Talk:Communist Party of Greece/Archive 3

Material removed from article

I removed this information on the removal of children from Greece after the Civil War as it does not relate to the KKE directly. If anywhere, it belongs to the DSE or Civil War articles. I've copyedited it down to the second last paragraph. It needs to be worked on owing to POV.

I've reworked the last paragraph, removing POV and original research and synthesis.--Damac 12:01, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

According to non-KKE sources, in 1948, the DSE evacuated about 30,000 children from Greek villages across the northern frontiers, to be brought up under Communist regimes.. According to some accounts, the abductions were for the children's own protection; according to other accounts, the children were to be indoctrinated as janissaries. Several United Nations General Assembly resolutions appealed for the repatriation of children to their homes. According to the KKE's official history as well as books written in modern times by high-ranking former DSE officials who have remained loyal to the KKE,, the evacuation of the families of DSE fighters was as a measure taken after the Battle of Grammos in summer 1948 and the defeat of the 3rd DSE Division in the Peloponnese, after which some DSE soldiers and their families were executed by the Greek Army as well as militia groups once loyal to the Germans. The children of DSE and communist prisoners which came under the control of the National Army ended up to one of the 58 "Children Cities" of the Queen, institutions known for their brutality and exploitation. According to US reports compiled during the Civil War, in the territories controlled by the DSE, emigration was quite small because of the good relations the DSE managed to keep with the local population, which contrasted with the results that followed National Army advances and the defeat of the DSE. As attested by the United Nations General Assembly, Albania, Bulgaria and Yugoslavia gave moral and material assistance to the DSE, including the use of their territory as a base for the preparation and launching of armed actions in Greece. The Greek Civil War was to last until 1949, with the defeat of the communist forces. Factors that led to the defeat of the DSE include the discontinuation of aid from Yugoslavia following the latter's expulsion from the Cominform in 1948, as well as the massive influx of US military aid in the form of equipment and training. As described by DSE Brigadier Colonel Aristidis Camarinos in his book , when the United Nations resolutions were passed the DSE 3rd Brigade was in control of 75 per cent of the Peloponnese, suggesting that the DSE did not rely solely on foreign intervention as it would have impossible for the DSE's supporters over the border to send soldiers to remote camps thousands of kilometres away. Albania and Bulgaria did leave their borders open for DSE troops. In the region of Mount Vitsi, the DSE headquarters straddled the border. The main field hospitals and ammunition stores were located in this area. According to General Thrasymvoulos Tsakalotos , in 1948 US military advisers forced the Greek government to appoint him as Chief of Staff of the Greek Army and to end the DSE presence in the Peloponnese. Failure to do so would result in the withdrawal of US aid.

I believe that this delicate issue is part of KKE's history, as it effected the evolution of the party itself in the organizations created in the Socialist Countries. I believe that this issue is of extreme importance equal to the formation of DSE, showing the extremely difficult situation that DSE fighters and KKE political leadership had to face at the end of 1948 -beginning of 1949. Dkace 06:46, 15 October 2007 (UTC)D.K. Ace

I strongly disagree that DSE does not strongly relate to KKE. KKE was the only political force in Greece that supported the so-called DSE. For all intents and purposes, DSE was KKE. In adding the section on the forced abduction of children, in an attempt to keep things NPOV, I have not mentioned the word paidomazoma neither have I referred to the findings of the Balkan Commission of the United Nationa that stigmatized the paidomazoma as genocide. All references to the paidomazoma are stated in NPOV terms and backed by references. What do other people think? Rastapopoulos 07:09, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Please let me explain again. This article is about the KKE. Wikipedia also has articles on the DSE, the Provisional Democratic Government, ELAS, EAM, the Greek Civil War and so on. Information contained in one article should not be replicated in another. Now, where does this information on the children belong? The issue relates to equally to the DSE (the people who moved the children), the Provisional Democratic Government (the authority that formally ordered it), the Greek Civil War (the conditions that resulted in it), and the KKE (the party that administered these children in the Eastern Bloc). Perhaps its time to start a new article on the issue - it's a very interesting topic - and to have links from each of the articles above to it.

I just don't think that the article on the KKE is the place to have a 3-4 paragraph analysis of the rights and wrongs of the children's issue.--Damac 07:38, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough! Of course finding a name for such an atricle would be tantamount to opening quite a can of worms. Paidomazoma will probably be contested as POV, by the ideological heirsf those who perpetrated it. I suggest "Child abductions in the Greek civil war" as fairly NPOV. Any suggestions? As for the articles on the Civil War and DSE, boy do they merit oodles of NPOV editing!!! Cheers, Rastapopoulos 08:44, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

An article for that subject is not needed I think. You can add information by creating a section to the DSE article. Keep in mind that KKE denies that, so it would be better to present both sides. -- Magioladitis 09:27, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Surely it qualifies as an article. Not only did it involve up to 50,000 people, but it was the subject of international attention in the 1950s. On top of that, in recent years quite a number of scholarly research has been carried out on the fate of these children in numerous languages. It is certainly considered a topic in its own right.

As regards a name, how about the Evacuation of children from Greece after the Greek Civil War or Removal of children from Greece after the Greek Civil War? Or, to take the title of a recent conference on the subject, we could call it Child refugees from Greece in the Eastern Bloc after the Greek Civil War.

Whether the KKE accepts it or not, of course the article would present both sides of the argument.--Damac 09:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree to place it as a different subject and put there all the references available. Since there were two different "evacuations" referenced in CIVIL WAR history - the one that DSE did and the one that National Army did. The second one had also international coverage back in '50s and as a balance the monarch-fascists in Greece had to make there own story for this subject. I believe it should be under special section on Democratic Army of Greece article where all relevant sources can be put and present a full picture. It is not aligned with wiki policy though to use a title like " Child refugees from Greece in the Eastern Block after the Greek Civil War" since this history does not concern only children located in the ex-Socialist Republics but also children imprisoned and sold to families mainly in US during '50s. So a correct title should be Child refugees from Greece after the Greek Civil War, and as subsections could be : Children located in Socialist States, Children ended up in "Children Cities" in Greece. Nevertheless I believe that there should be a special paragraph with the families evacuated by DSE to avoid slaughter in the section of KKE during Civil War. Dkace 11:20, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I started the article. Please see [Political refugees of the Greek Civil War]]. I named it so it can also deal with the adults as well as the children who were made refugees as a result of the war. It was necessary to use the term "political refugees" (indeed this is what the refugees themselves used), to distinguish them from people who may have made refugees from the War but as a result of DSA attacks.--Damac 12:47, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Socialists, Communists and other naming conventions on wikipedia article

There is a problem with Point of Views again: If documentation is stating that DSE had High Command and Florakis is a Brigadier General, then you can't call DSE a "listosimmorites" ( Thiefs and murderers or guerrillas) and there leaders Chiefs, captains or what ever other wing propaganda is placing as there names. Same, National Army can't be called "Greek Army" or "Morch-fasist Army" as its name by the State and by all political forces was National Army. If Provisional Government states its goal as " Greece to become a People's Republic under Socialism" one can't sate that Socialism is a "totalitarian Communist state therefore I will change it to Communist State ". Personal Points of view, although can be stated in here -in talk page- can not be part of a historical article. I hope we can agree to that.

Dkace 10:38, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

1. It is highly misleading to simply state that DSE wanted to install a socialist government, as there are hundreds of varieties of socialism: communism, democratic socialism, eco-socialism, guild socialism, libertarian socialism, market socialism, revolutionary socialism, social democracy, utopian socialism, national socialism, buddhist socialism, christian socialism, islamic socialism, etc etc ad infinitum. What DSE wanted to install was a soviet-type of communism. It is not POV to mention it. Unless one has the POV to be secretly ashamed of pointing it out and would like to hide behind the portmanteau of socialism....DSE was communist. As the Americans say, if it walks like a duck, if it looks like a duck and if it quacks like a suck, then it is a duck. Διατί να το κρύβωμεν άλλωστε?
2. I have never used the term listosimmorites, please do not put words in my mouth. But the fact remains that the war was between the Hellenic Army, a regular army of an elected government with international recognition (including that of the USSR) on the one hand, and an irregular army of DSE's multi-culti guerrillas, which was domestically only supported by one party (KKE), and internationally by Soviet satellite states such as that beloved socialist paradise Albania. So the use of proper military rank (eg Brigadier etc) for the leaders of an irregular bunch of guerrillas is misleading. Unless you feel that a party, KKE in this case, has the right to bestow proper military rank to people who have not even completed a military academy! Does KKE also have the authority to issue PhDs and medical degrees? Guerrilla monickers such as captain by the way, are not "fascist propaganda" -- your so-called brigadier Florakis chose the title himself: Kapetan Yotis :-) Rastapopoulos 10:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Please do not be confused by your anti-communist passion: I used the words that both sides were calling each other. I still state that whatever our opinion is, in order to maintain the article as neutral as possible we have to adopt at least naming convention of each side. If you believe that the Monarch-fascist soldiers guided by Van Fleet and Purifoe were Regular Army, please do so, but neither me or you can state this on a whan-to-be neutral article for KKE.

- If you can't understand the big difference between Social-Democrats, Socialists-Communists and other similar content of Marxism it is your problem. As it is my problem not to understand the difference between a "liberal" and a "fascist" when they align against communists and socialist. But we are not to solve this here. Provisional Governments aim was a Socialist State under the title People's Republic of Greece. One can put as many sources as he/she wants for this aim , pro or con but none can put his point of view on an article under the title KKE. as we have established so far, sources, regardless their level, are accepted. So, I insist on walking on this line.

Crucial fact for the Civil War is that you have two armies from the same nation. In out case both armies had military trained officers, both armies had political officials, both armies were referring to a government. In the case of DSE, you should be more aware of its tactics as these are still a lecture on Supreme School of War of the modern Greek Army. You should also check the memoirs of Tsakalotos and other hi-rank official of the monarch-fascist army. They are quite revealing of the situation inside the two camps those years. Capitan Yiotis and Capitan Diamandis, Aris, Hfaistos etc were indeed names ( not ranks) chosen by these officials. Capitan, general, Colonel or what else is there were ranks given by the High Command and the Provisional Government. If Mitsotakis and Papandreou accepted this fact in 1989, you should also, otherwise you are very close to be accused as ...extreme-biased "liberal" ! :)))Dkace 11:39, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

What on earth is AKE, the political force that you claim also supported DSE in addition to KKE? Is it some rubber-stamp offshoot of KKE? It remainds me of George Bush's embarassing coalition countries in the Iraq War which include "superpowers" like the Marshall Islands etc! Wake up and smell the coffee: KKE was the only local political force to support the DSE. Rastapopoulos 13:55, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

" If history doesn't serve our purposes then too bad for history..." AKE: Agrarian Party of Greece, Αγροτικό Κόμμα Ελλάδας. During Civil War this party was partially merged with KKE. It is true that the Communist Party was the main political force behind DSE and Provisional Government, but there were also others, personalities, small groups etc, that were still allies with KKE and entered the anti-imperialistic struggle.

I don't use substitutes to wake up, so I leave the coffee, the cocaine or whatever else you enjoy to you with the hope that this anti-communist passion of yours will not eat your guts at the end of the day. Do not try to create wrong impressions, try to read some of the 50 references of this article, you may be extremely enlighten! (I wish...:D)Dkace 14:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

1. Exactly! The analogy of KKE members to AKE members in DSE are the same as the American soldiers to Marshall Island soldiers in Iraq :)
2. You probably also dont use soap either, given the natural hygiene lifestyles of fragrant KNITES and KNITISSES. By the way, thanks for the offer , but I think your psychedelics have passed their expiration date, on the day the Berlin Wall came tumbling down :) PS what is an anti-communist pation? Rastapopoulos 14:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

As my greenglish evolve, I found that pation is equal to passion, but you already knew that! As for AKE, by that time it was a different party with different structure and different members working closely with KKE. As KKE was leading the struggle against the imperialism in Greece this doesn't deprive its potential to form alliances with personalities, groups or parties with smaller political force. The KNitis fragrance is a good one, yet it is better if you enjoy it with a liberal DAPitissa! :DDkace 07:02, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

By the way, in a previous edit of yours you mentioned that Kapetan Yiotis went on a mission behind enemy lines, meaning within monarcho-fascist Greece (according to KKE, AKE and SNOF) or Free Greece (according to all other Greeks). I would like to ask you a few questions in good faith:

1. As a kou-kou-es, do you feel today that you are living behind enemy lines?
2. Now that the King is gone and forgotten (so there is no question of monarcho-fascist state) do you believe the Greek state is fascist?

If you answered yes to any of the above questions, would you feel more at home in a People's Republic such as North Korea? Thanks in advance for your answers! Rastapopoulos 07:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC) PS No 1. as for AKE it is nice to know that KKE also had some local (albeit marginal) political allies, and not only the likes of the Bulgarian Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization :-) Rastapopoulos 07:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC) PS No.2 Best of luck with the DAPitissa, that would be rising up in the food chain :) Rastapopoulos 08:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

You mix again reality with your expectations for reality:

a. At the end of the Civil War in Greece, there was one battle front well established in terms of military tactics ( which obviously you don't understand): That of Grammos. Therefore, operating that front was for DSE operating behind enemy lines. Answering your question, first I am not a kou-kou-es ( I know you very much like to use naming convention that security police had been teaching to your breed for 60 years) I am a Greek Communist. I live to Greece and I am struggling for better future for me, my children, my people. Not alone, with all of them. I see enemies, only when I demand my rights through syndicates and oppression mechanisms are fighting against me. Where do you stand, is the question ( rhetorical after thousands of lines in here I must say). And to feed your curiosity, I feel at home and I want the thiefs and the murderers away from it, as DSE did, but failed at the end. Thousands other carry on though! A small defeat is the best way to final victory!

b. The history of KKE being an anti-greek party that wants to destroy our Nation is long -gone and condemned by the vast majority of this People regardless their political beliefs. Unfortunately, there are still "units" leaving in the past and don't see ahead of their nose what the evolution is.

c. Indeed being a DAPitis is a low level mamal. They communicate with screams like: "Aa kai OUOU kai DAP-NouDou-FouKou" . So becoming equal partners with communists or other normal people is a rise up in the food chain. :D Dkace 10:48, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Boys, this is not the school yard. Rastapopoulos AND Dkace, can you please refrain from arguing political matters on Wikipedia. I suggest you exchange email/telephone details and continue your deliberations elsewhere.--Damac 10:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

1. To conclude I would just like to say that had DSE won the civil war, it is likely that Greece and Greeks would have presently have been in the same position as our northern neighbors Bulgaria and Albania: workers would be making an average salary of about Euros 150 per month ( except for ex-Party members who would be ruling the economy and many women who would be sadly exercising the oldest profession abroad). Ah yes, Greeks would also need a visa to visit Thessaloniki...
2. The beginning of a great friendship? I think not...I will respect Damac’s advice and refrain from any personal discussion going forward. Rastapopoulos 12:29, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

As history is not written with "if..." sentences, it is obvious that you describe your wishes as reality. Unfortunately for you, the Greece's neighbors are under your favorite "liberal" capitalism and they are starving to death, following a completely different path than 20 years ago, when industry was flourishing and the people's life was 100 times better. For this you can just check on the statistics. Following your lead though, let's say that DSE was winning the war, then Greece wouldn't have become a part of the imperialist camp, Turkey would have certainly follow , not to mention middle east. Woh! A world without US and British control of the oil!!! Imagine that Purifoi, the ambassador during Civil War in Greece, is not appointed to latin America after his failure in Greece, Korea is one and is a socialist state!!! Then dear "liberal" - right winged-...- today we will be talking ghow to improve mistakes of socialism, not if communists are murders and thief's.

As this is an "If..." sentence, you can't object to this "reality"! But as written before " History is not written with ifs..." .Dkace 07:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

(With my apologies to Damac!) Industry was flourishing in the good old days of Real Socialism, you say, just check at the statistics. This argument would equally hold for Nazi Germany and Greece during the Junta. Ah, the glorious Kozloduy Nuclear Power Plant, Chernobyl, the concrete gray Xenia Hotels built by Papadopoulos thoughout Greece, the trains leaving on time during the rule of il Duce, fun fun fun in Adolf's autobahn! But all at the expense of political freedom and basic human rights. Thanks, but no thanks! (Ευχαριστώ αλλά δεν θα πάρω!) PS Dkace if you really want to discuss theoretical issues not related to KKE, let us continue at either my or your discussion page. Rastapopoulos 07:52, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

My apologies for the negligence. I thought for a moment that by doing some abstractive statements regarding the status quo of the life in ex-Socialist States you will get your answer regarding the today economical status- but no! Anti- Communist Propaganda is deep down your bones.

Let's continue this under my discussion page.I agree. Dkace 09:25, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Aye, aye, kapetan! Rastapopoulos 09:50, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Is the expression "Official KKE history" a valid one?

I propose that the expression "official KKE history" is POV-laden; there is nothing "official" about history written by any party. I instead propose "KKE archives" or the current "party line" - let us not forget that the party line of KKE at the time changed very frequently to reflect the latest orders received from its base in Moscow. Rastapopoulos 14:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Please note that you are trying to contribute to an article, not to make cheap propaganda of your anti-communist opinions.

One way or another, KKE's archives, as well as KKE's releases on its own history should be the base documents in order to present the history of a party. Other sources, such as sources from politicians, generals or others that opposing KKE or opposed it in the past should be presented as well. The effort should be not to try to mix things in such a manner that will not help presenting the real facts.

I.e. If I want to present that KKE was the backbone of greek resistance,( this being my POV) I have to do it via VALID sources that can back this up. Same applies if I want to show that KKE's only aim was to murder innocent civilians and betray Greece( my POV again). If I use a source like i.e. Marinos, who is a wright winged journalist and he is - using his words- an anti-communist, then I have to state it so in the article. On the other hand, if I use KKE's released documents from KKE, I have to state that these are KKE's official documents. If I want to use documents that today are being processed by Coalition of Left, then I have to state that this source is coming from this process.

Applying this policy, everybody can contribute his/hers portion of knowledge, avoiding silly "battles" that end to a non-valid article.

Despite the above "fight" between "good and evil" I believe that we can at least agree on this presentation.Up-to-day we managed to do it quite well, let's refine it and the article will be a "state of the art" - at least regarding its presentation.

Dkace 13:39, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

1. I will not comment on your repeat ad hominem attack about my "cheap propaganda". Please read about AGF and DBF before pursuing the matter forward.
2. My point is that the expression "KKE party-line" or "KKE's official archives" is preferable to "Official KKE history." Let us see what others have to say.
3. You have used expressions such as "according to sworn enemies of KKE" or "according to anti-communist propaganda" which are clearly biased and non-wiki. I can imagine you hitting the ceiling if someone wrote "according to pro-communist propaganda." - and rightly so! Think about it. Moreover, it would be very awkward to write "according to pro-communist sources / according to anti-communist sources" thoughout the articles. I suggest instead that it is more NPOV so say: "according to communist sources / according to non-communist sources". Let us see what others have to say. Rastapopoulos 15:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if you received the phrase "cheap propaganda" as an attack, it wasn't my intention ( this time). I only wanted to stress out that by using phrases like "party line" on cases of historical facts is like you are trying to apply propaganda rules to a history article. I withdraw the phrase, please keep the meaning .

I found the phrase "sworn enemies" replacing my edit of "anti-communists" and I thought that it was edited in order to avoid biased view of the subject. I agree on your suggestion. Each event that has different approach from multiple source should be noted as you suggest.

Regarding the propaganda issue, i stated my opinion of some sources such as Marinos. Even me or you can write down a small "book", baptize it "Source of History" and make a reference to it. No problem with Woodhouse, or the "Black Bible of Communism" - no problem as a source, as they serve certain political views but they have done there homework - but if we have to refer to Marinos as a source we have to state his political opinion on the issue: Sworn enemy of KKE. Same as G. Papandreou. Although PM and Minister from 1920 to 1967, he was the "supreme" communist "prosecutor" throughout modern greek history. In his speeches in 1950 he was proud of it. When we refer to him as a source regading KKE histry, this, I think, should also be stated.

Dkace 08:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the constructive comments. I still do not agree with the expression "sworn enemy of communism", very much the same way as you would oppose (and rightly so) to the expression "sworn enemy of democracy" if applied to KKE. How about using the expression "political opponent of..."? Rastapopoulos 09:09, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Communists are not "sworn enemies of democracy" but of capitalism. I agree on the expression. Let's use "political opponent of KKE". Dkace 09:34, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, agreed. However, please note that sincere democrats (and I am not refering to the type of democrats you appreciated Pol Pot) are sworn enemies of a dictatorship of the proletariat, as they are of all types of democracy. And no, I do not consider G. Bush a sincere democrat ;-) Rastapopoulos 07:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

You refer a lot to red hmers of Cambodia. I never favorite there politics and tactics neither there perspective of "socialism". There regime was defeated from Vietnam forces in 1976 and the Socialist government of Vietnam gave the chance to Cambodian people to vote for their government. Today, there is King ruling and a center government after "western" type elections.Economy is Capitalistic, applying good relations with Vietnam. This happened because revolutionary forces of Vietnam could not tolerate the Red Hmer's ruling in the name of Socialism and did their best to protect the neighbor nation.

As for "dictatorship of the proletariat", this has the ultimate democratic rules than any other "democratic" state: Its base is the decisions of the union meetings -unions referring to working places or leaving places- were all the people have access can put there opinion under questioning and vote for the best. This is organized up to the top the same way, and decisions are going from the base to the leadership and vice versa before hitting the streets. When this model is not working, then small or huge problems are created ( like the ex-Socialist States). What I want to stress out is that is not an one way road this "dictatorship of the proletariats" . What it is for sure, is the only - until today- answer to the "dictatorship of the Capitalists" which is being dressed as " western type democracy", "dictatorships". "Nazism", "Fascism" etc,etc,etc.

Sorry for this irrelevant answer with the subject ( I believe that part of it is not irrelevant, as it is the bases of the formation of the KKE). If it is too much, we can continue it at my discussion page. Dkace 11:01, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Well it is very democratic, provided you are a proletarian. If you are not a proletarian and are, for example, the owner of a small company that has offered many young people (like ourselves) jobs and is not a lackey of domestic and foreign monopolies, then you are at the receiving end of the cucumber of this so-called democratic dictatorship ;-) For me this is not a hypothetical story, because I am the owner of such a company (which I created, and not inherited from anyone). Maybe we can continue it at the dictatorship of the proletariat discusssion page ! Rastapopoulos 12:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

It depends on which category of the working class you are referring as "proletarians". Back in 1850, these were the industrial workers, receiving no education, no liberties, what so ever. The alliance with the "workers of the land" was obvious, so the Communist party emerged. Today, KKE is aligning its politics in the current economical situations. Proletarians with the original meaning do not exist anymore due to various reasons. But people owing small or medium businesses can be a valid alliance of the modern proletarians? If you think about it, yes. That is because, the socialist revolution doesn't aim in the destroy of any ownership, but first on the control of the production media from the people that operate them: That is the people. A small company can work more prosperous in an environment that its workers have a high status of leaving and can develop its business . But it can't control the economy. After all, if you see it under a different point of view, it is much better and much safe to work for the community and try to develop its standards rather than work against it and try to "make more money". Although simplified, the above are more or less the bases of the "dictatorship of the proletarians". To enhance historically this point, in 1936, there was the 4 year congress of the Agricultural workers in USSR with Stalin introducing the pros and cons of the 19 year evolution of the Soviet Agricultural economy. In his speech, he stressed out that the socialization (κοινωνικοποίηση)of the land in 1936 should be on the 26% of the total hence it was in the 85% which was causing problems with the agrarian population who was not political persuaded to work on the Community farms but they were forced to do it as there was no other way to gain profit. According to CPSU that was a big mistake in their socialist economy. A mistake they never fixed due to the war... Today, KKE is fighting with the greek farmers to maximize there production and deliver goods to the greek people that need them instead of following politics that minimize the farmer population and leave the land . Is it because it favors small or medium property on land? No! It is because victims of the capitalization of the agricultural productions are the farmers and they have to defend there land and their production in order the rest of the people to enjoy fresh and low cost agricultural products. Many other examples can follow, but let's stay on the right path :D "dictatorship of proletarians", "Socialist Republic" etc are the system that the people rule - pretty similar to the principles of ancient Athens Democracy. All systems have mistakes, the question is which system guarantees a better future for humanity. For me this is Socialism, and the advanced stage, Communism. Dkace 13:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Na tonisw stous tiflwmenous apo pathos aristerous-dexious oti stin makedonia to elas den aftoxaraktirizotan ws "komounistiko" alla "patriwtiko" exou kai to megalo draft-rate apo tin perioxi. Episis i ethniki adistasi einai enas mithos. pote den egine tipota sovaro apo ti stigmi tis paradosis kai meta, dexioi kai aristeroi itan poli apasxolimenoi stin prospatheia tous na ifarpaxoun tin exousia kai na ipakousoun stous afendes tous pou afinan tous germanous na alwnizoun.

gia perissoteres plirofories diavaste ta vivlia tou ges gia to thema kai tis apoleies twn nazi apo ta arxeia tis stazi (na sas xenerwsw to noumero einai dipsifio, se troxea to pasxa perissoteroi pethenoun).

Sorry for the greek but there should be bilingual answer on this post:

File mou anwnyme, to na diavazeis mia pigi kai na nomizeis oti katexeis ti monadiki alitheia, den nomizw oti prosferei kai kati idiaitero. Gia skepsou ta akoloutha:

1. Pou vrikes ta arxeia tis Stazi gia tin Elliniki antistasi? Ta mona arxeia gia tin katoxi pou exoun kykloforisei einai kati biased anafores twn katoxikwn dynamewn pou profanws - opws kai oi amerikanoi sto IRAQ- den anaferoun tipota! Mono i dimoiria tou theiou mou stin Hleia katharise 200 Germanous sto Lala tin anoiksi tou 1944! Kai itan 16 atoma, 1h Ypodeigmatiki tou Syntagmatos tis Olympias.

2. Ta arxeia tou GES den anagnorizoun drasi Ethnikis Antistasis se organomeno strato. Oute kan anaferonte kai opou to kanoun prospathoun na apodeiksoun oti o stratos tis mesis anatolis itan o "Ethnikos Stratos". Kalo, e! Kai tote giati oi Nazi kratagan 11 merarxies sti xwra, xwria tous Italous kai tous Voulgarous?

3. To na eksoraizeis kai na midenizeis ton agwna ekatomyriwn gia mia leuteri Ellada einai dikaiwma sou. Opws dikaiwma sou einai na epilegeis kai tis "istorikes piges". Apo ekei kai pera yparxei aki i antikeimeniki pragmatikotita kai uti orizetai apo pollaples piges kai diaforetikes prosegiseis. To oti kapoioi theloun na kataskevasoun tin istoria opws goustaroun, den simainei oti to proion tous einai kai katallilo pros vrosi!!!

Tin epomeni fora kalitero einai na ypografeis ta keimena kai tis diorthwseis sou.

Dkace (talk) 08:59, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

KKE'S policy on the secession of northern Greece

Magioladiti, I changed it to the bottom of the article as it refers to the politics of KKE on a special subject. I still have things I want to change and update, but I don't believe that it follows the flow of the artcle if it is put second after the foundation of the party.

If we have to refer to special politics of the party, then we have to open another subject, not a paragraph in between the history issues. Dkace (talk) 13:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

You moved the first 3 paragraphs after the section for the WWII. That's what i reverted. Check the article's history log. Please use summary to describe your actions and talk page for large-scale modifications. -- Magioladitis (talk) 13:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

So, I did and I restore the damage.

Reading the article, from top to bottom, we have: Foundation, WWII, Civil war, Post war era, Legalization. Then participation to governments, alliances, KNE. When I refer to "special" politics, is the above structure. KKE had a policy for WWI, and the Minor Asian campaign long before the Macedonian Issue. It had a policy for the 8 hour work, the social security, the distribution of the land to the poor farmers etc. It was one of the biggest contributors in the big strike of Thessaloniki in 1936 for better salaries, political liberties etc. These form the political agenta of KKE together with the Macedonian issue and the issue of the minorities in the Greek Social State.

I believe that we can present aspect of this political agenta, commend, put references etc, at the end of the historical overview of the party- of any party- not at the beginning.Otherwise the meaning is lost. It is like KKE existed only to "cut" parts of Greece! This is not a correct approach.

Or, we can build the article based on the ideology that KKE is supporting. Then we have to explain why it was founded, what was its first steps - article by article- ans so on .

If we choose the second, we will have a real war in such an article which is not the issue here.

I suggest we move paragraphs that refer to KKE's policy on different issues at the end of the historical presentation.

Dkace (talk) 08:39, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

DKace, I really appreciate your edits to the KKE article. You expand it and helped so that many parts of the article are not disputed. Please take care of WP:POINT before editing just to trigger a conversation.

About the place where the section you moved has to be placed: Maybe we have to change the section's title if this confuses you. But this section is not meant to explain KKE's policy on the secession of N. Greece and the whole story behind it. (Why should in particularly in this subject?) It was meant to be part of the history of KKE and more specifically, it's policy in 20s. And since of of most important political issues discussed in Greece in 20s was this it would be good to know KKE's opinion. So this section has to go before the section for WWII. Moreover, of course it's good that the section also presents KKE's later opinion in order to disallow any misunderstandings. Maybe we ave to present them as a whole? Change the section titles? I don't know. But if we move this section then we have a gap for KKE's policy in 20s. Please suggest another approach. -- Magioladitis (talk) 11:22, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't disagree that this position of KKE was of great importance in the pre-war era. Same magnitude position was the anti-fascist front that was dictated from a decision of Comintern. Same magnitude position was the participation in the government of 1935 under the Sofouli-Sklavena treaty. What I want to stress out, is that this era is not illustrated in the article - that is the mid-war era-. We use a title "KKE'S policy on the secession of northern Greece" just after the openning of the KKE article, directly "implying" that KKE's main role of existance was to destroy Greece. Just check the structure of the article.

Instead of this, we can rename the paragraph as " KKE during the Mid-War Era" and have this chapter explained in detail ( or not) in there. Otherwise - and until we decide that- I suggest we leave at the end of the article, not as an issue of minor importance, but as a special point that has to be stressed out.This is my feeling for the present article's structure.

Dkace (talk) 12:08, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Aim

I believe an important addittion would be a description of the agenda of KKE at the moment (probably a summary of Πρόγραμμα του ΚΚΕ would be enough). Better yet a retrospection throught time of the refinements and changes that came to. I mention it since I definately don't have the time to do it. A nice, fairly independent source might be the Από τη «Λαοκρατία» στην «Αλλαγή» (online) book. Besides CPG archives tend to be very accurate (besides rizospastis). Please dispence with the personal comments rastapopoulos and dkace. I don't care if your father was a x-iths rastapopoulos (or not), stalinist totalitarianism was not the aim of eam and if you want cradible sources go to your history books of trith gymnasiou. The rest of your quarells can be treated the same way. And dkace people with "fragrance" need perfume to cover their smell. I care not if you are commisioned by the CC of CPG or CPSU, all we need here is the truth beyond bourgois perception (mainly), anticommunist propaganda or left-wing petty lies. Please get a grip. You manage to piss off anyone who reads your "discussion".

Houdalakis

My father was a x-iths? Well, your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries! Rastapopoulos (talk) 13:42, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you rastapopoulos. I will make sure to tell them. I am sure my mother will find it some time to run her wheel in celebration and my father to distill the smell. Be assured I hate party puppets as much as anyone. However the overall article does have a right-wing stench and I do feel awkward to see KKE nowadays being equated to KKE of 1930-1949.

Ore Houdalaki! (Or is it XOUNDAlakis?)! What are you mumbling there? You are the only one with the truth embedded on your mind and the rest are either left wing or right wing extremists? You dare calling me as "commisioned by the CC of CPG or CPSU " revealing your true political identity and thus you say that you need the "truth"?

After all, we managed - after a lot of fooling around I admit- to come up with a fairly accepted document that balances all political views and furthermore, for someone that wants to learn, gives him a whole of 80something references to address his search. But OUPS! If you read the references, you may find out that your instructors have teached you a LIE! Sorry, tough world!

But this is apparently not enough for the ONE holding the ONLY truth!

Sorry, try somewhere else. Here we are stack with the lies. Good luck on your lonely journey.

D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dkace (talk • contribs) 13:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Is this a Eurocommunism movement or something more along the lines of the Soviet style/model of communism?

134.121.247.116 (talk) 20:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

KKE is not a movement. Is the Communist PARTY of Greece. It is a Marxist -Leninist based party. Your question is not valid for this decade since Eurocommunism is long gone 15 years now...Dkace (talk) 09:43, 8 December 2008 (UTC)