Talk:Countesses of the Gestapo

If any of you are interested, help or advice invited here as well

@Scope Creep, Piotrus, and Shakescene: Leaving out Mathglot because I see they have made a correction already Elinruby (talk) 10:20, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

@Scope creep: miscapitalized you, sorry Elinruby (talk) 10:25, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Collaborators

Shouldn't the word be used in the text? Xx236 (talk) 07:08, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Probably.

I am not sure how, though. I have added [[Category: Horizontal collaboration]], which certainly seems to be true of Illa Meery at least and probably most if not all of the others. I don't at the moment however have a source for any of the others doing anything specific beyond attending soirées at 93, rue Lauriston.

Pretty sure that King of Nazi Paris, or whatever the title is ,will substantiate that for at least some of them. That book devotes many pages to these women, it looks like. I think it is already used in this article as a named reference (name=king) for Illa Meery's affair with Henri Lafont Maybe wikilink Horizontal collaboration to "mistress"? You tell me. Elinruby (talk) Elinruby (talk) 07:42, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

So you mean that this category should be removed?Category:Collaborators during World War II occupations Xx236 (talk) 08:28, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

@Xx236: if we're talking about the Horizontal collaboration category, no that wasn't what I meant, and it probably shouldn't be removed if you ask me since it definitely applies to Illa Meery and probably some of the others as well. King of Paris says that one of them had a secret past as a prostitute, but it isn't a preview page at Google Books and the snippet doesn't include the name. However the translated French text calls one of them a "courtesan" so I am pretty comfortable with "horizontal collaboration" as a category for the article.

If we are talking about another category, it is entirely possible that one or more other categories applies, but I have not looked into that in any d ; you are welcome to do so if interested. But so far I can't source that anybody on that list but Ila Meery did any collaboration beyond attending parties thrown by a black marketeer. Is that collaboration? I am not sure that it is, since the black market undermined Vichy's authority and participation in it came to be seen as patriotic support for the Resistance (see third subsection of #History at Marchë noir en France pendant la Seconde Guerre Mondiale, which is still being translated).

But we're still adding English sources and given what I have read so far about these women I am fairly confident that something will surface in them that can be called collaboration in wikivoice. If I were guessing, most likely blackmailing rich Jews, but that is a guess at this point that I cannot put in the article yet. Elinruby (talk) 18:14, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

@Xx236: I *thought* I added.a Horizonal collaboration category, but I don't see it, even in the history, nor does the category seem to even exist. I must be remembering it from fr.wikipedia. I will think on whether there is something appropriate over here. Meanwhile Comptesses du Gestapo says that Meery wasn't just sleeping with a black marketer but also had her own black market operation, so I added that category and will keep looking at that source; I have Meery taking furnishings from the apartment of a Jewish couple who had fled Paris; that makes this a Holocaust article in my book and probably also collaboration, even though in that case in was German soldiers helping *her* move the furniture. I'd just like to see other specific incidents and participation by some of the other ladies who lay down before I say that collaboration is a primary theme. Pretty sure the sources are out there for that, though.

Since you seem to be interested in this mobster-Nazi corruption plus lovely women nexus, I will ping you on some of the other articles in the batch of articles about this that I just published, in case you are interested in those.aa well. Elinruby (talk) 04:17, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

@Xx236: it was the Horizontal collaboration as a See also. I think we agree that in this case horizontal collaboration was collaboration? I actually dislike the term because I haven't seen much discussion of survival sex and sexual assaults, but it didn't matter in a discussion of coups carried out in order to collaborate. These society women had agency though, and had choices, so if there ever was a valid use case this is it.

Meanwhile, I have verified that Meery did have her own black market networks in a couple of different times and places, so it was more than just being the mistress of black narketeers. I don't think it's made the article yet though. The other women at a minimum were eye candy for German officers drawn by the glitterati who attended rue Lauriston and it is possible to my mind that that whole criminal/intelligence operation would not have been nearly as important without them. Elinruby (talk) 02:19, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Countess Seckendorff, an authentic German aristocrat who spied on Parisian high society

Needs source Elinruby (talk) 00:37, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

merge

There seems to be very little here, and the term seems to be a title of a book, not an actually widely used term. Slatersteven (talk) 10:27, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

María Angustias Núñez del Prado

Does not seem to be the same person as Marina Núñez del Prado Elinruby (talk) 03:05, 10 August 2023 (UTC)