Talk:Crannog

Crannóg

should we link to images that dont exist 63.172.168.157 21:07, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Etymology

Sirs,

I think that the morpheme -og is more likely a diminutive (or, to use Thurneysen's term, hypocoristic), not "young", although morphologically and semantically undoubtedly related.

See Thurneysen's Grammar of Old Irish, p. 173, para. 271:

"This suffix [ocán] is apparently a development of -ōc, which is in origin a Britannic hypocoristic [i.e. diminutive; term of endearment] suffix", etc. etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by YogahofYag (talk • contribs) 21:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I would find it very hard to believe that the -óg in crannóg is the adjective óg "young". That seems like simple folk-etymology. I would think it would have to be the diminutive. According to eDIL crannóc means (a) wooden structure, wooden drinking-container, basket...rods, dome(?) & (b) wooden lake-dwelling. I don't know if there is more detailed information about this words etymology, but I will remove the "young" bit.

Cmconraoi (talk) 20:47, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

You're right, it's not though I'm struggling to find an adequate ref. It's the diminutive suffix anyway. I've also re-organised the data a bit, the lead was way too big. Akerbeltz (talk) 11:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

The -óg suffix is apparently borrowed from Brythonic (Modern Welsh -og, Middle Welsh -awc). It comes from Proto-(Insular) Celtic *-āk- and is thus cognate with Goidelic's own suffix -ach. +Angr 19:55, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Construction

A source I've found indicates that in some cases the shallow island itself was constructed: This is a house built on an artificial island made by dumping huge quantities of stones and boulders into shallow water. When the platform thus created broke the surface of the water immense stakes and piles were incorporated into it, and a circular house was built on top, the whole being connected to the mainland by a causeway just below water-level. from Reed, M. Landscape of Britain : From the Beginnings to 1914. London, UK: Routledge, 1997. p 92. Should the text of the article be changed to reflect this?L Hamm 15:57, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Spelling and Pronunciation

I have corrected the spelling of crannóg by adding the síneadh fada or acute accent to the o, which is the standard Irish spelling. The Scottish form is more likely to be crannag than crannóg, I think, and I would appreciate if Scottish Gaelic speakers could verify that for us. If that is the case, then we can add that to the text as an alternative form of the word.

I have also added the pronuciation of the word in Munster, Connacht and Ulster respectively, but again would appreciate if Scottish Gaelic speakers could verify the Scottish pronunciation of the word so that that too could be added to the text.

Is it just me or does the article deal a little bit too much with crannógs in Scotland? An Muimhneach Machnamhach 15:40, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes indeed there certainly seems to be a strong emphasis on the crannogs of Scotland which, by distribution, are fewer in number than those of Ireland.

The "Eilean Domhnuill" mentioned in the History section, is not pronounced 'Ellen Donall', but 'Eileen Dovneil', the 'mh' consonant being somewhat like a 'v' (or hard w) in English, as in the ancient Socts name Dovenaldus, as rendered in Latin, which was spelt Domhnall in Scots Gaeligh. (See MS 1427 for examples).

Move from Crannóg to Crannog?

I propose we move this article from Crannóg to Crannog. It seems like this is the more common form of the word outside of Ireland. Just look at the titles of the references and external links.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:11, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Doing a quick Google search, I think there is sufficient usage of the -óg spelling to leave it in with the fada. Akerbeltz (talk) 11:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

incorrect dating of an Irish Crannog

Looking at the dates for an irish crannog at 4500BC I found this book states that late Mezolithic period shows lake side evidence, in Ban flakes and chert blades are credited to this date at Lough Derravarragh, lough Kinale, Lough Iron, Lough Garren. While the first crannog evidence is in the Balinderry crannog in the late Bronze age 1200-600BC. Therefore I have changed the date to the late Brone age 1200-600BC. If anyone has another date or article please add. Lake side activity does not constitute as a crannog. Lua na fíricí (talk) 19:20, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

References

Purpose

I was reading this article and I could not find the historical purpose for Crannogs. I would hope some archeologist and/or anthropologists would know; perhaps for defense? 70.92.139.18 (talk) 04:00, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Jafeluv (talk) 01:52, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

---

Crannóg → Crannog – As repeatedly described in the article ("preferably crannog, the most commonly accepted form in both Ireland and Scotland", "The commonly accepted modern term crannog and the less-used Irish spelling crannóg"), extremely well cited in the article (five citations), and used throughout the article, "crannog" is the proper spelling. Furthermore, the only accepted English spelling is "crannog": American Heritage, Merriam–Webster, Webster's New World, Encarta, and Oxford. — the Man in Question (in question) 21:11, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Support Compare WP:IMOS; the Gaelic spelling should certainly be mentioned, but it is appropriate title in the Irish and the Scottish Gaelic Wikipedias. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:20, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Support. I tried some searches on GoogleBooks, but Google has trouble with the accents and I don't think you can really compare the words - they're jumbled together. I'm pretty sure the Gaelic spellings are under-represented there because Google's book-scanner sometimes doesn't pick up the accents. Even so it seems to me that the English form is used more in books concerned with archaeology. It think that since the article deals with crannogs in general and not those just in Ireland, then English form has that going for it as well. I don't think that titles have to be in English, they are supposed to be the accepted form in English sources. So if someone can show that the bulk of sources use the Irish form, then that's the form that should be used for the article's title.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 05:03, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Support. Brianann MacAmhlaidh's logic is fine by me. (Don't think modern Scots Gaelic uses acute accents either). Ben MacDui 07:18, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Neutral. Not worried either way really. Scots Gaelic would be crannag (Irish -óg > ag). The thing is though that (in my personal personal experience) the use of acutes is becoming more common when it comes to the English media, e.g. with words like Gardaí. But as I said I'm agreeable to either if people have a preference for Crannog. Akerbeltz (talk) 19:31, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Oppose. Current name reflects the pronunciation of the word in English. Sarah777 (talk) 19:51, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Support. Crannog is easier to pronunce in English using accents Brianann MacAmhlaidh has some very cood points Uthican (talk) 13:33, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

15 refs for one sentence?

"In contrast, relatively few crannogs have been excavated since the Second World War, although this number has steadily grown, especially since the early 1980s and may soon surpass pre-war totals" needs 15 refs? Why? Is it a very very controversial statement? AllenBender (talk) 20:08, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

removal of inacurate sentence on Bronze Age Scottish Crannogs

I removed the following partial sentence "-although in Scotland, Bronze Age and Norse Period use is not apparent in the archaeological record.-". Firstly it is inacurate as The archaeology of Skye and the Western Isles by Ian Armit, Historic Scotland p52 [[1]] states Scottish crannog's were active up till the Bronze Age and into the Iron Age.Uthican (talk) 05:16, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Well spotted. Ben MacDui 09:40, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Problem with dating

"The earliest radiocarbon determinations obtained from key sites such as Oakbank in Loch Tay or Redcastle, Beauly Firth approach the Late Bronze Age - Early Iron Age transition at their widest interpretation at 2 sigma or 95.4% probability, falling after c.800BC and therefore could only be considered Late Bronze Age by the narrowest of margins."

This statement is very ambiguous. It's clearly a response to criticism of the dating by another editor, but isn't very useful to the casual reader. If statistical analysis is to be used, it should be made clear to the untutored reader A) that it is being used; B) that '2 sigma' implies 2 standard deviations from the mean; C) What exactly, the mean is in this case, the variance, and the range of possible data (within, say, 3 deviations). In its present form, it is completely opaque to the reader who does not have experience with statistical terminology. Furthermore, even for those of us who do have experience, we are unable to understand the argument in its completeness, without being given the mean date and the variance.

Please elaborate on this; if too much space is required, move it further into the body of the article.

Regards James — Preceding unsigned comment added by Babyinthebarn (talk • contribs) 15:06, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Category:House types

Is a crannog a house type? Three of the current categories are for fortifications but the description of the primary buildings here are dwellings. It seems that the word fortification should be in the article is that is a primary purpose and this article should also be added to Category:House types. Jim Derby (talk) 22:18, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

What's a "crannog"?

It's more than silly and obscurantist to change this article name from the correct crannóg to the meaningless "crannog", when it is pronounced by all speakers of all languages who are familiar with it as "crannóg, just as Seán is not pronounced 'Sean' by people who are familiar with the correct spelling and pronunciation of that name. I can only wonder about the motivations of somebody who wanted to change this article name to an incorrect form. 89.101.41.216 (talk) 17:38, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Well what is a crannóg as the Irish fada 'ó' does not exist in other forms of Gaelic its much better to have the non fada to avoid confusion.Uthican (talk) 14:34, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

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