Talk:Cork City FORAS Co-op

Kits

Are kits that contain sponsors allowed to be uploaded onto Wikipedia? Images of the permenant kits are on the website, but I'm not sure if they're allowed on here, due to the sponsors. - Paz-CCFC 18:59 8th of April, 2010

The issue isn't so much the sponsors, but the question of ownership/copyright on the images themselves. Best to use the available kit templates to "build" the infobox kit. If it's free/own-work, then there is no issue.Guliolopez (talk) 18:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Away kit

Someone recently added the "away kit" colours. I had been holding off on adding it because, as far as I know, the team (senior team at least) has not yet actually played in this strip. What do others think? Is it premature to reference the red strip as the "away strip" - before it's actually been worn as such? Guliolopez (talk) 17:30, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi Guliolopez, I added the away kit. City have yet to wear it, but it went on sale just last Friday-and will be our away kit for the season. Due to the lack of other teams playing in green in the league of Ireland-we often rarely see our away kit! It only tends to make an appearance in the Carlise Grounds. It is definitely our away kit though-if you'd like I can get a Board of Management to contact you to confirm this? --Joseph McSweeney (talk) 10:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Name

A few anons have made naming/label changes to this article. To preempt any repeat changes, I want to highlight something: Owning rights to a trademark/brand name/company name is not the same as operating under that name. While the club owns the rights to the name "Cork City Football Club", it is not yet playing/operating under that name. As was the case with Limerick 37, it may be some time before it plays/operates under the name. Club press release was clear that club will continue to play under current name for now. Until then, this article should remain titled and labelled as is. Guliolopez (talk) 15:09, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Under FAI rules, the name must remain as 'Cork City FORAS Co-op' until the end of the season. Then it can be changed to 'Cork City Football Club', which it most certainly will. Also, what are the logistics re merging this page with the other Cork City FC? Presumably, it wouldn't have to wait for next season, when the clubs trading name is changed back, but if/when the FAI "award" the history/the club claim it, unchallengedly? Also, presumably referring to the club simply as 'Cork City FC', rather than writing it out in its entirity, is now alright? Paz-CCFC (talk) 16:44, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Two questions there I think:

1. I think we wait and see what happens (RE: FAI/history/honours/etc) before merging with the "existing" article. If the "continuity" is confirmed, we can deal with both under the same article (as per the Limerick F.C. article). Let's deal with that if/when it comes to it however. If we have to (for a while) we can always move this article to "Cork City Football Club" and move the existing to "Cork City Football Club (1984-2010)" or similar.
2. Agreed on the "Cork City FC" question. While we probably shouldn't move the article yet, assuming there are no DAB issues, should probably be OK to use the term "Cork City FC" in the body of the article. Seems to be the way the club and COMMONNAME are going.

Just my opinion though of course. Guliolopez (talk) 17:56, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'd imagine that the FAI will "award" (I use that term loosely) the history and merits of the previous Cork City FC, to this one (similar to Waterford FC/Waterford United) before the end of the season. So, I don't really think we'd have much to worry about making a seperate "CCFC 1984-2010", as that club and this one will officially be recognised as the same, before the actual name changes.

As you said, though, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. There's no rush. Paz-CCFC (talk) 19:53, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

To be honest Paz, it might be worth leaving the Cork City FORAS Co-Op page separate entirely and just begin editing the CCFC page from next season onwards with a note about this season and this page! Joseph McSweeney 16:43, 12 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joseph McSweeney (talk • contribs)

We are allowed to trade/operate as Cork City FC or Cork City Football Club, we're just not allowed to change the name we're competing under in the LoI until next season, which we will definitely be doing. The FAI know that we are the same club, they've said as much. But, most importantly, the fans know that we are the same club, we are Cork City Football Club. Wiki can change now. --Hsetne (talk) 20:40, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi. Can you provide a verifiable reference to support the assertion that the FAI recognises the continuity, and have "said as much"? Guliolopez (talk) 21:57, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a link to any newspaper article, I can't provide a link to word of mouth, our history was up on the club website recently I think it's being edited. It's up to the fans to claim the history, we all know we're Cork City Football Club. I haven't seen any cites/references for all the other clubs who have done this i.e. fans claiming the history. We are Cork City Football Club, the name has temporarily changed for one season, it's all on the original wiki page for the club. The fans are the club. --Hsetne (talk) 22:17, 11 September 2010 (UTC) If the history appears on the official City website, will that be enough to convince you?--Hsetne (talk) 22:50, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

OK - Maybe this is an issue with understanding of this projects guidelines, but "word of mouth" is not a verifiable source, and is therefore not what we go on here. I'd recommend reading one of the basic tenets of this project (relating to verifiability) before editing further. As regards the "history section of the club website" - unfortunately the club website has "copied and pasted" content directly from Wikipedia - without attribution. That in itself is problematic under the project's licensing terms (and I shall contact the website owners separately about that). While it is interesting to note that (despite the plagiarism) the club site has drawn the link back to 1984, the fact remains that it is simply not correct to state that "Cork City Football Club are currently playing in the LOI". Which leads me back to the basic point: Until the club are playing under the name, it's probably premature to make the broad merge changes. We can and should probably look at improving the link between the two articles - but what you have done now is to effectively create a content fork. (Which is - again - a no no). To close: If you have ideas on how to address the significant overlap between the two articles, then it would be great to hear them - so we can figure out how to address. But unilaterally engaging in content forking and introducing factually incorrect statements is not the way to go. Guliolopez (talk) 22:51, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

What factually incorrect statements did I introduce? You can correctly say Cork City Football Club are currently playing in the LoI under the temporary name Cork City FORAS Co-op. Looking at it from that angle addresses the overlap. I don't see any point in further editing the Cork City FORAS Co-op article, it should be scrapped in the near future. Scrapping it gets rid of the content fork The history on the club website isn't yet accessible unless you have the link (you can't click onto from the website) so I don't think there's a big issue yet, I'm sure it'll be changed if it needs to be. If the material on the club website is original will it meet wiki's verifiability requirements and can we fix wiki? --Hsetne (talk) 23:10, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

To address the open points individually:

1. In terms of meeting "wiki's verifiability requirements", it would be much better if any references provided were from a reliable third-party or FAI source. And support the assertion that the FAI recognise the "transfer" of honours/etc. (Without this, it is far from ideal to have an article which ascribes the history/honours/etc to the current club).
2. On the "factually incorrect" question, the opening para now reads: "Cork City Football Club is an Irish football team that plays in the League of Ireland". This isn't strictly true is it? "Cork City Football Club" isn't a team that currently plays in the LOI. There is a club which owns the rights to the name playing in the LOI. But that's a different thing. (This is one of the fundamental issues we need to address before "merging" the articles).
3. As to the suggestion that the FORAS article "should be scrapped in the near future". This may well be true. And in fact it was agreed that it should be scrapped in the near future. But it is not the future yet. And the above issues need to be addressed before we'll reach the point of completing the merge/move/deletion/etc.

In essence, while I don't disagree that this is a complex situation, and the current article structure probably isn't ideal, it DOES currently represent the facts as they stand today. Happy to hear ideas for improvement - but what we have now is a messy "half way" setup. Guliolopez (talk) 00:09, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

It's doesn't have to be a complicated situation.

1. Just look at the club, we are Cork City Football Club, we can use the name and all the old crests, we have the same fans, and to a large extent we have the same players and backroom staff. Effectively it's just a change of ownership of the club, holding companies of LoI clubs have changed lots of times down through the years, this time however we needed to change the name temporarily. Derry City haven't had to get some sort of stamp of approval from the FAI to claim their history on here, they're still using the same wiki, and their situation is very similar to ours only they didn't have to temporarily change the name.
2. I've changed the opening paragraph "Cork City Football Club is an Irish football team that plays in the League of Ireland" to "Cork City Football Club (Irish: Cumann Peile Cathrach Chorcaí) is an Irish football team that plays in the League of Ireland under the temporary name Cork City FORAS Co-op." to deal with that fundamental issue, I think that's a fair reflection of the situation.

I think this deals with the two issues above. --Hsetne (talk) 06:03, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

This is all way too complicated. A wiki is not a legal document. If it looks and sounds like Cork City call it that. Add a temporary note about this season. Why are wiki writers so pedantic? JR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.109.148.26 (talk) 19:38, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

It's not about being pedantic, it's about getting facts right. The FAI has never ever awarded any club honours that were one by another club. And this line is incorrect: It has been confirmed by the Board of Management of FORAS, that the club will return to the name Cork City Football Club for the 2011 season Cork City FORAS Co-op is a new club and has never played under any other name. Can we please stick to the facts and not fantasies that people can not back up with any evidence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.198.151.37 (talk) 01:53, 27 October 2010 (UTC)