Talk:Coordination Council (Belarus)

Title

@Cordyceps-Zombie: The present name is invalid because the capitalisation implies a formal name, for which sources are missing. So far the closest that the sources seem to get to a formal name seems to be "Coordination Council". Possible options seem to me to include:

• Coordination Council (Belarus) - this assumes that we accept that there are enough sources for this to be the formal English name;
• Belarusian coordination council - lower case, because it's a descriptive WP:TITLE, not a formal name.

If there are no other preferences, I would go for Coordination Council (Belarus). Boud (talk) 17:21, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

I have no objections to that. Coordination Council (Belarus) seems fine to me. Cordyceps-Zombie (talk) 17:24, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Propose deletion of subsection irrelevant to this article

@Cordyceps-Zombie: or anyone else: Are there any objections to deleting the subsection Countries and organisations that have not accepted the results of the presidential election? Although this is vaguely related to the topic, it doesn't make much sense in this article. Refusing the results of the election is not the same thing as supporting a transitional council. Boud (talk) 19:07, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Possible wikipedia-notable members

Someone who can read Russian might be able to check if either of these may match:

• ru:Егоров, Андрей has multiple people of the same name and likely to be alive today - the Belapan list says Андрей Егоров — политолог, директор Центра европейской трансформации;
• ru:Козлов, Николай - mostly historical people, but maybe ru:Козлов,_Николай_Михайлович_(художник)? - the Belapan list says доверенное лицо Светланы Тихоновской.

Boud (talk) 02:15, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Hey! @Boud: first person is ru:Егоров, Андрей Геннадьевич according to https://rada.vision/chleny-soveta (same picture),
the second person is ru:Мікалай Георгіевіч Казлоў - page not existing (Kozlov is a leader of the United Civil Party of Belarus [1] and be:Аб’яднаная грамадзянская партыя ) Natanieluz (talk) 18:22, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi @Natanieluz:  Done Boud (talk) 23:14, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Language

With all due respect to the Belarusian language, I'd put the Russian title first since the CC main logo, its official site (main page), Facebook page, etc. are all in Russian. The Russian language is predominantly used by the opposition (as well as by the Belarusian society), let's accept this fact. Buxareu (talk) 21:23, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Agreed that this is consistent with the sources. Boud (talk) 22:55, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Lukashenko's rants

I wonder if we should quote everything Lukashescu says. The old dictator is obviously suffering from progressive dementia and is losing contact with the reality. All dictators do before they die their own death or are executed. Taurus Littrow (talk) 18:30, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

We don't quote everything that he says. But he's not completely losing contact with reality; he's using his best remaining sociopolitical assets to try to retain power. He has imported Russian propaganda specialists to replace strikers and keep the TV propaganda running; he has effectively blocked a loyal-turned-rebel newspaper from printing hard copies for those who still read printed newspapers; and he's still sending riot cop vans into Minsk city centre. Lukashenko hasn't yet lost support from all the "mid-level decision makers in Belarus".

In any case, the Wikipedia question is whether his statements are notable; whether or not he's doing the most rational thing possible for a dictator in his situation or whether he's losing his mind is not Wikipedia's problem. At the moment, I think that having a few of his main statements in relation to the Council is clearly justified based on notability. Boud (talk) 01:16, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I understand. I would trim his statements a bit, though, especially his accusation that some of the CC members are "outright Nazis". That's a clear calumny. Also, his promise to act in accordance with "the constitution and the law" is not quite trustworthy, to put it mildly. Does the Belarusian constitution or any law say that you can arrest thousands of peaceful protesters or simple passers-by and then beat and torture them in detention centers? Two international human rights organizations have already labelled these actions as crimes against humanity, and rightly so. Taurus Littrow (talk) 08:50, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Lukashenko's comments are notable and therefore should be reported here. We had to report similar comments made in 2011 by "Brotherly Leader and Guide of the Revolution of the Great Socialist Peoples Libyan Arab Jamaharia", Muammar Gaddafi, when he said that people who were protesting against him were "taking hallucinogenic pills in their Nescafe". Whatever your opinion of the comments, they were made and therefore have to be included. Cordyceps-Zombie (talk) 12:26, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

There's a full Wikipedia article on the veracity of statements by the Brotherly Leader and Guide of the Revolution of the Great White People's American Greatness Make Againia. Boud (talk) 19:22, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Made me smile that one did :-) Cordyceps-Zombie (talk) 19:36, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

We need one for the Potato Führer as well. The guy is a goldmine! Here's one of the most famous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MDLrCBEKto/ "Why eat potatoes with meat? Eat them with herring instead! Why do you eat meat with potatoes and then go to sleep? How will you sleep? How will you awake in the morning?" Taurus Littrow (talk) 15:17, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

You are probably not aware of the following joke of the latter days of Soviet Communism, when food was scarce. So they sent a propagandists to teach everybody a healthy diet: meat is not good for your helth because it has cholesterol, high-covalence proteines, dihydrogen monoxide, you get the idea. Of course people mostly skeptical, they have this bad habit to eat meat, you know, so they give a propagandist hard time. but in one village suddenly he got support from and old fart peasant: "That's right, listet what he says: you will get your feet cold if you eat much meat!" - So this propagandist jumps triumphanlty: "Listen, comrades, what even folk wisdom says: you get your feet cold off meat!" -- But after the lecture he grabs this old man: "Tell me grapms, why meat makes cold feet?" -- :You know, son, you eat much meat in the evening, in the night your dick gets stiff, pulls the blanket off, and you wake up in the morning with your feet freezing." Lembit Staan (talk) 05:13, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 5 November 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Heart ^(talk) 13:48, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

---

Coordination Council → Coordination Council of the Belarusian opposition – "Coordination Council" is a very wide term, used in the name of many organizations. See, for example, Russian Opposition Coordination Council, Coordination Council of Islamic Revolution Forces and more others. In my opinion, needs rename this page into Coordination Council of the Belarusian opposition or Coordination Council for the Transfer of Power.--Kaganer (talk) 15:32, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

And Coordination Council should be disambiguation page linked with the d:Q101205689. --Kaganer (talk) 15:35, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose as proposed. Support alternatives: either Coordination Council for the Transfer of Power, as used in the article lead, or Coordination Council (Belarus), which would be more concise and also redirects here already. BegbertBiggs (talk) 18:05, 12 November 2020 (UTC) — Edited my !vote for clarity (underlined). BegbertBiggs (talk) 18:27, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Coordination Council of the Belarusian opposition because it is excessively long. Support Coordination Council (Belarus) which has the commonly used term, is unambiguous, and is short. Oppose Coordination Council for the Transfer of Power because even the Council itself, writing in English, mostly doesn't use this full name, even if has been used a few times. Boud (talk) 22:51, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - a quick Google search shows that the Belarusian Coordination Council is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term "Coordination Council". Even searching "Russian Opposition Coordination Council" comes up with more results for the Belarusian one than the actual Russian one. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 04:20, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose at least for now the Belarusian one appears to be the primary topic. Support creation of Coordination Council (disambiguation). (t · c) buidhe 21:52, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Done. But the is not dab, it is WP:SIA page. I guess we will move it soon. Lembit Staan (talk) 05:35, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
  • No, Belarusian one is far form being primary topic. Lembit Staan (talk) 05:36, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - generic term. Use full meaningful name, which is reasonable short: Coordination Council for the Transfer of Power. Lembit Staan (talk) 04:57, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 28 November 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Technical move requested. (non-admin closure) Vpab15 (talk) 16:04, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

---

• Coordination Council → Coordination Council (Belarus)
• Coordination Council (disambiguation) → Coordination Council

– In the previous discussion this proposal was mentioned by several !voters. Lembit Staan (talk) 20:15, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

• support as the nom, although in the prev vote I had a different opinion. Lembit Staan (talk) 20:15, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
• Note @Lembit Staan: I have added Coordination Council (disambiguation) → Coordination Council to the proposal. BegbertBiggs (talk) 00:09, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
• support Concise and reasonable. Boud (talk) 22:06, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
• Support. No clear primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:13, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose — Of the eight articles that have "Coordination Council" in their title, the Belarusian Coordination Council is the clear primary topic by pageviews. Levivich ^harass/_hound 07:05, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

• That's only the very recent statistics. Popularity by en.Wikipedia pageviews over the last 720 days gives Russian Opposition Coordination Council with some quite big bursts of popularity. Make sure you tick the "logarithmic" box. Over the last week the Belarus version has only been about a factor of two more popular than the Russian one. (This is quite impressive given that the Russian one was, according to the current content, dissolved in 2013.)

Also, there are all sorts of governmental or advisory type groups called Something Council around the world. In terms of the naturalness criterion, many people are going to remember Something Council from Belarus, without being quite sure if it's called Consultative or Coordination or Popular or Participatory or People's or Democratic. Boud (talk) 08:16, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Belarusian Coordination Council wasn't the primary topic before 2020 because it was founded in 2020. But now, since its founding, it has become the primary topic. We can make Something Council from Belarus a redirect. Levivich ^harass/_hound 08:25, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

You cannot usurp a generic term for a single example of its usage. We do not use title General Secretary for General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, and so on. Lembit Staan (talk) 17:20, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

There are cases of generic words taking on a particular meaning and of brand names becoming genericised. But this is a recent case, and the worldwide usage in English is not so overwhelming that "Coordination Council" immediately signifies "Belarusian opposition". Boud (talk) 19:23, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, google search does not overwhelmingly identify "CC" with "BO". Lembit Staan (talk) 23:20, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

But our readers do. Levivich ^harass/_hound 08:04, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Core membership as of 13 February 2021

@Pingswan: you can count the core membership with a command line such as

wget -O book https://rada.vision/en/book && grep -o "post_title usg_post_title_1 entry-title..[^>]*" book |sed -e 's/[><]/@/g' |awk -F @ '{print $2}' |wc

using normal GNU/Linux bash (Unix shell) commands. The current core member list, per the English-language page of the Council itself, as archived at https://archive.today/8BMl9, is:

1. Natalia Abrashina-Zhadaeva
2. Sviatlana Aleksievich
3. Nadzeya Astapchuk
4. Maksim Bahratsou
5. Andrei Bastunets
6. Pavel Belavus
7. BelAZ
8. BELSHINA
9. Ales Bialiatski
10. Belarusian Steel Works (BMZ)
11. Siarhei Chaly
12. Aliaksandr Dabravolski
13. Pavel Daneika
14. Natalya Dulina
15. Uladzimir Dunaeu
16. Siarhei Dyleuski
17. Svetlana Gatalskaya
18. Alana Gebremariam
19. Denis Gotto
20. Hrodna Azot
21. Yury Hubarevich
22. Yury Hushcha
23. Aliaksandr Jarashuk
24. Maria Kalesnikava
25. Volha Kavalkova
26. Mikalai Kazlou
27. Mikhail Kirilyuk
28. Anzhelika Krashevskaya
29. Vitali Krivko
30. Dzmitry Kruk
31. Andrei Kureichyk
32. Pavel Latushka
33. Yauhen Livyant
34. Kseniya Lutskina
35. Aleg Maisiejew
36. Natalia Makaeva
37. Tatsiana Marinich
38. Valery Matskevich
39. Minsk Automobile Plant (MAZ)
40. Yuliya Mitskevich
41. Mozyr Oil Refinery
42. Minsk Wheel Tractor Plant (MZKT)
43. JSC NAFTAN
44. Dmitriy Nagaichenko
45. Serzh Navrodsky
46. Dmitry Podolinsky
47. Andrei Porotnikov
48. Uladzimir Pugach
49. Piotr Rudkouski
50. Vital Rymasheuski
51. Mikita Salavei
52. Aliaksei Shchurko
53. Nikolay Shibeko
54. Alexey Shkor
55. Volha Shparaha
56. Mikalai Strekha
57. Yury Stulov
58. Konstantin Titov
59. Vitali Valianuk
60. Liliya Vlasova
61. Tatiana Vodolazhskaya
62. Andrei Yahorau
63. Aksana Zaretskaya
64. Maksim Znak

So right now that's 64 people (some are anonymous, presumably for their own protection, listed as representatives of their factories). That's more than 47. Boud (talk) 17:02, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Council's declaration of an ultimatum

@Boud: There's no evidence the Council participated somehow in the ultimatum declaration. It was sole initiative of Sviatlana Tikhanovskaya
See: here, here

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Pingswan (talk • contribs) 20:05, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Vlasova - detained? in Belarus or not?

It may be the case that the Coordination Council doesn't wish to state whether Vlasova is still in Belarus or not, for security reasons, though it would be difficult to imagine that she can remain in Belarus without the KGB knowing that. In any case, the best info we have, which we cannot state explicitly, just leave it implicit, is that she's the one member of the Council who is in Belarus and not in prison. For obvious privacy reasons, if she doesn't wish her location to be known, of course Wikipedia will not reveal that location. Boud (talk) 18:53, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Historical information is not obsolete

In this edit, an IP editor stated removed obsolete information as one of the descriptions of the edit. This is based on a misunderstanding of Wikipedia. Wikipedia pages on political structures are not a guide book for the "current" state of political structures in the world. This is an encyclopedia. Properly sourced historical information is encyclopedic information: it does not become obsolete. For example, Julius Caesar is no longer the dictator of the Roman Republic, but that does not justify removing information about Caesar from Wikipedia. See also WP:NOTPAPER. Boud (talk) 18:02, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Structure

I've restructured the article, since the addition of the "convocations" with a sudden removal of content made it difficult to see where content should be placed. The way to integrate long-term overview information with chronological information is a bit tricky, since the structure of the Council has evolved, although the main objectives haven't changed. Probably "Objectives" should be made into its own section without "Structure". The question of how to integrate the various sourced encyclopedic info we have on structure with the "three convocations" view of the evolution of the Council then remains. Boud (talk) 22:56, 21 September 2024 (UTC)