Talk:Copts/Archive 3

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Untitled and Misc.

Somebody changed the latest Census date to 2005. I belive that CAPMAS (the egyptian census taking agency) runs decenial censuses and that the next one is scheduled for 2006 with results most likely not available until 2007. Numbers dated 2005 are therefore estimates and should be quoted as such. Feel free to correct me if am wrong on that.

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Will someone please revert this page to before (10:50, 29 Jan 2005 Afanous) User_talk:Afanous#Coptic_et_al. --Alif 11:57, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

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I strongly disagree with the passage claiming the rejection of the usage of term 'Copt' by nationalist Muslim Egyptians to signify themselves, and suggesting the exclusive use by Christian Egyptians. As such, I edited it. Nefertum17, what is your idea about the etymology of modern Egyptian Arabic koftes?

Also, I'm not an Egyptlogist, but when I read ḥwt-k3-ptḥ, knowing that ka means spirit and taking the layman's liberty of identifying ḥwt with Arabic حط ḥṭ or محط mḥṭ, meaning place of landing [of bird] or laying [something] or camping/stopping [of caravan], I find it should be translated as "Place of the Spirit of Ptaḥ" as suggested here (section IV). --Alif 22:42, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A Nation?

Might it be more apt and helpful to describe groups like the Copts and the Ulster-Scots as national, ethnic, sub-cultural, communal or sectarian groups within their respective societies? Which is more precise and neutral? //Big Adamsky 19:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Somebody changed the latest Census date to 2005. I belive that CAPMAS (the egyptian census taking agency) runs decenial censuses and that the next one is scheduled for 2006 with results most likely not available until 2007. Numbers dated 2005 are therefore estimates and should be quoted as such. Feel free to correct me if am wrong on that.

Not Arab

Coptcs ARE NOT Arab .. It is quite evident that the Copts are not Arab. Firstly, they did not accept the Arabization of their people. Secondly, they were not too keen on intermarriage with the Arabs. Also I would like to say that there are many countries that have lost their old identities because of the Arabs (such as Yemen). Another example of this would be the Yemenite Jews who faced so much persecution from the Arabs they had to leave their home land. The same goes for Jews and christians in North Africa.

Cluckbang 20:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)Cluckbang

• User:Cluckbang, 1. Could you tell us please, how did you know that the Copts "were not too keen on intermarriage with the Arabs"? 2. User:Egyegy has already said that "Egyptians, Copts or Muslims, don't have Arabic origins but many consider themselves Arab because of the language they all speak." So, first, how could you then say that the Copts "did not accept the Arabization of their people" if all Copts today, speak what's known as the Arabic Language?! Second, what makes you believe that the Muslim-Egyptians are Arabized then; couldn't they have changed their religion only without changing the properties of their bodies and physiology as well (or is Muslim a synonymous with Arab?) Again, how do you know that Muslim-Egyptians ethnically belong to the Arab race?! It will indeed be interesting to know the answer of all these questions. Thank you, __Maysara 06:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Copts are not Arabs, they even say they are not Arabs .. Well Maysara, firstly, the Copts did not want to marry people who were oppressing them, just because they didn't want to change their religion. I dont think you know that one of the MAIN reasons why the Copts exist today is because of the Abyssinians empire? Many centuries ago, when the Arabs tried to wipe out the Copts, the emperor of Abyssinia warned the Arabs that if they attempted to do this atrocity, he would block the Nile from Lake Tana to Egypt. Let me also tell you this, Arabic is one of the languages spoken by somalians, so are they arab? Obviously not. The Copts have their own language, but since they are minorities, (10%), what other choice do they have to fit in?. Arabic is the official language in Egypt. Listen, the Copts say that they are not Arab. Respect their opinion. Just for the sake of it, lets say they were arab. But they dont want to be arab anymore! I hope I gave you an interesting answer. Maysara. By the way Maysara, please respond on my talkpage Cluckbang 20:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)Cluckbang

1. Please provide academic or any published material supporting your arguments; Wikipedia is no place for personal openions and speculations, it is an encyclopedia where every statement aught be verified or verifiable.

2. Copts may or maynot be Arab, but this applied to Muslim-Egyptians as well.

3. There is no such thing as "Listen, the Copts say that they are not Arab. Respect their opinion." I respect only verifiable information. YOU don't know that all Copts believe so. ALL your openions so far are unverifiable. Please stop arguing and try to provide useful material for the encyclopedia.

4. Please stop replying by starting a new title or header, just write your reply below the writings and replies of others. You certainly gave me an horribly boring answer; and I have absolutely no reason in replying in your talk-page. Discussions should continue in the article's talk-page, not yours.

5. Please try to know more about some Wikipedia basics before attempting to plunge so deeply in the solid! These pages might be helpful: Wikipedia:About, Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and don't stop looking for further information about Wikipedia after these, really, I beg you read these and more! __Maysara 21:56, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, please give me a definition of what an Arab is. Also, what language do the Egyptian priests have their church services in? Do you know why they didnt choose Arabic? If they wanted to be Arabs, they would have chosen Arabic. This question doesnt require sources but rather logic and common sense Maysara. Also if you read the arab christian article it says "Few Coptic Egyptians identify themselves as "Arabs", most merely as "Arabic speakers". They have their own language (which died out as a vernacular some 300 years ago) and have their own rites of Orthodox Christianity." and also "Many do not consider themselves Arabs" Cluckbang 20:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)Cluckbang

"please give me a definition of what an Arab is"

There are ethnic Arabs, those of Arabia, and there are cultural Arabs, those speaking Arabic language. This later concept sometimes overlaps with other identity vectors due to the fact the Arabic language and Islamar have historically expanded hand in hand. A person whose ancestors spoke Aramaic, Amazigh, or a sister language of Arabic in Yemen is an considered now to be an Arab culturally. Especially that these native ancient languages are now *mostly* extinct. Do you dispute the fact that the native language of %100 of Egyptian Christians today is Arabic (again, I'm not mentioning the extreme examples of families ideological emigrants in EU and US)

"Do you know why they didnt choose Arabic? If they wanted to be Arabs, they would have chosen Arabic."

What kind of logic is this! Will you please rephrase what you meant to say.

The often repeated argument of "nation X speak Arabic as one of their languages. Does that make them Arab!" serves no purpose. No one is trying to force the Arabic Pennensulaic identity on Copts. It is the otherway round. It is the intent of some Egyptian Christians in here to exclude non-Christian Egyptians from the Coptic identity and to force a religious dimention to it instead of the national identifier which it is.

Can you please tell me what do you call a person who once was Coptic Orthodox and stopped being so, or comes of a family who is so but he himself is no longer so?

What do you call an Egyptian person who was not born in an Egyptian Christian family but then converted in Coptic Christianity?

Or are you going to do like the Egyptian government and say that there is not such a thing happening? :)

If Coptic means Egyptian & Christian instead of Egyptian, what does "Coptic Christian" mean?

With all respect, I have to say that what I'm witnessing here is indeed emotional and not much different from the claims of Islamists, and in my opinion is a reaction induced by that pressure.

I have elaborated my thoughts and arguments more on this subject there [1], which has insightful opinions by others too.

--Alif 20:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

The Copts are not of a different ethnicity

Changing the religion of a person does not mean that his ethnicity changed. When the Egyptians embraced Islam, their ethnicity didn't change. Egypt is a very special country. For thousands of years there was no significant emigrations from or into Egypt. Please note that the population of Egypt at the end of the pharaonic age was estimated to be 10 millions (currently 79 million, in 1956 18 million). However, the population of the Arab peninsula as a whole is less than this. So, it is not possible that intermarriages between Egyptians and Arabs could have changed the Egyptian ethnicity. The above link in this page to the CIA world fact book clarifies the matter.

--Meno25 10:53, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Identity as Native Egyptians

I have re-updated that section I initially added to reflect that it is not conclusive as to the origin of the Copts. The claim that most Egyptians decend from the original native inhabitants is correct; my update reflects this, but that certain communities tend to reflect more closely the indigenous inhabitants, which doesn't include the Copts. I've done research providing a citation of at least one Egyptologist who shows that the Copts are descended from Greeks who immigrated to Egypt during the early 4th Century[2]. If you want the article to be Neutral POV, please do not completely cut the section as it expresses the fact that an indigeous idenitity of Copts is completely inconclusive. 207.67.146.182 22:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• Moustafa Gadalla is not a professional Egyptologist– a Bachelor of Science degree in civil engineering ordinarily does not qualify one for that position. Have his writings ever even been addressed by mainstream Egyptologists?--Pharos 10:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Substantiation?

I am incredulous as to the idea that 'E-gyptus' is derived from a series of vaguely similar sounding ancient Egyptian words. I have spent many years living and working in Egypt, and I have never heard this explanation of the derivation of Copt. Perhaps some more sources could be provided illustrating proof of this somewhat tenuous connection...?

On modern use and nationalists

Zerida, I don't see how removing the paragraph about modern use and nationalists, both of which are true, will stop the edit wars while it will make it unbalanced!

The line about nationalists sayd: "Some Egyptian nationalists use Copt in a its original generic sense to signify any native of Egypt."

and the section about modern use says: "In modern usage, the word "Copt" has become synonymous with the Christians of Egypt. Some Egyptian Christians claim exclusive, direct ancestry from the Egyptians of Pharaonic times, while claiming that Muslim Egyptians are descended from the Ottomans and from invaders from the Arabian Peninsula. These claims are non-factual."

This statement and that section were there since the major rewriting of the article last year and were removed recently by an anonyonous who didn't explain why they are not valid. --Alif 03:52, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I agree with the person who edited this part out. Don't know why I didn't think of that before, but this section has been one of the most edited parts (back-and-forth). It's written in acrimonious language that invites polemical edits. What does it matter that some reactionaries claim this or that? Why invite this sort of argument if the article doesn't warrant it? I do find the article balanced without it--it describes members of the Coptic Church and explains the word's etymology. At any rate, I won't just delete it but will try rewrite it to make it more neutral — Zerida 08:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Edited and expanded section — Zerida 11:25, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I find the subject section in its current form to be superior to the previous. However I don't agree with you that this article is about members of the Coptic Church as there is another article covering that: Coptic Christianity. Instead, this article is about the word 'Coptic' itself and the natinality, not the faith. The political implications and existing, though unfounded, calims of racial purity are closely associated with it. --Alif 17:58, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I think that this paragraph should be put in the article but be well written.

--Meno25 02:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Reference needed

As a translator of the article to Norwegian (for Norwegian Wikipedia) I really need a reference to the person "Morcus Semika Pasha" and the "Coptic Museum", which can not be verified by using Goodle. Finn Bjo

I just realized there are so many spelling variations of the name in English. However, under external links you will find the web site of the Coptic Museum listed. Semika Pasha is mentioned here specifically [3]. I think the name should reflect the most commonly used spelling. I'll change it once I find out what that is. — Zerida 04:55, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Anywhere I can dialogue with Copts?

I'm an American Catholic and I'm just learning about Coptic Christianity (I thought it was pretty much a dead religion and didn't know there was any real Christian population in Egypt) and I'd like to find a Copt message board for discussion. I've found several but they're all in Arabic, so I was wondering if there are any English Copt boards for American Copts or whatnot. Roland Deschain 00:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

• Hello Roland;

There are many Coptic forums online. One of the most active is www.freecopts.net/forum It is mainly in Arabic but has sections in English, French, Italian and German

Arab Egyptians performing Genocide on copts

there should be something about all the oppression and bad treatment that the government is doing to the copts. Arabs have conquered Egypt and are oppressing the copts in a similar way like they're oppressing all the other peoples of the middle east (like maroones in lebanon and jews in Israel).

Do you have any sources to back this up? Otherwise, it won't be allowed in.--Kross^Talk 10:26, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Human rights

The article is still lacking in information on Coptic human rights. I've included a brief on the topic at Egypt, but I think it should be elaborated here. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · ☥ 10:25, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Photo and infobox

salamaleikum Zerida, how are you? That photo of 19C Copt girl was purchased on ebay. Its a very old post card depicting medival copt. All the best. Ldingley 15:45, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The article might not need this type of infobox because it's already covered at Egyptians, but I saw that the article on Sikhs have one, so it's probably helpful to have one here. The collage though should be replaced with one of more prominent Copts. Marianos of Faras was more likely a Byzantine monk, not Coptic. The postcard of the girl is obscure and still needs a reliable citation. There is no shortage of Coptic iconography on Wikipedia, so it should feature at least one. Coptic icons figure strongly in the culture. And what about Pope Shenouda? Instead of restoring the tags, maybe I could replace it with the photo of the priests in the meantime. Also, the languages should be in the order they are used. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · ☥ 19:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Good job Zerida! :) Cheers. Ldingley 15:39, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

p.s Zerida, Bishop Marianus of Faras was not a Byzanian Bishop. He was Copt, however, he did had many contact with the Byzantine counrt and the church. Best Regards. Ldingley 18:33, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Excellent, then it shouldn't be difficult to cite that information. You're welcome to replace the picture of the priests with the collage again, but the tags will need to say for both Marianos and the postcard until reliable citations are provided. Thanks. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · ☥ 03:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I replaced the images. All the photos on that image are of copts. Ldingley 17:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Etymology

Concerning the sentence:

"The English word Copt is from New Latin Coptus, which is derived from Arabic qubṭi قبطي (pl: qubṭ قبط and aqbāṭ أقباط), an Arabisation of the Coptic word kubti (Bohairic) and/or kuptaion (Sahidic)."

It and the next sentence suggests that kubti (Bohairic) derived form the Greek. Shouldn't it be that the Arabic qubṭi was derived from the Greek and subsequently this Arabised word (kubti) was written/used in Bohairic Coptic? A similar argument could posed with regard to the Sahidic kuptaion - with the beginning ai being dropped through influence from the Arabic.