Talk:County Donegal

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Freedom of donegal was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 04 July 2013 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into County Donegal. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

Dún na nGall / Tír Chonaill

Is the preferred Irish version of the county's name Dún na nGall? I know in my (all-Irish) primary school we learned that the name was Tír Chonaill, even though the English name obviously originated as Dún na nGall. Maybe I'm out of date, as I note that Donegal County Council use Comhairle Chontae Dhún na nGall [1] --Ryano 12:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

My advice recently was that the spelling used in Irish for counties for the new style tables be that as specified in Placenames (Provinces and Counties) Order 2003[2] as this is the legal definition of the Irish name and takes precidence over other variations. It uses Donegal/County Donegal Dún na nGall/Contae Dhún na nGall respectively. Tír Chonaill would appear to originate from County Tyrconnel, and could be due an article in itself if sufficent material can be found. Djegan 19:10, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Tir Conaill, as traditionally understood, strictly speaking does not include Inishowen. Tir Conaill is certainly an older name, and in more common use by far in spoken Irish; I imagine that the use of Donegal for the area, rather than just for the town, follows the official establishment of the county. However, there are also plenty of cases of Dun na nGall being used in real spoken Irish; one that immediately comes to mind is the song 'Gleanntain Ghlasa Ghaoth Dobhair", which includes the lines "slan slan go foill le Dun na nGall, an contae glas gan smal." Palmiro | Talk 23:53, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Tír Chonaill would appear to originate from County Tyrconnel" NO! "Tyrconnel" is a barbarous Anglicization of "Tír Chonaill", and it is not a county. The Irish language comes first, English tyranny later.

"Contae Thír Chonaill" is WRONG! It is "Tír Chonaill" without "Contae". The region "Tír Chonaill" predates the foreigners' invention of counties and Gaelic speakers in Donegal never make the mistake of referring to it as a County. "Tír Chonaill" is not a county, and you will never ever hear anyone talking about "Contae Thír Chonaill"; this is a barbarization of Gaelic language and it is simply a mistake to have it in this article. On a previous note: "Gleanntáin Ghlas' Ghaoth Dobhair" was written in the 1950s by the Donegal fiddler Francie Mooney, so doesn't really qualify as a historical document. Dún na nGall is used by Gaelic speakers to refer to the county (especially if including Inis Eoghain). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.251.235 (talk) 04:05, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is NOT "Contae" Thír Chonaill. This is a mistake that has been added again to this page. It is "Tír Chonaill" always without "Contae". No Donegal Gaelic speaker would ever make such a foolish error. Please correct it! Think of the book "Thiar i dTír Chonaill" by Donegal novelist Seámus Ó Grianna! Or find one single Donegal writer who refers to "Tír Chonaill" anywhere as a "Contae". You will not find a single instance. Every child who learned Irish in a Donegal school will know that "Contae" never ever goes along with "Tír Chonaill". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.251.235 (talk) 02:31, 23 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Meaning of Dún na nGall & Tír Chonaill

I cannot see why the meaning of the Gaelic names is not included in this article. Dún na nGall means "Fort of the Foreigners". Tír Chonaill means "Conall's Land".

Coontie Dinnygal

Does the Ulster Scotched Coontie Dinnygal have any official currency in the Republic? 84.135.250.141 12:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm from Donegal and have never heard it before, anyhow. Dun 13:08, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean, 'official currency'? It's the Ulster-Scots name for the county, simple as that... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.76.205.225 (talk) 12:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, it isn't the 'Ulster-Scots name for the county'. Scots in Ulster has a variety of forms, to the degree that we now have 'traditional Scots’ as spoken by native Scots speakers and the synthetic (and linguistically doubtful) version promoted by some learners. I would suggest not using such forms unless they have proper academic grounding. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EoinBach (talk • contribs) 01:06, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Coming from Scotland I was surprised that I had never even heard of Ulster Scots as a language before moving to Beal Fierste but it seems that I speak, read and write fluent Ulster Scots as it is exactly the same as the modern colloquial English spoken in many areas of Central Scotland, most commonly among the working classes, yet I would never consider myself bi-lingual. Rather than classing it as a language, I would say it is more a regional dialect which certainly isn't spoken in Dún na nGall.

Ulster-Scots (also known as Ullans) is most certainly spoken in County Donegal. It is spoken in East Donegal (chiefly in two districts there: the Finn Valley and, especially, The Laggan) and in parts of southern Inishowen. I don't believe that it is a language; rather, it is a dialect of English as spoken in certain parts of Ulster. And I say that as a native of The Laggan in East Donegal, where the dialect is spoken by both Catholics and Protestants. It should also be borne in mind that there is not one, uniform variety of Ulster-Scots. There are several different varieties. The Ulster-Scots as spoken in East Donegal and Inishowen, for example, is quite different from that spoken in County Antrim. Go to Raphoe and St. Johnston, both wee 'toons' in The Laggan, to hear the East Donegal version of the dialect being spoken!

Classic! In fact European linguists came to Northern Ireland in the 1990s to study the supposed newly discovered dialects of Scots language and were able to find not even one speaker of a dialect of Scots , only various dialects of English. Just because some people in East Donegal have not mastered English does not mean that Ulster Scots really exists. The head of the Ulster Scots agency was asked whether he was really serious about his claim that the Scots language was actually spoken in Northern Ireland, he replied: "Does it matter if we're getting the money!" Everybody and his granny know this is not a real form of Scots; it's English with a ghetto accent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.251.235 (talk) 04:29, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The accent there shares more in common with that of the Outer Hebrides as does the Gaelic spoken. Dún na nGall Gaelic would be instantly more recognisable to a Hebridean than that spoken further South in Ireland. This may be partly due to proximity but can also be contributed to much interaction between the communities, in particular fishermen, over the years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aonghas72 (talk • contribs) 09:17, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reopening of debate

Ulster Scots IS NOT an offical language , if you take Ulsters Scots I know of many Chinese people running takeaways in Letterkenny so maybe Mandarin should be included aswell ?

Per WP:IMOS#Other names – "For articles on places on the island of Ireland, show the modern name in English, Irish and, if appropriate, Scots in the infobox if the article has one." (emphasis mine.) Therefore it depends on your interpretation on "appropriate". I would argue it's entirely appropriate to include the Ulster-Scots name on this article, as Donegal has native speakers of the language – the only place in the Republic to do so. Mandarin, as I'm sure you know, is not a langauge native to Co. Donegal. JonC ^Talk 09:27, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If approtiate , will I place place other languages in the English WIki ? No , nor should an unofficail langauge be used here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 09:31, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:IMOS doesn't specify any need for the language to be "official", only appropriate. Can you point out where you're getting your interpretation from? JonC ^Talk 09:34, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can you show where its approtriate to use an unofficial language in relation to an article? and, if appropriate, Scots in the info box It states Scots , not Ulster Scots , also states info box' not in the article also . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 09:40, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Londonderry - This is an example aswell , Irish is an official langauge in NI yet its used in the info box not the article . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 09:48, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ulster-Scots is a dialect of the Scots language. See the infoboxes of Londonderry, Strabane, Enniskillen, etc. – it just says "Scots". With regards to your second point, WP:IMOS#Other names also states: "For places in the Republic of Ireland, other names should be shown in parentheses immediately after the common name in the lead." JonC ^Talk 09:52, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

With -Examples:

For places in the Republic of Ireland:

Drogheda (Irish: Droichead Átha)[1] ... Wexford (from Old Norse: Veisafjǫrðr meaning "inlet of the mud flat";[1] Irish: Loch Garman, meaning "lake of Garman")[2]...

Does NOT show Scots/Ulster Scots , only Official languages — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 09:55, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Londonderry does NOT mention 'Scots: Derrie / Lunnonderrie Irish: Doire / Doire Cholmcille' only in info box , by your example again it does not belong in the article . Please leave such in the info box unless you can prove otherwise . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 09:59, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just because it's not shown as an example doesn't make it wrong. Notice it says "other names", not "other name". Ulster-Scots isn't spoken natively in Drogheda or Wexford; it is in Donegal. And Londonderry is in Northern Ireland, not the Republic – the manual of style is different when it comes to lead/infobox. JonC ^Talk 10:04, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please sign your posts using four tildes (these: ~)? You were left a notice on your talk page. It looks messy. JonC ^Talk 10:05, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is considered a dialect only of the State , Irish is considered an official language of the UK so by your examples and views are you going to place the Irish place names in ALL UK articles? If you can show me a road sign or any printed article by a STATE body that represents Donegal that OFFICIALLY uses Scots you could put it forward and with consensus it could be used . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 10:11, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As I previously stated, IMOS doesn't mention official status anywhere; I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. Last time I checked Old Norse wasn't an official language of the Irish state either. Irish Gaelic isn't a native language of anywhere in the UK but Northern Ireland. JonC ^Talk 10:22, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Old norse is used in the lede as a joint translation for the origin of the name . IMOS mentions appropriate how is using a dialect as a language appropriate also as I have stated it can be used in the info box . On Irish being an Official language in NI how come then its not in the lede in articles? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 10:36, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Because practice differs between NI- and RoI-related article, as I've stated above. WP:IMOS (it's all there, if you bothered to read it) says all other names should be in the lead for articles about places in the Republic. For places in Northern Ireland, only names from which the English name derives should be. JonC ^Talk 10:50, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All names so I could call NI , the Teddy bears head , the Occupied counties and other such , which I can reference on the internet if you wish . No a NPOV must be used . Stop pushing a POV . I can show you names of the UK in many languages used in the UK , yet they cant be used . Stop pushing POV . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 10:57, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is "the Teddy Bear's Head" the name for Northern Ireland in a local language? If so, please go ahead and add it in. You are ignoring WP:IMOS in order to satisfy your own POV – no basis on which to make changes to an article. JonC ^Talk 11:03, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just saw this below "I agree with you, but as the 26-county republic is officially called "Ireland" (despite the fact it's clearly not)"by jonchapple in the same irish green as you write jonc . "despite the fact it's clearly not" what is clearly not? I do think there is a major POV being pushed by you on this article , also a quick read over your contribes would see you on more Irish related subjects , I have not checked out the POV you have pushed on these . On an article it is a NPOV that should be used . Show me Scots in Donegal as a current fact . If not leave this page and stop pushing a POV . It is inappropriate to use an unofficial language of a state to descibe or name a part of that state , that is a NPOV . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 10:48, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's me, well done. Clearly not Ireland – Ireland is an island that the state called Ireland does not occupy the whole of. That's not a POV, it's a fact. I've responded to your other points above. JonC ^Talk 10:52, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ireland is a state aswell . The European Union is not all of Europe , The USA is not all of the Americas these are a fact too. Ireland is the states official name and that of the island aswell FACTS . What is your point ? Its not NPOV so please leave this discussing . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 11:02, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. The difference being that the official name of the United States isn't "America" and the EU's isn't "Europe". JonC ^Talk 11:05, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do you always use USA or sometimes throw america in ? Do you always use EU not Europe ? You got a problem with the name of the state ? And the place names within ? POV stop pushing . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 11:11, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't what we're supposed to be discussing here. JonC ^Talk 11:21, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes its not , but it shows your point of view . And proves you are using POV instead of NPOV . You have not showed any clear usage of Scots in the state or showed why a language the is not recognised in the state is being used . You just keep pushing POV . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 11:25, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have cited the Irish manual of style. You have done nothing but offer up your own opinion and fling accusations of non-neutral editing around. I'll ask you one more time – where is the Wikipedia guideline, manual of style or consensus that supports your changes? JonC ^Talk 11:30, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For the infobox it doesn't matter if its used by the state or not. For Northern Ireland settlements and counties the modern Irish is included even though it has no official status in UK law. There is nothing that says that the infobox is for official languages at all. Rather the parameter is for other names (such as local or regional) for it, and Scots (or Ulster-Scots) is a dialect spoken in County Donegal by a few. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:34, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mabuska, can I ask why you've only partially reverted? I think IMOS supports Scots in the lead too – it's different for places in the South. JonC ^Talk 11:37, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Because as far as i'm aware we use official names for places in the lede for NI and the RoI. The infobox is different. If you push to have Scots versions of places in the RoI included in the lede then you will undue the long, hard work that went into agreeing an IMoS for the use of Irish in the lede of NI settlement articles. Wikipedia:IMOS#Other_names allows for its inclusion in the infobox. That is all that is needed. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:43, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not "pushing" for anything other than the restoration of the way it's sat for quite a while with no problems. Where else would I want Scots names? It's not spoken anywhere else in the Republic. JonC ^Talk 11:50, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also, IMOS makes it clear that on NI articles only the foreign name from which the English is derived should be in the lead, the rest go in the infobox. It states that for the ROI all other names should also be in the lead. JonC ^Talk 11:55, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You would be correct Jonchapple. Thus it should also be included in the lede then according to IMoS. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:01, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you agree that it's supported by IMoS, could you revert to the stable version? I think I'd be breaking 3RR, although I'm not sure if it would be classed as reverting vandalism. JonC ^Talk 12:07, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But Irish is spoken in NI . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 11:51, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And? It's not official so we don't include it in the lede (only a deriviation if applicable), but we include it in the infobox per Wikipedia:IMOS#Other_names. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:00, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed and so it should be recipricated . The Scots names for the county could be mentioned in the "Culture" section this would help highlight the use of Scots in a small degree in the county . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.46.142 (talk) 12:06, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If it should be reciprotated then that means you are saying the Scots schould also be in the infobox then? Regardless Scots is valid for the lede and infobox in this article per Wikipedia:IMOS#Other names. Please abide by the guidelines. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:26, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Mabuska, JobC - you're misinterpreting the IMOS I think. The first line says that Scot goes in the infobox for all place names in the island of Ireland. It then goes on to explain how to write the lede, which is different for the Republic than the North. Reading he statement other names should be shown in parentheses immediately after the common name in the lead should be interpreted in the context of the very first sentence, and since some place names in Ireland are in English, the "other name" to be shown in parentheses is the Irish name, and vice versa. It doesn't mean that a Scots varient should also be included in parentheses. --HighKing (talk) 13:02, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Highking – how did you come to that inclusion? To me the fact that it says "other names", with an "s", would indicate that there's more to it than just Irish and English. Surely if it was just an English name followed by a Gaelic one or vice-versa, we'd have "the other name" or something similar. JonC ^Talk 13:07, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It says "other names" because some places actually have more than one name. For example, see Dingle which has 2 valid names in Irish. --HighKing (talk) 13:16, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You may well be right, but how can you be so sure? It doesn't specify. As Mabuska says below, I don't think IMoS was written with Scots in mind and doesn't specifically cater for or prohibit against its use in any way apart from with Northern Irish articles. I'm happy to keep the article as it is, but—in my interpretation at least—it wasn't in violation of IMoS before our IP-hopping friend here kicked off earlier today. JonC ^Talk 18:57, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)Other names could refer to different spellings of the same place in the same language. Scots wasn't originally foreseen as an issue i think when we were discussing how to deal with place names especially as when last discussed we focused mostly on Northern Ireland places. Whilst HighKing's view is based on their personal interpretation of the IMOS (aren't all of ours i guess), the IMOS by its wording qualifies the Scots in the lede. However personally i think it makes more sense to just follow the opening line of WP:IMOS#Other names and have it in the infobox. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:20, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have to disagree with some of your logic. The IMOS by its wording specifically disqualifies Scots from the lede. If you put Scots in the lede, you've gone against the opening line of WP:IMOS#Other names. Also, use of the plural term "other names" has been explained. Still, at least the issue has been resolved. --HighKing (talk) 13:25, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I was essentially backing your position in the end HighKing. The dispute over the lede was never with me anyways. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:27, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of thimgs have came to light here about JonChapple and Mabuska . JonChapple or JonC pushes an anti-Irish view , calling Irish a foreign language "Also, IMOS makes it clear that on NI articles only the foreign name from which the English is derived should be in the lead" , POV pushing . Mabuska there is no UK law , its devovled and wether you like it or not Irish is recognised as a official language in NI as a minority language -The British government has ratified the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages in respect to Irish in Northern Ireland. The Education (Northern Ireland) Order 1998 states: "It shall be the duty of the Department (of Education) to encourage and facilitate the development of Irish-medium education." The two of you should refrain from pushing your POV . Mabuska stop trying to be a one person judge and jury on Irish issues . Your POV is very clear in this case where you decided that Scots should be included against IMOS , as was state above , in the info box . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.78.231.159 (talk) 18:37, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't even know why I'm wasting my breath, but you need to stop flinging accusations around and indulging in personal attacks. This is the English Wikipedia, so Irish/Gaelic is a foreign language. So is Scots. And Urdu. And Albanian. And every other language that isn't English. Give it a rest. JonC ^Talk 18:54, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No Jon , Irish is a referral language on English wiki , it is native to NI not foreign , it is an official langauge of NI , you studied history at Exeter thaught you would have learned that . Stop POV pushing . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.73.147 (talk) 18:59, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do you do any other tricks, or just the "POV pusher" one? JonC ^Talk 19:05, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mabuska how come two Editors broke the 3RR rule yet you only issued ONE warning ? Bias ? Proves a point about yourself . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.78.210.86 (talk) 10:58, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't break 3RR. Check the page history. JonC ^Talk 11:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do you guys want to maybe get a room somewhere? This issue is closed. Don't feed the trolls. --HighKing (talk) 11:11, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

09:32, 19 September 2011 Jonchapple(talk | contribs) (43,190 bytes) (I'll only say this one more time before requesting admin intervention – you must discuss controversial changes. This is the stable version, and it'll remain this way til consensus for your changes is reached. Please discuss before reverting again)09:28, 19 September 2011 Jonchapple(talk | contribs) (43,190 bytes) (Undid revision 451295627 by 109.77.46.142 (talk) take it to talk)09:17, 19 September 2011 Jonchapple(talk | contribs) (43,190 bytes) (Undid revision 451294845 by 109.77.46.142 (talk) This is the stable version. Please don't make the changes until consensus is reached) (undo) , thats 3 .With respect to yourself Highking , and all other wiki editors the rules should be applied without bias and applied to all . Mabuska singled out the IP editor , left JonC alone .Why was this ? And what gain was there to such an action ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.77.34.103 (talk)

Simple. You made five reverts in under 12 hours! Jonchapple made 3. He didn't actually violate 3RR, whereas you did. It really is that simple. Mabuska ^(talk) 15:15, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Simple ? No , Mabuska 4 reverts were made , even if three of you ,yourself Jon and Denis , kept reverting to avoid the 3RR rule, basically bullying a point across , which in the end was proved wrong . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.78.235.61 (talk) 18:30, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The issue of the Ulster Scots name for our county is going to have to be addressed. Each Wikipedia article for each county in Northern Ireland has the Ulster Scots name for that particular county attached. Even the Wikipedia article for Fermanagh has the Ulster Scots name for that county attached to it, even though very little Ulster Scots is actually spoken in County Fermanagh.

I am aged in my 40s, and I was born and raised here in St. Johnston, a wee village here in the Laggan district in East Donegal. Ulster Scots is widely spoken here in East Donegal. Indeed, tens of thousands of us Donegal 'wans' speak some sort of Ulster Scots every time we speak. Every time us Donegal folk say words like 'aye', 'wains', 'a wee burn' (meaning a stream or small river), 'naw', 'wee', etc., we are speaking Ulster Scots. Vastly more of us Donegal folk use Ulster Scots words on a daily basis than ever speak Irish. This reality should be reflected in the Wikipedia article about County Donegal. And here in East Donegal, our Ulster Scots name for 'oor ane coonty' (our own county) is 'Coonty Dunnygaal'. That's the actual reality here in East Donegal. Laggan Boy (talk) 08:04, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And, by the way, it should be noted that the Ulster Scots name for County Donegal was actually attached to this Wikipedia article for many, many years. It was only relatively recently that someone decided to remove it. The Ulster Scots name should be restored to this article as it would reflect the reality of how we speak in County Donegal, especially how we speak here in the rural parts of East Donegal. Laggan Boy (talk) 08:33, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So far, you did not provide any sources conform WP:V. Just a claim "I am a local guy so I know". Alas, that falls foul of No Original Research. The Banner talk 11:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strange I missed this debate before. Ulster Scots definitely has long usage in parts of Donegal. The Government of Ireland site “Ask about Ireland” covers this, for example (https://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/history-heritage/heritage-towns/the-heritage-towns-of-don/raphoe/ulster-scots-the-language/). SeoR (talk) 17:40, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And further to that, I see notes such as: “While broad Ulster-Scots is only spoken in rural communities, especially in Donegal's Laggan district, everyone in Ulster uses some of its words and phrases in everyday speech (example: the word "wee" is used to mean many things, from a term of endearment, to a description of small size).“

and: “In 2005, the Taobh Tire project of Donegal County Library services collaborated with the young people of the Laggan area (St Johnston and Carrigans) in researching and collating an Ulster-Scots dictionary.” SeoR (talk) 17:48, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So, instead of replies like this (see summery), there are decent sources available to satisfy my request for sources? The Banner talk 18:14, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Begging your pardon, 'The Banner', but a 'higher standard' seems to be demanded in relation to the Ulster Scots name for County Donegal compared to the Ulster Scots names for most of the other Ulster counties. Very few of the other Ulster counties have references to back up the Ulster Scots names in their Wikipedia articles. Yet, probably quite rightly, you 'demand' such references for the County Donegal Wikipedia article. What about the other Wikipedia articles about the other Ulster counties? Laggan Boy (talk) 14:02, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notable people

Does anyone agree that the 'Notable natives' section of this article is too long and too messy?? I think so, and I'll clean it up next week. So leave a comment if you feel strongly about this.

--MaxPride (talk) 13:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps delete the ones who don't seem to have their own articles. Tameamseo (talk) 13:04, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just refined the list to those who are actually 'famous' natives and would be known outside the county, and indeed removing some of thosw who would not be known in the county itself. Obviously if you have plans for devloping it better work away - just did it so that in the short run it didn't account for about 1/3 of the entire atricle! Will try to ensure that all those removed are part of the category though. - Donegal92 (talk) 15:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good edits, Donegal92. I readded Tommy Tiernan and Brian McEnifff, as it seems to me both are fairly well known outside the county. I'm not from Donegal, but I'm well aware of both. Tameamseo (talk) 18:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry - the list was so long I didn't see them! - Donegal92 (talk) 22:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keeping Tommy Tiernan on the list of 'Notable Natives', but removing the likes of Cardinal Logue, Archbishop Simms and Bríd Rodgers, etc., from it, was quite ridiculous (and I say that as a huge fan of Mr. Tiernan myself!!). Tommy Tiernan's links to County Donegal are quite tenuous. Cardinal Logue, on the other hand (and whatever people may feel about him), was to play a very, very important role in Irish history from the 1880s through until his death in 1924. Archbishop Simms, head of the Church of Ireland during much of The Troubles, was also a great medieval scholar and led his church at a very difficult time. And both these prelates were born and bred in the county: Logue in Kilmacrenan, Simms in Lifford. Bríd Rodgers was to play a hugely influential role in Northern Irish politics during much of The Troubles, going on to serve as the first female Agriculture Minister in Ireland, North or South, when she was appointed to that post in the Northern Ireland Executive. She too was born and bred in our county, this time in Gaoth Dobhair. I think it is an awful shame to leave these great Donegal folk (indeed, great Ulster and great Irish folk) out of the list of 'Notable Natives'. Mr. Tiernan, as great as I consider him to be, was merely born in the county. Neither of his parents are from the county. At about the age of one, he left with his family. That hardly makes him a 'native'. I wish it did, mind you!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.41.240.15 (talk) 16:06, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction

The intro of this article is a bit long and filled with some 'Orange' statements w/o citation. Needs a shave! 89.100.20.244 (talk) 19:07, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

> I dont know what you mean by 'Orange statements' but the tone of the introduction, specifically the description of the relationship with Derry, is more selling a POV. I think the article merits a section on the 'Relationship between Donegal and Northern Ireland'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.206.1.17 (talk) 18:01, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the Introduction, as of the 13th/7th/2011, is needlessly confusing. This talk of a 'former administrative county' will only confuse people. In everyday life, County Donegal continues to be used by Donegal County Council as the borders of its administrative area and the people of the county continue to see the county as an administrative unit, using the county name in their addresses, etc.. And this use of the term 'Ireland' to solely mean the 'Republic of Ireland' is rather partitionist. We all know that 'Ireland' is the official name of the State according to Bunreacht na hÉireann. However, it leads to too much confusion, for the purposes of a Wikipedia article, to use that term soley for the 'Twenty-Six Counties', as 'Ireland' is also the name of the entire country, the entire island. People in the North have as much of a claim to the term 'Ireland' as people in the Republic have.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.76.234.153 (talk) 09:20, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you, but as the 26-county republic is officially called "Ireland" (despite the fact it's clearly not), we have to pipelink "Ireland" to the Republic of Ireland article (like so: Ireland). That way we respect the official and, some would argue common, name of the state but link it to the appropriate page. Something you just undid. JonChapple ^Talk 09:30, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Culture and heritage

I would suggest that this 'Donegal Irish has a strong influence on Irish speakers across Ulster, who find themselves speaking a dialect noticeably different from the Irish most commonly spoken and understood in Dublin.' be changed for a number of very good reasons.

1) All modern Irish dialects are different to each other, although all are equally Irish and equally understood in other Irish speaking areas. 2) The reference to Dublin is meaningless, Irish is not 'commonly spoken and understood in Dublin'. There is no native Irish dialect in the Dublin area and any Irish in Dublin is either learnt or has been brought in by speakers from Irish speaking areas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EoinBach (talk • contribs) 01:13, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried (several times) to enter Burns Night as part of our culture within my home county here, in the 'Culture' section, but it keeps being removed. I would appeal to the general editor of this Wikipedia article on County Donegal to add Burns Night to the Culture section. It is quite a 'big deal' each year for many of us over here in East Donegal and up in Inishowen. It is a particularly prominent event for members of the county's Protestant community each year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.76.168.102 (talk) 20:45, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And I would suggest you read the welcome messages I have left on several of your IPs and learn WP:VER WP:RS and both WP:MOS and WP:IMOS. Murry1975 (talk) 20:47, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

pronunciation

The transcription had the 1st syllable as dunn rather than don in the English pronunciation. I can only confirm the later. Anyone know differently? kwami (talk) 08:38, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It should be pronounced quickly as 'Dunn-e-gaul'. And that's from me, a Catholic from The Laggan!

Introduction

"This apparent isolation^[1] has led to Donegal people and their customs being considered distinct^[2] from the rest of the island and has been used to market the county with the slogan Up here it's different.^[3]"

A few problems here. Firstly the reference mark left to validate the "isolation" refers to the North West REGION. The second reference with the slogan Up here it's different, is actualy called Ireland North West! There seems to be a real political motivation to the user insisting on stating Donegal is isolated from the STATE as opposed to the island, when a) the quotes beg to differ! and b) an area reknowned for traditional Irish music, Gaelic Games and Irish Taoisigh in the Nine Year War seems to be as isolated culturally and socially from say, Belfast as the rest of the state! Underlying political rhetoric here maybe...

I hardly think this is 'political rhetoric', to be fair. County Donegal is different from the rest of the Republic of Ireland because it is so much an Ulster county. It has huge connections with neighbouring Northern Ireland, especially Derry and Strabane. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.78.245.233 (talk) 01:44, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And whoever keeps listing out the Northern Ireland counties surrounding Donegal, do you realise that Fermanagh is in the same position and is surrounded by three Irish Republic counties? This surely negates the validity of emphasizing Donegals flanked position. However I've no problem with leaving the list, but it should be taken into account Fermanaghs isolation from her state, before using it as evidence of the UK influence on Donegal...

P.S I've removed the previous Introduction talk, however I'm not sure am I allowed to. Both were just following again biased political agendas... First poster reffered to issues similar to mine as "Orange statements". It speaks for itself.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by User:CelticSeimi (talk) 08:38, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

County Donegal is attached to several other counties and therefore cannot be isolated from the rest of the island any more than most of the counties. However it is isolated from the rest of the state due to only being connected along a very small area of its border. Canterbury Tail talk 19:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

>The sources only refer to economic isolation, whereas on the page it is emphasizing cultural. I'm going to change that.

This apparent isolation^[4] has led to Donegal people and their customs being considered distinct^[5] from the rest of the island and has been used to market the county with the

The apparent isolation is reffering to economics and dosent justify saying the customs are distinct from the state only. That is suggesting its customs (Speaking Irish and folk music) are a result of its position next to the Northern Ireland state.

Here is a quote for from the source:

Donegal is isolated - on the island overall there's five counties that aren't serviced by train links. That's Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh and Tyrone. The North West is a totally neglected region.

Need more evidence? I havent changed it too much, however. I've made a compromise, no mention of state or island. However if you choose to edit it again and want to write more on it, make sure you clarify the isolation as economic, and some sources that identify its traditions as being a product of the influence of neighbouring counties, and not one with the rest of the island.

While Ireland is considered to suffer spatial and economic peripherality in the EU context, this is particularly the case with Donegal which is on the periphery of Ireland. Its location has been perceived for many years as a distinct disadvantage. Improvements, particularly to major roads, are allowing greater access into the county particularly from the south (N15) and also from the north (N13), but local roads are below standard, particularly those connecting the west to the N13 and N15, and the poor state of local transportation and roads impacts on people’s quality of life. This is especially true of older people and children; 44% of the population in Donegal are dependent and the lack of proper rural transport services is a major negative factor. There is a need for better road access into the county in particular the upgrading of the N2. In cultural terms, however, its location adds to its distinct identity.

Taken from the first citation mark. I've added a line "distinct identity", taken from the source itself. I also added a line about the size of the Gaelthacht which I think is a good addition to the paragraph. Everyone happy?

There are more speakers of Irish in Donegal than in any other county, according to Radio na Gaeltachta (1992 report I think). How then does this count as only the second biggest Gaeltacht? Is the size of the non-Gaelic-speaking population included (for example, because the Galway Gaeltacht includes part of Galway city?) Shouldn't the article reflect the truth of the actual Irish speaking population? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.251.235 (talk) 04:36, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

comment added by User:CelticSeimi (talk) 13:40, 17 April 2009 (UTC) BOTANY More is needed here. Perhaps this section should be "Wildlife" or "Biology" - what ever more is needed before this title can be made.Osborne 20:28, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

References

Tír Chonaill

An editor edited out this version of the name after I re-entered it yesterday in the infobox after another editor re-entered it in the article after it was removed with consensus in an edit war in September. This has been discussed here before , the old version of Tír Chonaill was different than Donegal but so too were most counties back then to what we have now. If you translate "Tír Chonaill" using google translator you get "Donegal" [[3]]. Also in my Collins Irish-English dictionary ISBN 978-0-00-732496-5 page 587 Tír Chonaill nf Donegal , and on page 79 Donegal n Dún m na nGall, Tír f Chonaill. Murry1975 (talk) 13:27, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

List of Donegal people

The alphabetical list is too long and boring. It could all be neatly clipped into the article List of Donegal people. The "main" re-direct would suffice for all but a handful of the truly notable. Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:05, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

from other parts of the country

Which country?Xx236 (talk) 11:53, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Historical Population values

The value listed for 1821 is 120,559. The value jumps for 1831 and 1841, and these increases do not seem plausible. I checked the following source ^[1] and see that Donegal is tallied in 1821 as having 249,483 "souls". I presume no-one has a problem with making this correction for 1821? If so, other values should be checked! 86.40.64.65 (talk) 23:36, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Can you cite a specific URL for the 1821 figure? Does this site give an 1841 figure? Are you proposing to give your 1821 figure and delete the 1841 figure (296,000), on the basis that it is unsourced and unlikely? The only source in the paragraph is to "Patterson, Edward M (1962). The County Donegal Railways", which does not look like a very reliable source for this. We should be suspicious of 'census figures' that have been rounded, as they are more likely to be estimates.

We need to be particularly careful because this relates to the Great Famine, which remains controversial. Verbcatcher (talk) 03:56, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I was looking at the Demographics section. I now see that you are probably referring to the Historical population sidebox, which is normally hidden.

I have identified these figures from histpop.org

1821 – 248,270 [4]
1831 – 289,149 [5]
1841 – 296,448 [6]
1851 – 257,298 (somewhat indistinct) [7] [8]

The table and the Demographics section need to be revised. The Demographics section would be clearer with percentages.Verbcatcher (talk) 04:51, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, the 1821 figure I mentioned of 249,483 "souls" is taken from the Abstract of Population of Ireland, 1821 Page 2. [9] This figure is close to the one given in the Preliminary observations, enumeration abstract, appendix, Ireland, 1821 Page 274 that you have cited. There is a note at the bottom of page 2 which is relevant in determining which value is more accurate. The letter m indicates that there has been a review of the values to produce this tally, so it would seem that 249,483 m is the more accurate tally that they made at that time. Btw, I didnt check values for other years but you have done good work in checking those. 86.40.64.65 (talk) 09:42, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ http://www.histpop.org

References

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Article class

This looks like a B to my untrained eyes. Any opinions? Sarah777 (talk) 13:52, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation (2023)

The current pronunciation given is "/ˌdʌnɪˈɡɔːl, ˌdɒn-/ DUN-ig-AWL, DON-" (to rhyme with Senegal) which I believe is incorrect, as an Irish person, and it doesn’t match the logainm (state-sponsored body) source which I added a while back. I believe it should be changed back to /ˌdʌniˈɡɔːl, ˌdɒn-/ DUN-ee-GAWL, DON-. Also, is there a source for the /ˌdɒn-/ pronunciation?, I feel like it’s probably just a spelling pronunciation. 2A01:B340:86:DA90:8823:BBBA:5C34:3515 (talk) 17:01, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttp://www.sinnfeingeneralelection.com/en/topic/4

[2] ttp://www.donegal.ie/library/aboutdonegal/aboutdon.htm

[IE_NW-3] Ireland Northwest.

[4] ttp://www.sinnfeingeneralelection.com/en/topic/4

[5] ttp://www.donegal.ie/library/aboutdonegal/aboutdon.htm

[6] ttp://www.histpop.org

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]

[1]