Talk:Coronation of the Holy Roman Emperor

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Changes

Surtscina, please take a look at the edits I made to this article: new opening sentence, subsection headers for the main portion, and a few minor stylistic changes; if you don't like any or all of them, please feel free to revert them, as I have no wish to "hijack" your article! I will now proceed to reduce the length of the Holy Roman coronation section in the main Coronation article, as you suggested. - Ecjmartin (talk) 01:03, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is no need to revert anything; you've improved the article a lot! Anyway, this is not my article, so feel free to change whatever needs to be changed! Surtsicna (talk) 11:46, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Crown of Burgundy

Is there a separate crown for Burgundy ? Burgundy is the 3rd component kingdom of HRE, it ceased to be a separate kingdom at the end of 14e century.

Siyac 02:15, 30 January 2013 (UTC)7[reply]

Burgundy was a Duchy of the Empire, so no. Victorian revisionism created an overemphasised understanding of the chivalric basis of feudalism, in practice the communications difficulties caused by the Ardennes-Vosges chain meant it had a stronger relationship with France, who eventually absorbed most of it in the 1440s (not the 14th Century), thanks to the latter's dominance as a risng military power following its adoption of artillery, the first Western European Nation to do so. In consequence, it was highly autonomous. In some areas, moreover, episcopal dioceses straddled the border - Cambrai being a case in point.

You're confusing the Kingdom oF Burgundy (relevant here) with the (French) Duchy of Burgundy and the late-medieval Burgundian state. Str1977 ^(talk) 19:41, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My intuition asks if not the spheres of intersections between chronicles, legends, myths and historiography of archeological records and material were in a state of confusion from the very beginning, so to speak? Yet, it is fairly possible to present and distinguish between what is indicative of self-perception, the endonymous sphere, and the exonymous sphere, indicative of what is imposed - as well as highly regarded - onto whatever historic polity. We may speak of wicks in the plural, embroadening the sphere of interest into the particularities of historical Houses, your house, my ecosystem and so on. I find that what is private and what is state are in a whirl, in historiography, thus my question turns into "what's the time-warp?" In the case of the first sphere, wouldn't it be nice to elucidate the royal House of Burgundy's floating relationship to its legends; which later found it ways into Richard Wagner's Ring Cycle? The Legend of Gjúki (Gebicca) is known from one of the most archaic songs of Norse, one of the great poems of the Poetic Edda, Atlakviða, the Lay of Attila. The Norse pun in the Norse nickname for this ancient, legendary Royal House "Gjukunger"; "Gibbikids" doesn't quite make it because we're talking about the parental manners of cuckoo, this anchestor clan of the royals: "Cuckoochicks", may be closer. There seems to be quite some depths to the satire, of humor in the school of the Icelandic sages, shining most brightly Sæmunðř Froðe of the Poetic Edda, and Snorre Goðe of the Prose Edda. What is thus not unlikely is that these Norse sources may be in some diaconcurrence with the self-perception, or preferred identification-markers as Burgundian people, nobility, clergy and royalty; through the centuries. Be aware how the AI'conversation models (that are free) unrelentlessly brings you closer in lieu with the conventional, albeit sadly, if not horribly truth-tentative. So, of course use the tools, but please don't let AÍ author your conventionals. By using the tools well it seems to me to possibly help out with the disclosing of my own conventionalities and normativity.The spice of style enables our taste's sense of distinction; fun is useful for detectives of all sorts, no fun is a bad sign, as in truth-tentativety may signal an encroaching mindset --Xactnorge (talk) 15:54, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Location

The use of Aix-la-Chapelle was only justified by the now-resolved French claims to the borderlands: the correct modern usage is its German name Aachen, which also recognises the fundamentally German nature of the Holy Roman Empire - indeed, although it also held the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies (approximately the southern half of modern Italy), the Iberian Peninsula and the Lowlands (under Charles V - I use the Renaissance English term to indicate it included Flanders and the residual elements of Burgundy not absorbed by France after the rapprochement of the 1440s), the last objective French claim, that of the Carolingean Empire, was liquidated by the dissolution of the Empire between Charlemagne's grandchildren.

10th bishops

What are “10th bishops”? (in the section Coronation of the Holy Roman Emperor#Crowns used in the ceremonies). Is there a word missing? Or maybe it’s a bad translation from another language? Indefatigable (talk) 21:19, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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Coronation site changes

Question: do we know the reason as to why the coronation site was moved form Aachen to Frankfurt after 1530? I assume it had something to do with the Reformation but was an official reason ever given and if so does anyone have a source for it?--2602:306:8388:9E10:48C0:531C:E20D:B036 (talk) 07:08, 18 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My source is more or less the German wikipedia, but the answer was rather banal: in 1562 when the coronation came, it was almost winter. The electors and so forth were assembled at Frankfurt, because that's where the election had always been; the journey to Aachen would have been harsh at the time; and what for? The see of Cologne was then vacant! So, they stayed at Frankfurt and the coronation was done by the Archbishop of Mayence, who was the highest prelate and elector anyway, and Frankfurt was (then) in his diocese and all. - After that, it seems to have been just a habit they have slipped into. Contributing factors might have been: 1. Frankfurt was just so much better to reach and an established center of the Empire - especially if it is from Austria that you travel. 2. It was always clear who was King; no need to claim "but I've been crowned in the right city"; the Middle Ages, as it were, were over. 3. (this is my personal speculation) If sources can be trusted, the diocese of Liège (to which Aachen then belonged) was taken out of the province of Cologne and given to the province of Mechelen - with an archbishop who was not even a prince of the Empire. Could it now still be justified to have the archbishop of Cologne as a coronator at Aachen? But if not - the archbishop of the technically still Imperial but de-facto already Belgian (Spanish-Netherlands) province of Mechelen who was not a prince - erm hm? If, on the other hand, we switch to Mayence as the obvious next best candidate, why not within the actual diocese of this bishop? - Anyway, an official reason was not given and Aachen was given assurances that it remained technically the coronation city; also the actual city where the Crown Jewels were (which were brought to Frankfurt for each coronation, and then sent back).--138.245.1.1 (talk) 17:01, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also this was the first election after the nearby Habsburg Netherlands became the Spanish Netherlands. That and the proximity of France may have been an issue. Johnbod (talk) 16:21, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The concept of sacrum imperium in historical scholarship

It is not correct to state that the Holy Roman Empire was established The concept of sacrum imperium in historical scholarship