum[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Crest (heraldry)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Calvin999 (talk · contribs) 10:05, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I'm Calvin999, and I'm reviewing this nomination.

One suspicious link
The lead is far too short given the reasonable length of the article as a whole. The lead should be an overview.
Place a {{Clear}} after "crests are now solely symbolic." so that the picture doesn't interfere with the prose below.
Is that the correct way to spell mediaeval? I'd like it to Middle Ages
of the helm, → Do you mean helmet?
crest to the helm, → Same here
a particularly absurd example → Too informal and not very encyclopaedic
disembodied hand → dismembered, perhaps?
issuing from clouds → What is being issued?
I think the pictures are causing a bit of distraction and interfering with the sections. They are quite large and some face each other or overlap. I'd recommend perhaps using one or two in the main body of prose, and then having a gallery of images at the end of the article. Because at the moment, it feels quite cluttered.
Also, none of the images should being forced to a particular size.

Outcome

On hold for 7 days. — Calvin999 16:02, 9 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Response

1. Sorry, I don't understand how this link is suspicious. It works fine for me.

It doesn't open for me. — Calvin999
- I've linked to another archival of the book. You should find it works now. Zacwill16 (talk) 19:44, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

2. I've expanded the lead somewhat.

3. Done (though I don't see how this helps?).

It stops it from overlapping into the section below.

4. The spelling "mediaeval" is generally preferred in British English, as opposed to the American "medieval"; I've linked the word to Middle Ages.

Ah okay I didn't know that is the British English. — Calvin999

5. "Helm" and "helmet" are synonyms, but the former term is generally preferred in heraldry, e.g. George Eve uses "helm".

I wouldn't have known that, and I don't think the general reader would either. — Calvin999
- I've added a Wiktionary link. Zacwill16 (talk) 19:44, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

6. See above.

7. Resolved.

8. I think "disembodied" is a better term in this context; "dismembered" suggests that the hand has been ripped off from the arm.

9. The hand is the thing issuing from the clouds; I thought the text made that clear.

10. I have removed a couple of the images.

You can keep them, I just think a gallery for readers to look at would be better than having them all clutter the sections above. You can do a gallery like on Gallery of passport stamps by country or territory. — Calvin999

11. Can I ask why? If the images are allowed to remain their default sizes, then some of them end up so small that the details can't be made out.

If it would render them too small to view then keep them larger. — Calvin999

–Zacwill16 (talk) 17:57, 9 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Passing. — Calvin999 10:58, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Wings?

Viking helmets were often adorned with wings

Surely, this is the preserve of Wagnerian fantasy? Nuttyskin (talk) 11:25, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Still erroneous?

I notice that we refer to heraldic logos used by football clubs as “crests.” This sense appears in the Wiktionary definition of crest, marked “informal.”

Given this, should we soften the pronouncement that using the term crest to refer to a coat or achievement of arms is erroneous? JulieKahan (talk) 17:17, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so. The word's meaning has broadened in some contexts, yes, but it retains its specific sense in technical heraldic usage. Anyone who knows anything about heraldry would cringe interally if you referred to an achievement as a "crest" in their presence. Zacwill (talk) 14:17, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]