Talk:Cortes Island

References to add

Might link to Cortes Island (Hansen Airfield) Airport. Is the island named after Hernán Cortés? KenWalker | Talk 15:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

This is indeed the case.

Hernan Cortes or another?

I think the Akriggs may be wrong here; they sometimes are; the name of this island has come up in a http://thetyee.ca debate/forum and I "started" when I saw it. There have been lots of Cortes-es in the history of the Spanish Empire; "Cortes" is also the name of the Spanish parliament ("the court", get it?); a consultation with Quadra's logs is thet only resolution of this; was there, for instance, a crew member named Cortes?Skookum1 (talk) 21:34, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Seems that nearly all the Spanish names in the general area north of Texada Island (given by Galiano and Valdes) are for members of their earlier expedition under Malaspina or for something related to their own expedition -- Malaspina Strait & Peninsula, Sutil Channel (Galiano's ship), Quadra Island, Maurelle Island (not with but related to Malaspina's voyage), Sonora Island (another ship), and farther north, Goletas Channel (the Spanish ships were goletas), Cape Sutil, Mexicana Island (ship), I believe there is a Bustamante Mountain around. And farther south Galiano Island and Valdes Island. As far as I can recall the book I read on Galiano's voyage did not say anything about the naming of Cortes Island, but if it is after the 16th century conquistador it would be an usual exception from the pattern of the names given during that expedition. It seems much more likely that it was named for someone or something related to the 1792 voyage. I'll keep my eyes open for more info. Perhaps the Hernando Island just south of Cortes Island makes it seem obvious, but these Spanish names often repeat. For example, it's easy to assume that Valdes Island is named for the same person as Valdez, Alaska and the oil tanker that wrecked. In fact the Gulf Island "Valdes" is named for the nephew of the Alaska "Valdez". Pfly (talk) 23:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Additional note: Man the sources on this are confused and messy. I have to say I like a comment in the book A Discovery Journal: George Vancouver's First Survey Season by John E. Roberts, who writes that while the "mortification" felt by Vancouver upon meeting Galiano and Valdés is often commented upon, "our local histories have failed to mention the mortification that must have been felt by Galiano and Valdés ... upon meeting this fat little Protestant..." Hehe... Pfly (talk) 04:26, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, after some research it seems clear that there is probably no definitive answer -- but quite a few sources say the name is "presumably" after the conquistador, including the BCGNIS page on it. Apparently it was named in 1792, as the logs of Vancouver refer to it as Cortes Island -- but the Spanish logs are silent. So it may be a case of "we'll never know". Thus I added "presumably" to the text. Pfly (talk) 05:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Well as you probably know Hernan and Hernando are different names, not just variant forms of each other. It's your comment about the pattern of the other Spanish-language names; Aristazabal up the coast, for instance; there's no Ferdinand and Isabella, no Pizzaro, no Balboa, no nada of the imperial New Spain nomenclature that people think it's about; I think the Akriggs just made an assumption; like I say they've made other errors, seems plausible this is one. Oh here is the Tyee article; you'll find a Cortes Island discussion in the forum below it (and me with the same username as here).Skookum1 (talk) 05:54, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Yea, I'd guess Hernando might have been Anglicized at some point, or perhaps was named later after Cortes was assumed to be for Hernan. But I don't know. And of course I can't really say the Spanish logs are silent -- just the one published account I read. Even then I may have overlooked it. I'll look again next time I'm at the library. Personally, I suspect the island wasn't named for the conquistador, but that has certainly become the commonly cited origin of the name. The only thing I can think of that might have gotten Galiano to name it for Hernan Cortes was that Cortes, I think, was remembered for "founding" Spanish ship exploration in the Pacific Ocean. It is interesting to note that Akriggs simply states the conquistador was the person honored, while several other good sources say "presumably", and some just say the conquistador's name is "evoked". I'll keep poking around, but we may never know. At least we can say we don't truly know. Pfly (talk) 19:15, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, as I said, the full records of Spanish exploration in the PacNW have only very recently been unsealed. Volumes and volumes of material are in Madrid, yet to be translated (the Aranzazu was a scientific exploration ship, should be interesting logs for everything from botany to ethnography to maybe early/proto-CJ or other language/culture bits hitherto unknown). The logic of the name makes no sense to me, as you note it doesn't fit the pattern of Spanish naming. Given La Raza nearby, "the people" loosely, "the parliament/court" makes a lot more sense as origin, but it's not a term as well=known in English as teh conqueror's name. Cortez (and there's a spelling difference, which in Spanish is generally a big deal in terms of difference) is not "honoured" on the California coast, not north of the Sea of Cortez anyway. Why here? My bet is it's not Cortez, it's Cortes. I wish I had the Pethick book, First Explorations of the Northwest Coast - it's pretty detailed and might have something, if only a bibliographical reference. Failing that we could recruit someone from http://es.wikipedia.org in Spain to go to the naval archives there and do some digging....James Delgado, former head of the Vancouver Maritime Museum and now at a similar institution in, I think, Florida, might be someone to go to for answers.....Skookum1 (talk) 19:25, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The one thing I was able to dig up online was a note from the book A Discovery Journal: George Vancouver's First Survey Season - 1792, p. 139, saying that Cayetano Valdes charted out the strait between East and West Redonda Islands in 1792 and the Spanish charts show the name "Isla Redonda" for today's East Redonda Island and "Isla de Cortes" for today's West Redonda Island. This during the time when Vancouver and the Spanish spent time anchored together and collaborating -- their main base being between West Redonda and Cortes Islands, in today's Teakerne Arm and nearby sites. Today's Lewis Channel, just to the north, was called "Canal de la Separacion" by the Spanish because that was where the two expeditions split up and went their separate ways. Also, there are plenty of Spanish names that no longer exist at all and, in going through them, the ones given during Galiano's voyage are so far entirely related to their crew or Malaspina/Bustamante's, or to one or another of their sponsors/commanders in Mexico or Spain, or just descriptive of the places ("Channel of More Whirlpools" is a good one -- today's Wellbore Channel). ...more later. Pfly (talk) 21:32, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Just to note that "Wellbore" is a reasonable facsimile of "channel of More Whirlpools", if you consider the various meanings of "bore". Must bve one hell of a skookumchuck right there....Skookum1 (talk) 21:56, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Heh, true. In Spanish it was "Canal de Nuevos Remolinos". It was "more" whirlpools since they had already passed through one "Canal de Remolinos". Apparently their little ships were more than once caught in whirlpools and spun around uncontrollably for a bit. Vancouver took the easier passage while Galiano insisted on taking the harder, more easterly one. Amazing they made it.

I've noticed other instances where the Spanish and English names coincide, as is also the case in the Interior; Lac La Hache, orig/also Axe lake etc. Can't think of othres on the Coast but I know there are some...jsut can't think of them right now. As for the whirlpool thing, it's an interesting cultural consideration; the fat little Englishman taking the preferred route in his culture, the garden path of the two, amd safer, the Spanish/Mexican captain wanting to challenge the current...Skookum1 (talk)

I did manage to drop by the library, and alas, none of the books I thought might shed light had any to shed. Galiano's report (not really a log actually) doesn't even mention Cortes Island, nor Redonda, at least by name. Anchorages are described on the shores of what is obviously Redonda and/or Cortes, but no specific names given. The only island in the immediate area specifically named is "Isla de Quema" (Kinghorn Island today), where they first anchored. So named because Vancouver's people had apparently set fire to it. The best I could find was that the pool of sailors based in San Blas, Mexico, experienced in the Pacific Northwest (a fairly small pool as I understand), included an Ignacio Cortés and a Juan Hernández, both of whom sailed with Juan Pérez in 1774 (Hernández as "Mate"). I don't know the names of Galiano and Valdes's crews, but they were able to hand-pick the best people thanks to Malaspina's influence. Still, no answers. I did check out the Fur Trade book so maybe I'll look at the Columbia Department for a while instead. :-) Pfly (talk) 01:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

If you're in Vancouver try MacLeod's Books; Don might have something, tell him I sent you and say hi (see my userpage for realworld ID) links, somewhere in there. Might be in there in something, but you might hagve tto read it there, prices for old books can be steep as you know; Hernandez could easily have been anglicized/mutated to Hernando by our culture; or it could have been his nickname, though of course it's a personal name - Hernando - not a family name like Hernandez. Another example is Lac des francais, now Francois Lake....The Columbia Department/Columbia District distinction I've been thinking about; the Department is the administrative department, hence its presence in charter documents; the District is the territory the Department operates in; subtle but still relevant; doesn't mean they have to be same articles but the distinction should be observed....btw the Spanish charts, do they say "Isla de Cortes" or "Isla de la Cortes"??Skookum1 (talk) 05:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm in Seattle. But next time I'm in Vancouver I'll try to check that place out. The book said "Isla de Cortes" -- I don't know what chart it sourced -- another Google Books thing... I don't understand how they determine which pages you can view or not. On the Columbia District/Department, this book seems pretty clear... I'll get to that in a few days no doubt. --oh one other thing about Cortes and Hernando Islands-- in the 1840s Henry Kellett reorganized the British charts of the whole Pacific Northwest in order to resolve discrepancies between various sources. In the process he changed quite a lot of names, especially in the area of British-American-Spanish joint naming (the San Juans especially). In quite a few cases he moved names around and invented names of his own. Thanks to him the Spanish name for the Strait of Georgia got moved to present-day Rosario Strait. I would not be surprised if he messed around with Cortes and Hernando too. But I don't know a source that actually describes what he did up there. My only source for him is Washington only, sadly. I have a (totally unsubstantiated) hunch that he named Hernando Island, based on the nearby Cortes. But I've yet to find a full source on this "reorganization" of the charts. Pfly (talk) 05:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

"Velly intellesting"....Canal se Nuestra Señora del Rosario, Channel of Our Lady of the Rosary, wasn't it? Yeah I'd suspect some fiddling for sure...be interesting to compare before and after charts/names systematically....I always did think "Vancouver's and Quadra's Island/Isle" had a catchier ring to it....what was their name for Baker again? Nuestra Señora de Carmelo? Or just Monte de Carmelo? Howe's Sound has that antique look, also, no?Skookum1 (talk) 05:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[haven't read your two most recent edits...this is jut post-edit conflicts]Well, if it's a Spanish sourcebook/map and that was the name for sure then that kind of rules out the parliament theory, given the presence of the definite article in Isla de la Raza...the Cadiz Cortes is a bit later anyway than this period...you've gbot me intrigued with the Columbia Department thing...if Don dosn't have anything Stephen Lunsford, Bookseller (funky office, not a store, in the Dominion Building) or maybe Colophon might...I think Antiquarius went out of business, Albion Books always has things you won't see elsewhere, though mostlyh newer...Don would know who/where, he's pored over some of the older materials so as to know what's in them.... I'll see if I can dig up James Delgado for you...interesting witer/historian, a great loss to the region when he relocated...Skookum1 (talk) 05:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the source for "Isla de Cortes" comes from a British log entry, describing a Spanish chart, if I recall right and that book is to be trusted. It could be the Spanish Cortes/Court name comes from that being the place of their dealing with and working with the British. But really at this point I am out of good, easily followable leads. And yes, Cadiz Cortes is too late. Though it is interesting to note that Galiano and especially Valdes seems to have been fairly "Age of Enlightenment" people who don't strike me as the type of venerate Hernan Cortez. Valdes, especially, went on to fight on the republican side of the Spanish Civil War, and afterwards had to seek British protection (Galiano died too soon, at Trafalgar). Malaspina, who both obviously held in high respect, was so much an enlightenment figure that he was exiled from Spain. His political downfall was due to his energetic efforts to free the Spanish colonies -- how much less imperial can you be? It is hard to believe that any of them would have found fit to see Hernan Cortez in a positive light. Howe Sound they named "Boca de Carmelo" -- oddly similar to their name for Baker. Anyway, I found a book on Narvaez, who was apparently the first European to sail into the Strait of Georgia -- perhaps some interesting stuff will come from that (thought probably not related to Cortes Island) ...nice chatting, even if we've filled up this talk page pretty well!

Name origin etc

Looking at old Spanish maps, such as this one, I can see that Isla Cortes was named by the Spanish way back then -- though the name appears on a little sliver of an island that is actually a piece of West Redonda Island. Everything to the west is sketchy. Cortes Island itself is just a few coastline fragments, not clearly an island. More curious to me is Hernando Island, supposedly named in 1792 along with Cortes Island and making the case that both are named for Hernan Cortez. This old map, and others, do not show Hernando Island as an island at all, but just another unnamed coastline fragment. Along with fragments of Savary Island and bits of pieces of Cortes Island, these fragments look more like part of Vancouver Island than islands in their own right. In addition, Galiano's report describes their very fast sail from Point Grey (Vancouver) to Desolation Sound -- they sailed with Vancouver non-stop the whole way and it was dusk by the time they reached the vicinity of Hernando Island. There is no mention of any exploration of the area south of Desolation Sound.

So, while I've yet to find a definitive answer, I'm becoming ever more skeptical of the claim that Galiano and Valdes named Hernando Island in 1792, and that Cortes Island is necessarily named for Hernan Cortes, despite the statements by Akrigg and others. I've yet to see a definitive answer one way or the other. But, in looking into it I've learned that a great many place names in the region were given by the Geographic Board of Canada (such as Quadra Island, Sonora Island, and Maurelle Island, all given in 1903). I've also learned that the "18th Report of the Geographic Board" (perhaps spelled "Eighteenth Report..."), published in 1924, summarized all the changes the Board made between 1898 and 1924. This report would be very interesting to see, but I am unable to find it online. So I'm posting this comment about it here in case anyone who might have a clue about how to find it sees this. Any ideas? Other people who bestowed names in honor of Spanish people long after the Spanish were in the region include Capt. John Walbran, Capt. John F. Perry (named Cordero Channel, Dionisio Point, Dikuxante Point, etc. in 1905), Capt. Richards of HMS Plumper (around 1860 or so named a number of things, including Malaspina Strait, Meares Island, Sutil Channel, Galiano Island, Valdes Island, etc.), and Robert Douglas, who was the Secretary of the Geographic Board of Canada from 1916 to at least 1924. If anyone has any ideas on how to find info on the names these people and agencies made, let me know. Maybe we can put to rest some of the assumptions Akrigg was known to make. Pfly (talk) 05:47, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

IRs, traditional territories, MoE Region, Forest Region/District etc all needed

This is at least We wai kum and Kwiakah traditional territory, maybe also Klahoose or Homalco, and there are IRs on the island that need specifying; SFAIK this is the Campbell River Forest District of the Coast Forest Region, and the Vancouver Island-Coast Development Region; Health Region should be included, and local Health Area, not sure what its MoE region is etc. Point is that the ongoing focus on labelling things by regional district is largely meaningless in terms of relevant political geography; e.g. the electoral districts should also be here, also school districts. Regional districts have too much undue weight in Wikipedia, this must start being corrected....that the RD was mentioned here without even proper grammar in the sentence is waht touched me off; all BC articles suffer the same problem....Skookum1 (talk) 02:53, 31 March 2010 (UTC)