Talk:Cooper Union speech

Full text

The complete text of the speech does not need to be here for two main reasons: it is very long, and it is also found in and linked to this Wikisource page. As a litmus test, I clicked on some pages in Category:Speeches to see if they had the whole speech contained therein. Some pages with the text are:

• Gettysburg Address, which is only 271 words, and only includes one of five historical versions;
• Axis of evil, at 234, which is still only part of a 3800-word speech;
• Sermon on the Mound only quotes a few sentences, though that may be out of copyright issues;
• Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God only quotes seven words, despite the full sermon being over 7200 words;
• Robert F. Kennedy's speech on the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr. at 556 words long isn't quoted directly at all, despite being ranked as one of the best American speeches of all times (the article cites as such);
• John Maclean's Speech From the Dock quotes 379 words out of a 7575 word speech;
• the Sermon on the Mount article doesn't quote that passage for any length past 3 words or so, despite there being 6 free versions of the Bible on gutenberg.org, and the same can be said for Sermon on the Plain;
• The Farewell Sermon is quoted entirely at less than 700 words, by far the longest full quotation, and there is even dispute over which version is accurate on its talk page;
• The character of Mark Antony gives the speech Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears, which is not quoted past the first line despite being almost 500 words long;
• Give me Liberty, or give me Death! is only about those 7 words, not about the 1215-word speech;
• Abraham Lincoln's Farewell Address is quoted in whole at 150 words, and so short that handwritten by Lincoln himself it only takes up a single page!

I believe that those points show that the entire speech ‘’does not’’ need to be quoted, merely linked to at wikisource. This also follows the instructions at WP:QUOTE. As such, I am removing the text from the page. —ScouterSig 17:30, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

• As the creator of this page, I completely disagree with this action. I can't understand for the life of me why you would remove the actual speech from the speech page, but if you feel that strongly about it, be it. It appears very nonsensical.--Persianhistory2008 (talk) 06:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I put in a greatly pared-down version in. I think it could be shortened more. But since this is one of the more important speeches in US political hisotry it deserves to be here, at leats in part, along with some analysis. regards, DMorpheus (talk) 16:16, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that what is quoted now is still excessive. I have nothing against quoting some powerful of poignant parts, but as I said before, the entire speech is linked to at the wikisource project; why quote such a large swath? —ScouterSig 17:28, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The article without the speech and without any analysis of the speech is completely useless. Ideally the article would contain the best bits along with some analysis of Lincoln's logic and style, along with the effects, if any, of the speech. I am just getting started. I don't object to further trimming (as I wrote above) but the basics of the speech should be preserved. Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 17:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed organization of article

I suggest the article be reworked a bit with the following organization:

1. Introduction

2. Background:

• Links to slavery article
• Links to Lincoln-Douglas debates
• Links to presidential campaign of 1860
• Reason for the speech

3. Structure of the speech

4. Excerpted text (much as we have now, perhaps a bit shorter)

5. Aftermath / effects

• Contemporary reactions in the press
• Lincoln's nomination by the Republicans
• Modern assessments

Thoughts? Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 18:28, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the excerpts are way too long and should be removed, or at least heavily shortened. This is in keeping with Wikipedia standards for any other major speech that you'll find. Wikisource is for such large amounts of quoting. Petrichor (talk) 21:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I think we've cut too much now. I agree it needed to be cut shorter than the Mar 08 versions....but this is just too much. Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 18:56, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Scoutersig's cutting is good and not excessive. It was not as though this were some extensive original writing, this was just excerpts you had placed in the article, without any explanation and extrapolation on it. Petrichor (talk) 00:15, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the aftermath should be more detailed. In Holzer's book, he says that Lincoln was not well known nationally prior to this speech and because the NY press printed it in their newspapers, and it quickly propagated to the rest of the country, this speech was largely responsible for his election. I will go back over the book soon, that I read a few years ago and add some to the aftermath. --rogerd (talk) 16:19, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

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External links modified

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Thanks to whoever sectionized the quotes

It would be quite cumbersome to go through all the diffs to figure out who that was, but adding sub-sections was a good idea... AnonMoos (talk) 08:47, 5 December 2019 (UTC)