Talk:Coffin ship

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sharks following the ships

The quote about the sharks following the ships was handed down in my family. The direct source I have is my great aunt Elizabeth whose grandmother would have been on one....Timothy J. O'Hara

Not sure there's a suitable place for family myths and legends in the article, which aren't there under the header of Myth and Legend. Sharks follow in ship's wakes for hydrodynamic reasons, the same reasons many porpoise and dolphins ride on a ship's bow wave. It takes less effort. 84.65.21.188 (talk) 06:03, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguate?

There may be a need to disambiguate between the two types of coffin ships - the ones referred to in the opening paragraph - overinsured ships worth more sunk than afloat are of a different category to the Irish coffin ships. Coolavokig 09:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also think there is a need to disambiguate. Maybe there should be one article for the irish coffin ships and an other, seperate one for the overinsured ones. There is a considerable difference. Benzband (talk) 12:22, 6 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Pursuing conversation in the "split" section (further down the page). Benzband (talk) 15:01, 6 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here are a 2 facts I found out about coffin ships ● The first coffin ship was going to Quebec in Canada. It was a three thousand mile journey, depending on the wind and the captains skills, it would take between forty days and three months! ● In the whole famine 20,000 irish people died on the way to Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.89.155 (talk) 15:02, 31 March 2008 (UTC) [reply]

The same person as above added these 'three' facts to the page, which were improperly integrated into the article:

Here are a few facts I found out about coffin ships ● The first coffin ship was going to Quebec in Canada. It was a three thousand mile journey, depending on the wind and the captains skills, it would take between forty days and three months!
● They use to say there was sharks following the ships because so many dead bodys were being thrown off
● In the whole famine 20,000 irish people died on the way to Canada.

These could be added, but not in their present form. 71.102.208.18 (talk) 04:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Might be worth noting that the picture of the "Good Ship" Jeannie Johnson is actually a Barque; no Crossjack Yard. So not actually a 'Ship'...84.65.21.188 (talk) 06:11, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Many coffin ships were uninsurable. Article needs attention ClemMcGann (talk) 15:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WWII

Why no mention of the Struma, Salvador and MS St. Louis? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.66.146.116 (talk) 23:49, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Split

As mentioned above i have added the {{split}} header to the article.

I think this article would work better as not one but two separate articles: one about the irish coffin ships and one about the over-insured ships. Benzband (talk) 15:01, 6 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

a sensible suggestion Lugnad (talk) 23:55, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done benzband (talk) 16:33, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Authoritative citation needed for coffin ship

This yet another Wikipedia article that begins with the assertion of a dubious premise for which no citation is given. None of the external articles to which the article links claim that the term "coffin ship" specifically refers to ships that carried Irish or Scottish Highland emigrants to the New World, or for that matter to Australia, South Africa or anywhere else.

The title of the 1847 piece by Robert Whyte is "The Journey of an Irish Coffin Ship". Apart from in the title, however, the phrase "coffin ship" appears nowhere in the text, nor does Whyte argue or claim that the expression "coffin ship" refers specifically to ships carrying Irish migrants. "The Irish Emigration of 1847 and its Canadian Consequences", by the Rev John A Gallagher, does not include the term "coffin ship" anywhere. Rather, Gallagher writes: "Little wonder these vessels were called floating coffins."

Here in full, at 3e of the OED online entry for "coffin", is the OED online entry for "coffin ship":

"e. Naut. Applied to an old, ill-found, unseaworthy vessel, as likely to prove the burying-place of those on board. (colloq.)

1833 Ann. Reg. Chron. 32/2 Did not you say when asked if you would go to sea with her, ‘No, for she will prove a coffin for somebody’?

1844 Peter Parley's Ann. V. 275 An English gun-brig, commonly called a coffin.

1881 A. Leslie tr. A. E. Nordenskiöld Voy. Vega I. 277 Floating coffins have often been used in arctic voyages.

[1884 Christian World 7 Feb. 89/4 The coffin-ship must no longer be allowed to sail under British colours.]

I suggest therefore that the article be amended to open with the following, citing the OED entry at the end of the first sentence:

"A coffin ship is an old, ill-found, unseaworthy vessel, as likely to prove the burying-place of those on board. [OED citation]. Specifically, it may be used to refer to the ships that carried Irish immigrants escaping the Great Irish Famine as well as displaced Highlanders due to the Highland Clearances."124.187.117.80 (talk) 02:42, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Web search links : Google, Google books, Dogpile. benzband (talk) 09:48, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Safe, if not comfortable

The phrase "safe, if not comfortable" in the section "Legislation", is ambiguous. It could mean, "safe, and often but not necessarily comefortable", suggesting a somewhat luxurious passage, or it could mean, "generally not comfortable, but at the very least safe," suggesting a cheap, low-class un-luxurious passage. (I think the latter sense is probably more accurate.)--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 05:30, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, but I don't know how we should proceed. That whole section seems to have been copied from here. benzband (talk) 11:07, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Two types of Coffin Ship?

Coffin Ship (insurance) and Coffin Ship relate to the same poor standard vessels I think they should be merged. The Irish emigrant experience of these vessels is historically important but Coffin Ships should not be treated as unique to the Irish or any other specific emigrant group.C3MC2 (talk) 23:58, 10 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There are two meanings here, and I think that its reasonable to maintain two articles. The Coffin ship (insurance) is a poor standard vessel likely to sink, while the Coffin ship described ships where living conditions are so poor that passengers are likely to die, a key example being Irish emigrant groups, but the phenomenon is not exclusive to this group. Klbrain (talk) 07:05, 8 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"a popular (but not entirely accurate) idiom"

This is just an opinion and it isn't even explained or elaborated on. Can it be removed so the introductory paragraph begins "A coffin ship (Irish: long cónra) is an idiom used to..."? AgentClandest (talk) 06:45, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I dug in a bit deeper into this added line as well as another line with a source added by the same user. The line you're referring to in the lede is absolutely unsourced and inaccurate and should be removed. The line "In other words, the term "coffin ships" says more about how emigration during the Great Famine was remembered, rather than how it was actually experienced" is also not supported by the text which instead purports that the term may indeed have come later, but that it doesn't necessarily discount the actual experiences. Rather, it explains why the term became more important to be consistent among future generations without neglecting the very real trauma experienced by those who were too focused on surviving than nicknaming the ships they were packed into. The rest of the associated text does match up with the citation and the added note in the lede came paired with the change from 'immigrants' to 'migrants' which is less confusing since while they were indeed immigrating, they were also emigrating, so neither warrants a full revert. Kensai97 (talk) 19:07, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Photo of Jeanie Johnston seems inappropriate

Considering that the very caption makes it clear that Jeanie Johnston was not, in fact, a coffin ship, it seems inappropriate to head the article with it. Should it be replaced or removed? Klipty (talk) 09:45, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]