Talk:Cornett

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Zink

This instrument is also called the Zink, so if someone could add that it would be ace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.9.142.143 (talk) 08:18, September 15 2005 (UTC)

The cornetto/cornett was/is known as the "cornet à bouquin" in France and the "corneta" in Spain.

The cornetto continued to be played in parts of Europe and, possibly, the Americas well into the 19th century. A cornett and trombone ensemble was heard in Stuttgart at late as 1840. D'Indy scored a solo cornetto in his opera Fervaal late in the 19th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.54.125 (talk) 00:02, March 19 2006 (UTC)

Contradiction

(of course, the cornett is a woodwind instrument and this comparison is rather flimsy)

This statement is contradictory to statements above that include the cornett with the brass instruments. I am inclined to agree, because I don't think having tone holes (or being made of wood) is enough to make it a woodwind. There are, infact, some trumpets that have tone holes instead of valves, including modern 'baroque' trumpets, and the serpent is an example of another brass instrument made of wood, I believe. In the brass instrument article, there are named several ethnic instruments, such as shell horns, which are not made of any sort of metal, but are still brass instruments. I don't want to change it myself because I am not an expert, but this has been bothering me for a while. --Vlmastra 18:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed it. Calling the cornett a woodwind instrument is as incorrect as calling a saxophone a brass instrument. EldKatt (Talk) 10:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cleaning

We need sources for much of the stuff here, especially regarding the mentions of how contemporaries regarded the cornett. It wouldn't be hard to find, I suspect, and I will look at it when I have time. In the meantime I've removed something that struck me as very odd, namely the italicized part of the following:

Cornett intonation also tended to be fluid, which enabled it to be played perfectly in tune in a range of tonalities and temperaments, unlike other woodwind instruments of the 16th and 17th centuries.

The one basis for this I can imagine is the fact that some contemporary sources (Burney being a rather famous example) occasionally complain about bad intonation from woodwinds. But you should consider the far more numerous instances where woodwinds are mentioned without any mention of such problems suggests that this wasn't really the norm. My experiences with hearing "authentic instruments" played suggest that intonation was never a problem beyond the skills of any good player (and there were plenty of good players back then too). EldKatt (Talk) 10:52, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"violins in consort music and cornetts could be similarly used as a substitutes for violins in consort music"

Umm, this is not really true. Cornetti were almost never used in matched consort playing. Also, a "consort," by definition, implies a very fluid instrumentation. However, in the context of the sentence, I have a very hard time seeing a violin replacing a cornett part in a cornett-sackbutt ensemble... The fluidity of choice between cornetti and violins is from later (early Baroque) when many treble parts in canzoni and sonatas (almost exclusively in Italy) were labeled "violin or cornett." This has NOTHING to do with consort music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmclark (talk • contribs) 03:30, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

cornetto alto: "tall" or "high" cornett?

The text currently says "tall", whereas "high" would make more sense, unless there is a reason for calling it "tall"... -- megA (talk) 16:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

References

There is a problem: when I try to edit and add to the references section I don't see the 3 references given already. Instead I see the translations of cornett in different languages and cannot add other references. Benhomoen (talk) 17:49, 11 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Compass & fingering?

With all that has been written about chiavetti and 'idiomatic' writing in Monteverdi's Vespers, one might turn here expecting to find out what pitches the instrument is capable of and how trills lie under the fingers! Sparafucil (talk) 06:12, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"a design that survives in no modern instrument"

Current text in article: "It embodies a design that survives in no modern instrument; that is, the main tube has only the length of a typical woodwind, but the mouthpiece is of the brass type, relying on a combination of the player's lips and the alteration of the length of the sound column via the opening and closing of the finger holes to alter the pitch of the musical sound."

Actually, the Russian Vladimir horn has been in continuous use until today (videos: [1], [2]), surviving among shepherds and professional musicians (in folk orchestras). Esn (talk) 17:59, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, and I just noticed that the footnote attached to that statement is not a reference citation, but rather a parenthetical comment: "However, a number of similar instruments from other parts of Europe have remained in use until the present day, for example the Russian Vladimir horn." This is of course nonsensical, since no part of Europe was specified in the first place. Since the entire claim is unreferenced, there is no way of determining whether the original intention was to restrict this alleged non-survival to Western Europe, France and the Low Countries, Scotland, or as narrow a geographic area as Bognor Regis. It is amazing that this contradiction has escaped notice for so long. Well-spotted!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:47, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Uh, actually, it was me who added that parenthetical footnote after I wrote the above comment. I was trying to correct things a little without stepping on anyone's toes, as I don't know the history of this article. Esn (talk) 06:37, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also, if the cornett behaves anything like the Russian Vladimir horn (and it seems to be very similar except it has one more finger hole on the front - it would be interesting to compare the fingerings... does the cornett have a thumb hole?), the intonation is indeed extremely malleable. It's possible to play a little melody on a single fingering (but the timbre sounds best closer to the "centre"). Of course, what the article actually needs is some published source saying this. ;) Esn (talk) 06:50, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ah. Well, the article has a somewhat chequered history, involving amongst other things a copyvio problem, recently removed. I would suggest in future you be a little bolder and change the main text, rather than concealing your correction in a footnote, where it may be mistaken for a supporting citation. (Few readers, I think, ever bother to look at footnotes.)—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:58, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

One of the many deficiencies of this article is that it does not mention how many finger holes are normal for the cornett (six), and whether or not it has a thumb hole in addition (it does). Considering the shortage of citations, it would be best to add this information only when a reliable source can be included. For such a simple thing, this should not be difficult.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:58, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have rectified this problem, at the same time adding a description of the construction of the ordinary treble cornett (with a verifying source, of course).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:26, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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History

Previous content of the History section was removed in 2015 as COPYVIO from New Grove; it could be rewritten from that source, or from the page history. – Fayenatic London 20:09, 25 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Jacqke - a really good source for this article's history section would be anything by Sabine Klaus at North Dakota; specifically the books in the "Trumpets and Other High Brass" series, from the National Music Museum in South Dakota.^[1] But at €130 each for five volumes, it's a bit rich for my blood, and no local libraries have it.—Jon (talk) 04:27, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I really appreciate your letting me know about the Sabine Klaus ref. I will pursue it. Please let me know if you have any ideas for content. Best wishes, Jacqke (talk) 04:45, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Jacqke actually it's volume 2 you'd need to get a hold of,^[2] which covers the cornetts, serpent, etc. — Jon (talk) 06:49, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For bass cornetts, check out Craig Kridel's article in the ITEA Journal, "Resurrecting the Bass Cornetto", and in fact anything by him, mostly available on his berliozhistoricalbrass.org website.^[3] — Jon (talk) 03:52, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Klaus, Sabine (2012). Instruments of the Single Harmonic Series. Trumpets and Other High Brass. Vol. 1. Vermillion: National Music Museum. ISBN 978-0-98482-691-9. OCLC 929566883. Wikidata Q116440602.
^ Klaus, Sabine (2013). Ways to Expand the Harmonic Series. Trumpets and Other High Brass. Vol. 2. Vermillion: National Music Museum. ISBN 978-0-984-82692-6. Wikidata Q116447957.
^ Kridel, Craig (2010). "Resurrecting the Bass Cornetto" (PDF). ITEA Journal. 38 (1). International Tuba and Euphonium Association: 86–8. Retrieved 27 January 2023.

What is the purpose of curving the cornetto's body?

What if any purpose, does curving the instrument serve? Curving the instrument would seem to make construction more difficult. Is there some acoustic advantage, or simply to reflect the animal-horn origins of the cornetto? Tfeledy (talk) 23:31, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I never really have found this addressed in any literature, except to point out that for the really large instruments, it made it possible to reach the soundholes. That would be interesting to add, if anyone finds it. Jacqke (talk) 01:00, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, reaching sound-holes occurred to me. But even the short cornettos are curved, while others of the same length are straight, with sound-holes distances apparently the same and thus equally within reach. It leads me to believe there must be some other reason. Tfeledy (talk) 07:15, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Construction?

How did they manage to hollow out the (more) curved ones? Or are they constructed in a different way, e.g. from two parallel pieces? How were & are they made?

[Klaus-trumpets-vol1-1] Klaus, Sabine (2012). Instruments of the Single Harmonic Series. Trumpets and Other High Brass. Vol. 1. Vermillion: National Music Museum. ISBN 978-0-98482-691-9. OCLC 929566883. Wikidata Q116440602.

[Klaus-trumpets-vol2-2] Klaus, Sabine (2013). Ways to Expand the Harmonic Series. Trumpets and Other High Brass. Vol. 2. Vermillion: National Music Museum. ISBN 978-0-984-82692-6. Wikidata Q116447957.

[ITEA-bass-cornetto-3] Kridel, Craig (2010). "Resurrecting the Bass Cornetto" (PDF). ITEA Journal. 38 (1). International Tuba and Euphonium Association: 86–8. Retrieved 27 January 2023.

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