Talk:Corvée

Czech, slavic case

There is not mentioned Czech or slavic case from which word robot came.It is mentioned reversly in article of robots.

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BetacommandBot 11:24, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Labor history, vs Economic history

I came to this article when it was small, and I was working on the Amarna letters. It is obvious (to me) why the extremely nice Nuribta letter turned into one of my favorites. (It was undamaged, short, concise, and made its statement.)

I just did the Commons Category... And put it under (Wikipedia:)[:Category:Workers]...(doesn't exist, there are about 8 subcats in commons(the master cat is "People by occupation"-(I just checked)) When I originally found the "corvee bowl" photo... I think I searched for other "corvee" items, and found none... (I think)... anyhow...Now there were 18 items under the search for 'corvee'... and I'm pretty sure the category for it should be a: "type of worker", in this case, forced or unfree labor..

I just reordered the categories, read my first reason, then asked myself about "cat:economic history",... as I went to put it after the History of china, history of europe, .. I threw in Category:Labor history,... and there it was. So now it is in both....(from ArizonaUSA-.. theDeserts).. Mmcannis (talk) 00:13, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

North Korea

There ought to be an added section for North Korea, whose citizens (in particular students) are often required to contribute to public works projects without compensation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.65.229.43 (talk) 16:37, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Philippines?

During Spanish colonial times there was a similar work system but I do not know enough about it to add a section. Does anyone else want to add a section? --Bruce Hall (talk) 03:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I added a section, which is almost word-for-word from another Wikipedia article (which I linked to). I am not sure what the etiquette of that is but I figure that allowances are given for Wiki-to-Wiki copying. --Bruce Hall (talk) 12:01, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

What's the difference between this and Forced Labor?

Should there also be a forced labor article? Should there be a section on corvee labor in the forced labor article? --Bruce Hall (talk) 12:01, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

"Forced labor" appears to be the more general or "superordinate" term, so they should probably not be merged... AnonMoos (talk) 01:45, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Considering the size of the article i've put a link from the forced labour article to this one. It's best not to integrate them, giant articles are a plague of wikipedia. Abyss of enchantment (talk) 20:05, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Dubious statement - Corvée not a tax

The corvée and the tithe were the earliest forms of government taxation according to A World History of Tax Rebellions by David F. Burg (Introduction, page viii). Other than just straight slave labour, I believe the Egyptians used the corvée and tithe to help with various projects including the pyramids. PMLawrence has added a source for the corvée not being a tax but it is an unreliable Wikipedia-like online editable source, so I have removed it. I can also find no mention of the corvée actually in the citation. Edits need to be backed up by reliable secondary sources (see WP:SECONDARY). Unless a reliable source is forthcoming soon, I will go ahead and delete the statement. See Wikipedia:Citing sources. Nirvana2013 (talk) 14:24, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

PMLawrence has added a source for the corvée not being a tax but it is an unreliable Wikipedia-like online editable source

That last part is plain wrong. That source was itself the article on taxation from the Encyclopædia Britannica 1911 Edition! It cannot be an unacceptable authority for me to cite yet an acceptable one to draw on in regard to discussing corvée, as you do below, so it should at the very least have been left in while further discussion was requested. PMLawrence (talk) 10:09, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

yet an acceptable one to draw on in regard to discussing corvée

The source you gave was not the actual Encyclopædia Britannica but an online editable version.

Doesn't that apply to any linked source? Would it help more if I simply stated that I had seen and referred to the actual, original hard copy version, and provided a citation that simply said "Encyclopædia Britannica" without giving an on line link? By chance, I have seen that, though it was some time ago; the copy in the private library of Professor Geoffrey Blainey, one of the Encyclopædia Britannica's current editors, whom I know slightly. I might be able to contact him in the New Year, if that would help. PMLawrence (talk) 03:12, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

This is the source you should have provided: Taxation entry on the Encyclopædia Britannica. Not an online editable version. Nirvana2013 (talk) 08:45, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

That has the defect of being inaccessible; when I tried to download it, it stalled in the "C"s. The version I linked to is only editable to remove scanning errors as its editors' remit is limited to that, as far as I can tell. The fact that I gave people easy access to one particular on line resource does not make the citation of the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica - which can be checked separately - any less legitimate. Again I ask, would a simple reference to the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica itself suffice, leaving it to readers to find their own resources for it? I will take silence as confirmation. PMLawrence (talk) 22:03, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Try Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition#External_links. You can view online or download whatever format you prefer. Once again though this article is about defining what the corvee is from reliable (and preferably secondary) sources. It is not about defining what tax is or is not, and thus implying that a corvee is not a tax by original research. Just provide a source stating that the corvee is not a tax. Once you have this, then we can present both sides of the debate in the article as per Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Nirvana2013 (talk) 23:35, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I have only listed the text below to help you and other editors.

If you are not willing to use it, it's no help. PMLawrence (talk) 03:12, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I have not used Encyclopædia Britannica 1911 Edition as a source on the article, as secondary sources are preferred to tertiary sources (like Encyclopædia Britannica, see WP:SECONDARY). Nirvana2013 (talk) 16:45, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Please clarify what you would consider a secondary source. I am not asking for a - secondary, ironically - reference to wikipedia's own standards but to your own, so as to save time cutting to the chase. PMLawrence (talk) 03:12, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

A book (other than self-published) would suffice, see Secondary source. Nirvana2013 (talk) 08:51, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I can also find no mention of the corvée actually in the citation.

Well, you wouldn't expect to find that in an article on tax if a corvée really wasn't a tax, would you? But you can find a full description of tax, which makes it clear that tax refers to an obligation to a government in the form of money - which is the clarification I was making in pointing out that a corvée or a tithe, while tax like in many respects, is not actually a tax in the formal sense. Rather than further break up the flow of the discussion here, I will append more discussion and reasoning lower down. PMLawrence (talk) 10:09, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

You need to provide a citation saying that the corvée is not a tax, rather than your own research. See Wikipedia:No original research. Nirvana2013 (talk) 16:45, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Eh? Don't you need to provide a citation saying that a corvée is a tax? (And no, the Ancient Egyptian practice doesn't qualify - it was a non-cash economy and, by the standards I have seen, extending that substitute usage would count as research; see my earlier discussion further down.) Would you be willing to settle for anything other than an explicit statement in so many words, or would you always classify an inference from wording like "in lieu of" as "research"? I would be perfectly happy to omit any reference to tax altogether, except for the fact that the issue might come up again. Also, do you wish to address the substantive matters I put lower down, last time? PMLawrence (talk) 03:12, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

See the Introduction on page viii in A World History of Tax Rebellions by David F. Burg. He is not only referring to Egypt but the corvée in general. Yes, you need to provide a source that explicitly states that the corvée is not a tax as Burg explicitly states that it is. Then the article could read something like "Some authors claim that the corvée was one of the first forms of taxation, whilst others declare that it is in fact not a tax but a..." Wording like "in lieu of" is fine as it is in the reference. Nirvana2013 (talk) 09:11, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

No, by your own standards the Burg work, a self-described encyclopedia, is unacceptable from being a tertiary source. You also appear to have overlooked the point I made that Burg's emphasis wasn't on the technicalities of what is or is not a tax, and so is not providing an authority on that; for him that would have been a quibble as his emphasis was on revolts and rebellions, just as it would be a quibble to say that a slave revolt was not one as the people involved were actually indentured labourers or peons working under conditions of bonded debt - a meaningful distinction for some purposes. I am considering deleting your own citation of it and replacing it with "citation needed", but I will leave you some time to follow up Burg's own references and cite those or any others you may prefer. I will take a little time to draft a suggested wording and citation(s) based on dictionary entries, then post it below for review before submitting it. PMLawrence (talk) 22:03, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Here is a list of a few references (there are many more): "Corvée, the mandatory contribution of personal labor to the state, was the earliest form of taxation for which records exist; indeed, in the ancient Egyptian language the word "labor" was a synonym for taxes." (A history of taxation and expenditure in the Western world by Carolyn Webber, p.68); "The term oa is defined as conscripted labor or corvee and is used to refer to the abstract concept as well as to actual work gangs. Essentially, oa is a form of taxation" (In the service of the king: Officialdom in ancient Israel and Judah by Nili Sacher Fox p.136); "The earliest form of taxation known to our ancestors in the ancient times was called 'corvee' by European scholars, meaning the mandatory labour to the state" (Evolution of Calcutta customs: a study in history by A. K. Raha); "Certainly, communal holdings had increased in response to the harsh burden that corvee labour and other forms of taxation imposed" (Indonesian exports, peasant agriculture and the world economy by Hiroyoshi Kanō, p.361); "The second main form of taxation was the corvee" (The Middle East in the world economy, 1800-1914 by Roger Owen, p.143); "The earliest and most widespread form of taxation was the corvée" (A World History of Tax Rebellions by David F. Burg). I will add my deleted edit back into the article in the next few days. "The corvée was the earliest and most widespread form of taxation, which can be traced back to the beginning of civilization. It was state-imposed forced labour on peasants too poor to pay other forms of taxation (labour in ancient Egyptian is a synonym for taxes)." Nirvana2013 (talk) 23:22, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

From the Encyclopædia Britannica 1911 Edition:

CORVEE, in feudal law, the term used to designate the unpaid labour due from tenants, whether free or unfree, to their lord; hence any forced labour, especially that exacted by the state, the word being applied both to each particular service and to the system generally. Though the corv6e formed a characteristic feature of the feudal system, it was, as an institution, much older than feudalism, and was already developed in its main features under the Roman Empire. Thus, under the Roman system, personal services (operae) were due from certain classes of the population not only to the state but to private proprietors. Apart from the obligations (operae officiates) imposed on freed- men as a condition of their enfranchisement, which in the country usually took the form of unpaid work on the landlord's domain, the semi-servile coloni were bound, besides paying rent in money or kind, to do a certain number of days' unremunerated labour on that part of the estate reserved by die landed proprietor. The state also exacted personal labour (operae publicae), in lieu of taxes, from certain classes for such purposes as the upkeep of roads, bridges and dykes; while the inhabitants of the various regions were responsible for the maintenance of the posting system (cursus publicus), for which horses, carts or labour would be requisitioned.

Under the Prankish kings, who in their administration followed the Roman tradition, this system was preserved. Thus for the repair of roads, or other public works, within their jurisdiction the counts were empowered to requisition the labour of the inhabitants of the pagus, while the missi and other public functionaries on their travels were entitled to demand from the population en route entertainment and the means of transport for themselves and their belongings. It was, however, the economic revolution which between the 6th and roth centuries converted the Gallo-Roman estates into the feudal model, and the political conditions under which the officials of the Prankish empire developed into hereditary feudal nobles, that evolved the system of the corvee as it existed throughout the middle ages and, in some countries, survived far into the ipth century. The Roman estate had been cultivated by free farmers, by coloni, and by slave labour. Under Prankish rule the farmers became coloni or hospites, the slaves, serfs. The estate was now habitually divided into the lord's domain (terra indominicata, dominicum) and a series of allotments (mansi), parcels of land distributed by lot to the cultivators of the domain, who held them, partly by payment of rent in money or kind, partly by personal service and labour on the domain, these obligations both as to their nature and amount being very rigorously denned and permanently fixed in the case of each mansus and passing with the land to each new tenant. They varied, of course, very greatly according to the size of the holding and the needs of the particular estate, but they possessed certain common character- istics which are everywhere found. Luchaire (Manuel, p. 346) divides all corvees into two broad categories, (i) corv6es properly so called, (2) military services. The second of these, so far as the obligation to serve in the host (Hostis et equitatus) is concerned, was common to all classes of feudal society; though the obliga- tion of villeins to keep watch and ward (guela, warda) and to labour at the building or strengthening of fortifications (muragium, munilio castri) are special corvdes. We are, however, mainly concerned with the first category, which may again be subdivided into two main groups, (i) personal service of men and women (manoperae, manuum operae, Fr. manoeuvres, manual labour), (2) carriage (carroperae, carragia, carrata, &c., Fr. charrois), i.e. service rendered by means of carts, barrows or draught animals. These again were divided into fixed services (operae rigae) and exceptional services, demanded when the others proved in- sufficient. To these latter was given in the 8th century the name of operae corrogatae (i.e. requisitioned works, from rogare, to request. From this term (corrupted into corvatae, cuniadae, corveiae, &c.) is derived the word corv6e, which was gradually applied as a general term for all the various services.

As to the nature of these corvees it must be noted that in the middle ages the feudal lords had replaced the centralized state for all administrative purposes, and the services due to them by their tenants and serfs, were partly in the nature of rent in the form of labour, partly those which under the Roman and Prankish monarchs had been exacted in lieu of taxes, and which the feudal lords continued to impose as sovereigns of their domains. To the former class belonged the service of personal labour in the fields, of repairing buildings, felling trees, threshing corn, and the like, as well as the hauling of corn, wine or wood; to the latter belonged that of labouring on the roads, of building and repairing bridges, castles and churches, and of carrying letters and despatches. Corvees were further distinguished as real, i.e. attached to certain parcels of land, and personal, i.e. due from certain persons.

In spite of the fact that the corvees were usually strictly defined by local custom and by the contracts of tenancy, and that, in an age when currency was rare, payment in personal labour was a convenience to the poor, the system was open to obvious abuses. With the growth of communal life in the towns the townsmen early managed to rid themselves of these burdensome obligations either by purchase, or by exchanging the obligation of personal work for that of supplying carts, draught animals and the like. In the country, however, the system survived all but intact; and, so far as it was modified, was modified for the worse. Whatever safeguards the free cultivators may have possessed, the serfs were almost everywhere especially in the loth and nth centuries actually as well as nominally in this respect at the mercy of their lords (coneables a merci), there being no limit to the amount of money or work that could be demanded of them. The system was oppressive even when the nobles to whom these services were paid gave something in return, namely, protection to the cultivator, his family and his land; they became intolerable when the development of the modern state deprived the land-owners of their duties, but not of their rights. In the case of France, in the iyth century the so-called corvee royale was added to the burden of the peasants, i.e. the obligation to do unpaid labour on the public roads, an obligation made general hi 1738; and this, together with the natural resentment of men at the fact that the land which then- ancestors had bought was still subject to burdensome personal obligations in favour of people whom they rarely saw and from whom they derived no benefit, was one of the most potent causes of the Revolution. By the Constituent Assembly personal corv6es were abolished altogether, while owners of land were allowed the choice of continuing real corvees or commuting them for money. The corvee as an incident of land tenure has thus disappeared in France. The corvee royale of repairing the roads, however, abolished in 1789, was revived, under the name of prestation, under the Consulate, by the law of 4 Thermidor an X., modified by subsequent legislation in 1824, 1836 and 1871. Under these laws the duty of keeping the roads in repair is still vested in the local communities, and all able-bodied men are called upon either to give three days' work or its equivalent hi money to this purpose. It is precisely the same system as that in force under the Roman Empire, and if it differ from the corv6e it is mainly in the fact that the burden is equitably distributed, and that the work done is of actual value to those who do it.

As regards other countries, the corv6e was everywhere, sooner or later, abolished with the serfdom of which it was the principal incident (see SERFDOM). Though so early as 1772 Maria Theresa had endeavoured to mitigate its hardships in her dominions (in Hungary unpaid labour was only to be demanded of the serfs on 52 days in the year!) it survived longest in the Austrian empire, being finally abolished by the revolution of 1848. The duty of personal labour on the public roads is, however, still maintained in other countries besides France. This was formerly the case in England also, where the occupiers of each parish who, by the common law, had access to the roads were responsible also for their upkeep. An act of 1 555 imposed four days of forced labour for the repair of roads, and an act of Elizabeth (5 Eliz. c. 13) raised the number of days to six, or the payment of a composition instead. Ths system of turnpikes, dating from 1663, which gradually extended over the whole of England, lessened the burden of this system of taxation, so far as main roads were concerned, but the greater number of the local roads were subject to repair by statutory labour until the Highways Act 1835, by which highways were put under the direction of a parish surveyor, and the necessary expenses met by a rate levied on the occupiers of land. In Scotland, statutory labour on highways was created by an act of 1719, and abolished in 1883.

In Egypt, the corvee has been employed from time immemorial, more especially for the purpose of cleaning out the irrigation canals. In the days when only one harvest a year was reaped, this forced labour was not a very great burden, but the intro- duction of cotton and the sugar-cane under Mehemet Ali changed the conditions. These latter are crops which require watering at various seasons of the year, and very often the fellah was called away for work in the canals at times when his own crops required the utmost attention. Moreover, the inequality of the corvee added to the evil. In some districts it was possible to purchase exemption, and the more wealthy paid no more for the privilege than the humblest fellah, consequently the corvee fell with undue hardship on the poorer classes. Under the premiership of Riaz Pasha the corvee was gradually abolished in Egypt between the years 1888 and 1891, and a small rate on the land substituted to provide the labour necessary for cleaning the canals. The corvee is now employed only to a limited extent to guard the banks of the Nile during flood.

See Du Cange, Glossarium inf. et med. Lat. s.v. "Corvatae"; A Luchaire, Manuel des institutions franfaises (Paris, 1892), pp. 346-349; La Grande Encyclopedic, s.v., with bibliography. For further works see the bibliography to the article SERFDOM. Nirvana2013 (talk) 14:44, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

First of all, note that that very excerpt above, argued in favour of the idea of a corvée being a tax, itself contains wording making the very distinction I have been trying to make: "...exacted in lieu of [emphasis added] taxes...". And nowhere does that excerpt actually state that a corvée is a tax.

Second, note that a passage about Madagascar that I provided on an earlier occasion, complete with references, continues to distinguish between tax obligations and labour obligations: "The General therefore passed a temporary law, in which taxation and labour [emphasis added] were combined... Exempted from taxation and labour [emphasis added] were...".

Third, note that the introductory part of the (sound, reliable) Encyclopædia Britannica 1911 Edition article on taxation I cited makes it clear that taxation is a compulsory raising of revenue in the form of money, drawing on the income of the people. In support of this I will excerpt it below, with important words emphasised:-

TAXATION (from "tax," derived, through the French, from Lat. taxare, to appraise, which again is connected with the same root as tangere, to touch), that part of the revenue [emphasis added] of a state which is obtained by compulsory dues and charges upon its subjects. The state may have revenue [emphasis added] from property of its own. In past times one of the principal sources of the revenue [emphasis added] of the sovereign was in fact property of some sort, of which the crown lands in Great Britain, still administered by the government, are a remnant. In other countries, even at the present time, there is a large public domain yielding revenue [emphasis added]. Local authorities also largely own property from which a revenue [emphasis added] is obtained. But as a rule, and in spite of what has often been the practice in the past, and of exceptions which may still exist in some countries, a government obtains the money [emphasis added] required for its expenses by means of taxation. Some of the apparent exceptions, moreover, appear to be only exceptions in name. It is contended, for instance, that the revenue [emphasis added] from land obtained by the government of India is in reality of the nature of a land rent - a species of property owned by the government. But the fact of a government levying so general a charge may be held ipso facto to convert the charge into a tax, having much the same economic effects and consequences as a tax. When, moreover, a state receives a revenue [emphasis added] from property, some of the economic consequences may be the same as if it received the money [emphasis added] by means of a tax. In both cases there is absorption and administration by the state of so much of the income [emphasis added] of the community, and it may be a question whether the private ownership of the property would not be more expedient both for the state and its subjects than state ownership is, in spite of the apparent advantage to all concerned in the state getting so much of its income [emphasis added] without the compulsion of a tax.

Finally, in the light of all this, I would submit that whatever equivalences were present in Ancient Egyptian, that have been rendered by a translator interchangeably as tax, tithe, labour or corvée, only indicate their general likeness (which I do not dispute) and are suitable for that reference work's purposes. However, for this and related articles, we are trying to bring out more technical aspects and make more formal distinctions - or we should be. We should not deny the likeness, so as not to make a quibble for people who only need to make casual uses - but we should make the distinctions all the same, for the sake of people who might need to be technical. I believe that my wording allows the general likeness while still making the sound distinctions. As Einstein is reputed to have remarked, "make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler [emphasis added]". PMLawrence (talk) 10:09, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Just provide a source for this view of the corvée, rather than your own research into what defines a tax and hence the corvée. Nirvana2013 (talk) 09:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Socage

'Corvée' seems to be a generic term for phenomena like socage (cf. 'boyarshchina' in this article), yet the two articles aren't linked to each other. Is this because of some Anglo-Saxon terminological tradition concerning these terms? 89.231.108.159 (talk) 16:14, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Workfare

The statement that the UK Workfare scheme is a form of corvée was recently added without citation. I'm putting this in Talk as I'm unsure whether this is a non-neutral point of view, as it is a contentious political issue, or if the Workfare scheme fits the definition of corvée. Thanks for opinions.

The edit: [1]

--Thanks, Ainlina(box)? 12:15, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Section on Vietnam

When doing research for a history project, I noticed there was no section on the Corvée in South Vietnam. This should be amended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.177.166.131 (talk) 21:39, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Praise for the article, because Taxation = Slavery

Slavery is when the fruits of a person's labor are confiscated for the benefit of some other individual or individuals. Therefore a person whose income is taxed at a rate of 100% is indistinguishable from a slave, and the degree to which you are taxed is the degree to which you are enslaved.

The article says "The corvée was the earliest and most extensive form of taxation," and it also contains the Slavery template. It is quite logical for the article to contain both of these elements, and I'd like to thank the article's editors for providing further proof of the equivalence of taxation and slavery. 174.24.42.46 (talk) 06:17, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Jury duty

Is required jury duty a firm of corvee labor? Receiving a check - though small - might change the circumstance. - - Ray Birks, 7/31/2017.

RayBirks (talk) 14:05, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Poll tax

How is corvée different from a poll tax? --95.24.65.191 (talk) 11:20, 15 March 2024 (UTC)