Talk:Cornet/Archive 1

Archive 1

Image

I don't think we need that thing about public domain below the image. That should be saved for the image's page. Samuel 18:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Article improvements

I've done some work on this page but I think it needs more sorting out.

The bit about where it's used shouldn't be right at the top. It was a bit US-centric (concert bands) but in trying to add more I've made it top heavy. And we haven't yet talked about the cornet->tpt shift in jazz (though I seem to recall Louis Armstrong does).

I took out the apparently sexist "he" and "his" bits though I don't know if this is maybe policy and I don't want to start a huge flame war about "they" as a singular! I changed some of the wording (BUTTONS??? - never never never say this!) and took out some of the references to changing the pitch by shortening the instrument - to do this you need a hacksaw: really, it operates by lengthening it. And sure, when you let a valve up it gets shorter again, but it had to get longer in the first place and I found the previous way of expressing this very confusing. I hope this has not annoyed or upset the other authors.

It also needs a bit more on the origins, repertoire, cornets in bands and orchs, Sax, Distin et al, and there is not yet a brass band article, which surprises me.

Finally (for now) I think we really need a general good article on brass instruments and how they work, and valves and slides, and then do less in the individual articles and more referring on to that. Or does it already exist??

Nevilley 16:23 Dec 7, 2002 (UTC)

Closely related to the trumpet? Hmmm ...

The cornet is a brass instrument closely related to the trumpet.

Well you could argue that one for a year or two really, couldn't you? I mean, it's not a bad start for the article in a way because it tells the naive reader roughly what they are looking at in the first place; but for the reader wanting a bit more depth it's a bit misleading - I was always taught that it's NOT really all that closely related - it's a bit of an accident of birth that you have trumpetlike instruments coming down one evolutionary line and hornlike ones down another, and for all sorts of musical and commercial reasons you end up with these two things in Bb, valves, same fingerings etc - but really they aren't close relatives like, say, the trumpet and trombone, or flugelhorn and tenor horn (aka alto horn) but rather more distant cousins. I can't think of a wording I prefer right now, which is one reason I haven't yet Been Bold In Editing or whatever the mantra is. But I would be interested to know what others think. Nevilley 16:29, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I tend to agree with you, but as you say, it's tricky, because the opening sentence as it stands gives a good rough and ready impression of what we're talking about. Perhaps saying it "resembles" the trumpet rather than saying it is "related to" it would be better. Maybe we could also mention the conical bore in the first sentence, since that's the main difference between the two (isn't it?). That should be useful, clear and accurate. I think... --Camembert

Interestingly, the trumpet is related to the baritone and tenor sax evolving from saxhorns. --Sketchee 06:13, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

What? No, it isn't. 82.45.248.177 23:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely it isn't, I believe Sketchee is referring to the Flugelhorn, completely different in terms of nomenclature. Mickthefish 20:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Split?

Anyone know why there is a split tag at the top of this page? Logank 14:09, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Because of the Other meanings section ! Lvr 11:26, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Brass bands

Cornets in brass band (from article): "1 E flat Soprano Cornet, 4 Solo Cornets, 1 Repiano Cornet...."

Citation needed. 1 solo and 4 ripieno cornets would be more believable... Just plain Bill

The article is correct. For a citation look up a few brass bands and see the players listed by instrument (See Maidenhead Citadel Band#The Band for example). The "solo" part is usually div. 2 or 4. I suppose the "solo" part has a different connotation in the brass bands.--Dbolton (talk) 05:46, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, did the looking I should have done earlier, & see it is so... is it common to have only one repiano player, and what distinguishes a repiano part from something written for the 2nd and 3rd cornets? (In an orchestral context, ripieno basically refers to section players as compared to virtuosic soloists.) Here's an opportunity for some knowledgeable editor add to the article. __Just plain Bill (talk) 14:56, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The repiano cornet is a different instrument. I don't know much about it. --Dbolton (talk) 01:15, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Just did some more looking, and found this article on how to write for brass bands. There it looks like the repiano part is played on a regular B flat cornet, by a strong player: "The rep part is a highly prized position among cornet players, including as it does melody, counter-melody, solo, harmony and accompaniment. As such it is possibly the most varied, interesting and challenging parts of a brass band: truly a dark-horse part."

Cool! I had no idea such a thing existed. __Just plain Bill (talk) 01:52, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Flat sign in the lead

I'm OK with using the word "flat" instead of the "proper character" in the lead. The B-flatness of a cornet is pretty central to its nature, and it would be a shame for some innocent reader to see a confusing rectangle there. (For eight hours of most days, the computer most easily accessible to me doesn't have musical fonts installed, and I have no intention of installing them on a machine tended by someone else. It also has an 800x600px screen, but that's another story.) I'll go looking on my own, but I'd appreciate a pointer, if you have one handy, to a central discussion point for this issue. __Just plain Bill (talk) 14:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Whoops, found it in the manual of style, where it says it's OK to use the words "flat" or "sharp" but not b or #. __Just plain Bill (talk) 14:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I think there are three issues here - 1. consistency within an article, 2. not arbitrarily changing from one valid form to another, 3. the less-than-perfect functionality of the version used in this article. Someone changed it based on #3, I reverted based on #1 and #2. I would advocate replacing the current template with the more functional one shown in the manual of style (per your link above). Of course, the word "flat" is acceptable - I just think it's a little clunky. - Special-T (talk) 15:48, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Couple of days before I can check things out on that display-challenged machine again -- tnx for prompt response __Just plain Bill (talk) 15:59, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The template was designed to accept the word "flat", the letter "b", or the Unicode "♭" and produce identical output. The only advantage of using {{music|flat}} over {{music|♭}} is proper display for IE users when editing a page. I am not aware of any display issues in the article when the music template is used. If there are issues, specific details about the machine such as operating system, browser version, a list of fonts if possible, would be very helpful. --Dbolton (talk) 04:48, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah! I thought the display output was different. Feel free to revert or correct my edits. - Special-T (talk) 12:42, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'm on a computer that can't display Chinese or Japanese or Russian, but it has no trouble with flat and sharp signs used here. Willi Gers07 (talk) 17:39, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Orchestral music

I think a subsection dedicated to its use in orchestral music (I think especially prominent in 19th/early 20th century France) should be added to the "Ensembles" section. I am not an expert, but from memory I recall: Gluck's "Orphée" in the Berlioz version ("Soprano, Alto, Tenor, and Bass") and Debussy's "La Mer" (two cornets in C alongside three trumpets in F). -- megA (talk) 10:44, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Cornet / Valved horn

When the valved horn was beginning to come into serious use, composers wrote Cornet a pistone to distinguish it from the natural horn, not to specify the use of a cornet, I'm guessing- or does Cornet a pistone mean Cornet? I'm actually rather lost there. :) Schissel | Sound the Note! 20:33, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Jean Aste

Should the date for him at the beginning of the History section be 1828 instead of 1928? --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 20:16, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

C cornet?

Does the C cornet deserve mention, since C cornets are used by a considerable number of major orchestral players? As 2 examples, the NY MET section seems to use them nearly as often as trumpets, and Phil Smith uses a C cornet for several purposes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.74.236.254 (talk) 03:19, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Feel free to improve the article, but please make sure you have a source to cite. --dbolton (talk) 01:19, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Notable players

In keeping with many other articles, notable players should have articles about them here in Wikipedia before adding them to this article's list. Rklawton (talk) 02:56, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Relationship to trumpet

In the section Relationship to trumpet there are three sentences

Also available, but usually seen only in the brass band, is an E♭ soprano model, pitched a fourth above the standard B♭. There is usually only one E♭ cornet in a band, adding an extreme high register to the brass band sound. It can be effective in cutting through even the loudest tutti climax.

which don't seem to concern the relationship at all. Have they been misplaced from another section, possibly History or one of the subsections of Ensembles with cornets? --Redrose64 (talk) 20:36, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Yessss ... and actually, even in its present form, all these years later, it is still not quite right as the E-flat ref is still there, albeit without the other stuff, and still leads nowhere much. Given the timing of this conversation, and my indubitable dedication to perfecting this article, I am sure that Redrose64 will be thrilled to hear that I fully intend to get back here at the latest by about 8 pm on 14 January 2027 to make sure it all makes sense – in the fervent hope that someone else got there first. Cheers DBaK (talk) 18:58, 4 October 2019 (UTC)