Talk:Concordats of Constance

Europe Low‑importance

	Europe portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Europe, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to European topics of a cross-border nature on Wikipedia.EuropeWikipedia:WikiProject EuropeTemplate:WikiProject EuropeEurope articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Catholicism Low‑importance

Concordats of Constance is within the scope of WikiProject Catholicism, an attempt to better organize and improve the quality of information in articles related to the Catholic Church. For more information, visit the project page.CatholicismWikipedia:WikiProject CatholicismTemplate:WikiProject CatholicismCatholicism articles

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Catholicism task list:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Article requests : see Draft articles
Assess : see Category:Unassessed Catholicism articles; Category:Unknown-importance Catholicism articles
Cleanup : Blessed Virgin Mary (see the talk page)
Collaborate : Invitation template needed, see Category:WikiProject invitation templates
Copyedit : Cuthbert Tunstall
Expand : Angelus; Roman Catholicism in Kosovo; Bishop Adolph John Paschang; Cum sæpe accidere; Altar Society; American Board of Catholic Missions; Bernard Häring
NPOV : Americanism (heresy); Ensoulment
Photo : see Category:Wikipedia requested photographs of Catholicism
Stubs : see Category:Stub-Class Catholicism articles; Category:Catholic Church stubs
Update : Peer review; John Aloysius Maguire
Verify : Archdiocese of Glasgow; Archbishop of Westminster; Bishop; Saint Mungo; Sanctification; Westminster Cathedral
Other : Watch recent changes for Catholicism articles

Politics Low‑importance

	Politics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

The "Nationes"

Sorry User:Srnec, i think that there is a misunderstanding. It's probably a fault in explaining things from my part. You say "Papal states don't make sense. the source don't support what you say but I'll leave Venice". I have re-added everything (sources + facts) for the simple reason that there is a misunderstanding here. The sources do actually support what is written, and I don't want to leave something in (Venice) without the source with which it was introduced. Again, it's probably been a fault in explaining things from my part. Here's the issue:

1)The papal states were not part of imperial Italy (they maybe were in the early Holy Roman Empire, but definetely not in the 15th century). It's a term used to describe a collection of Italian states under the temporal authority of the Pope (Rome and Bologna for example, even if city-states, were part of the papal states). So, just like all the other Italian states, by default the Papal states were part of the Italian "nation".

2)That specific source about Constance mentions explicitely the Papal states. I have put the whole sentence verbatim. But you can also read the following pages of that book and realize what was the "Italian nation". A collection of prelates from the Italian peninsula. Example: a cardinal from Rome, another from Florence etc etc. It's crystal clear.

3)If you pick a single random session of the council of constance you'll find the names of the Papal States representatives of the Italian nation, such as Cerretano (mentioned by the first source) or Leonardo Dati or Panfoldo Malatesta or the guy elected Pope (Oddo Colonna, Martin V). One of his main supporters was from Venice. Both were Italians and part of the Italian nation, and co-operated within that framework. This is the second source (it's in Italian but if you want I can translate it as I speak it).

4)The concept of Nation was present at many councils up to Trent. And the Italian nation always included the entire Italian peninsula. My only doubt is actually about Sicily in some councils. Especially because Sicily meant both Naples and Sicily.

So what is the issue? What's wrong with my reasoning? Thank you. Barjimoa (talk) 08:04, 3 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing is wrong with your reasoning. I think you have the wrong question! It is not "were the Papal States part of the Italian natio?", but rather "what were the states covered by the concordat with the Italian natio?" I do not dispute that the Papal States were part of the Italian nation at Constance. What I dispute is that it makes sense to say that they were the subject of the Italian concordat, assuming one existed. Why would the pope make a treaty with himself? Also, the Duchy of Milan was a part of Imperial Italy. Srnec (talk) 00:01, 4 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's the problem of not having the Italian concordat. So we don't know who signed this pact and if the Pope disciplined things unilaterally for the Papal states outside of the pact. Or maybe inside of it. But since this thing has not survived, I guess it was probably just a general agreement made between all the prelates and deputies from Italy. As you said it, we assume it to have existed but we don't actually have it.Barjimoa (talk) 06:58, 4 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]