Talk:Council of Vienne

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Needs an extensive re-write

The article is in general poorly written and needs an extensive re-write. For example in just the first section:

Above all else ... This sounds like we are missing something before

confirming the destruction of the rich Order by the bureaucrats ... Too much detail for the introductory sentence. Order does not need a capital letter. The sentence immediately prompts the question "did the Pope destroy the order or did he do it on the instigation of the bureaucrats of the King of France?". This sort of discussion can wait until later in the article. .

fine old city ... wouldn't 'city' suffice?

technically outside the jurisdiction of the king of France ... is there a reason that a location was chosen outside the jurisdiction of the King of France (which has two capital letters incidentally).

How can something on the Rhone be "quite convenient to Paris"? Does this mean its neutral location suited the government in Paris or was it thought to be just down the road?

avowedly regarding not only the Order of Knights Templar, but also, perhaps ominously, "its lands." mystifying

but special notice had already been sent to the Templars does this in anyway link to the preceding clause? The 'but' appears to be a randomly chosen conjunction.

What are defensores?

'willy-nilly' is not really encyclopedic

Sorry to be brutal, but it needs a good review. JMcC 18:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Latest edit

The latest edit is a little better but not much. I have therefore had a go at editing part of it below to demonstrate what I mean. I have not edited the article itself for fear of changing its meaning unintentionally.

The Council of Vienne was an Ecumenical Council that met between 1311 and 1312 in Vienne. Its principal act was to withdraw papal support for the Knights Templar on the instigation of the King of France, Philip IV.

Background

The Knghts Templar were founded after the First Crusade of 1096 to ensure the safety of European pilgrims to Jerusalem. In the following centuries the order grew in power and wealth. In the early 1300s, Philip IV of France needed money urgently to continue his war with England and so he accused the Grand Master of the Templars, Jacques De Molay, of corruption. In 1307 Philip had all French Templars arrested, charged with heresies, and tortured by the French authorities until they allegedly confessed. This action released Philip from his obligation to repay loans from the Templars and allowed him to confiscate the Templar's assets in France.

The Pope, Clement V, was under the control of Philip. The Pope's predecessor, Boniface VIII, had claimed supremacy over Philip and had excommunicated him when Philip disagreed. However Boniface was seized by a party of horsemen under the command of Philip's men. Though he was later released, the Pope died shortly after. Boniface's successor, Pope Clement, thereafter followed Philip's directions. Although ecumenical councils in the Roman Catholic church are summoned by the Pope, the Council of Vienne was in reality convened at Philip's behest to disband the Templars elsewhere.

Calling of the Council

Pope Clement V caused the council to meet by issuing a bull called Regnans in coelis on August 12, 1308. The city chosen was Vienne which is on the Rhône River and at the time was outside the direct control of Philip IV. The neutral setting was intended to give the impression of independent action.

The main item on agenda of council not only cited the Order of Knights Templar itself, but also "its lands", which indicated that further seizures of property were proposed. However the agenda also invited archbishops and prelates to bring proposals for improvements in the life of the Church.

Special notice were sent to the Templars directing them to send suitable defensores (defenders) to the council. The Grand Master Jacques de Molay and others had also been commanded to appear in person. However Molay was already imprisoned in Paris and trials of other Templars were already in progress. This delayed the opening of the council, .... the clause beginning "and the process respecting the late Boniface VIII" lacks a main verb and is untranslatable. I have stopped there. JMcC 07:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Latest edit

What was wrong with wording similar to the sample above? eg First sentence should just say what the Council was. By starting with "In its most important acts..." it still sounds like the reader has arrived halfway through something. Has anyone else this century use avowedly? Needs an editor whose first language is English. JMcC 22:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In the absence of action by anyone else, I have extensively edited the article & removed the 'confusing' tag. JMcC 16:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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