Talk:Coercive monopoly/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.

This archive page covers approximately the dates between 2005-02-02 and 2005-10-13.

Post replies to the Talk:Coercive monopoly, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.

Please add new archivals to Talk:Coercive monopoly/archive02. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 16:34, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

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Purpose of this article as distinct from government-granted monopoly?

What is the informative purpose of this article as distinct from government-granted monopoly?

Virtually all forms of coercive monopoly studied by economists are government-granted monopolies, and the majority of the text here is rehashing the discussion of government-granted monopoly elsewhere. You could make a case that it's possible for economically interesting coercive monopolies to exist without being government-granted monopolies (e.g., Mafia rackets), but most of the article is not about that.

Is there some reason to keep the information duplicated and balkanized like this? If not, I'd advise that we move about 2/3 of this article to the article on government-granted monopoly, integrate it with the existing text there, and have coercive monopoly stand as a page to (1) define a coercive monopoly generally, (2) link to government-granted monopoly as one of the most important types of coercive monopoly, (3) mention that there are a limited number of non-government-granted coercive monopolies, and possibly (4) talk a bit about the distinction between natural and coercive monopolies in broad outline.

Does this sound like a plan? Let me know what y'all think. Radgeek 07:21, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It's ok for some things to be "rehashed" on different articles, especially, when it's the wording isn't exactly the same. A coercive monopoly would include not only government-granted monopoly, but also government monopoly. Some would say some completely private situations are coercive monopolies too ...and example of that might be Microsoft..it's an arguable point especially given that a judge said they engaged in anticompetitive behavior. Free market advocates would say that the behavior wasn't anticompetitive but highly competitive. Feel free to modify this article or add to it, but as far as the content that's already in it, I feel pretty much everything there now is essential. I would put the content back in if it was deleted. RJII 18:05, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Articles for Deletion debate

This article survived an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. -Splash^talk 01:27, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Rewrite

One conclusion from the AfD debate was to rewrite the article to clarify usage. I have done so, based on the external sources provided (those that were relevant; those that weren't I removed). I removed the mention of rackets, as the external sources may clear that this is usually excluded (probably always, but I've hedged my bets with a brief mention). I have removed the discussion of monopoly types, which unnecessarily duplicated the relevant articles, as well as the discussion of government legitimacy. This should take place elsewhere, not on an article on a term as obscure as this is. If anyone wants to move that discussion somewhere more helpful, the previous version can be found here. Rd232 11:54, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for dumbing down the article. It much more informative before your so-called "rewrite." Reverting back to previous version. RJII 13:21, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I've raised an RFC to see whether others agree that this is "dumbing down". Rd232 15:42, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

You've deleted everything in the article that took a lot of effort from various people to create and replaced it with a couple quoted definitions. I don't want to call it vandalism, but it's close. RJII 15:50, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Absurd. The definition in your version is wrong, as I showed on the basis of quotes from the existing external links alone. Duplication of monopoly types discussion serves no purpose I can see - there are separate articles for that. (If necessary, move material there.) And as I said, the general discussion under Political Debates does not, I believe, belong here - and I have problems with its style (and lack of sourcing) as well; it reads too much like personal essay. Furthermore, the "a lot of effort" point is an example of the sunk cost fallacy - when you're in a hole, you stop digging; you don't say "well we've come this far - China can't be far off". Rd232 20:59, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Concur with Absurd. It's better to start with Rd232's version, and add back the few points which are (1) accurate, (2) NPOV, and (3) not better stated and left in the other articles. (For what it's worth, I consider myself a Libertarian, although not an Objectivist.) As for my comment about it being a neologism in the AfD -- the definition as a alias for government monopoly, including government-granted monopoly is standard. The one proposed by RJII is a neologism, as far as I can tell, even if an old one. -- Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:33, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

The proposed defition from R2d2 is wrong. A coercive monopoly is not defined as a government-monopoly or government-granted monopoly. What you see from the theorists is the opinion that coercive monopoly can only arise out of government intervention. It is not defined as a monopoly being maintained by government intervention. A coercive monopoly is a monopoly immune from the law of supply and demand. So, the definition that's there now is not precise, but it's very wrong to say that coercive monopoly is defined as government-assisted monopoly. That's not the case. RJII 17:40, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Cite? You hadn't given one in your references, as far as I can tell. And -- I can't rewrite it without it appearing to be a reversion, so I'll add what I believe to be the correct NPOV tag. It would be vandalism to remove it, until a concensus is obtained. Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:49, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

R2d2 provided citations. But, he's misinterpreting them. Look how Greenpan defines it, for example. I just modified the definition. RJII 17:55, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

What part of this, from Nathaniel Branden, am I misinterpreting? "When people speak in an economic or political context, of the dangers and evils of monopoly, what they mean is a coercive monopoly—that is; exclusive control of a given field of production which is closed to and exempt from competition, so that those controlling the field are able to set arbitrary production policies and charge arbitrary prices, independent of the market, immune from the law of supply and demand. Such a monopoly, it is important to note, entails more than the absence of competition; it entails the impossibility of competition. [my emphasis] That is a coercive monopoly’s characteristic attribute-and is essential to any condemnation of such a monopoly. In the whole history of capitalism, no one has been able to establish a coercive monopoly by means of competition on a free market. There is only one way to forbid entry into a given field of production: by law. Every single coercive monopoly that exists or ever has existed—in the United States, in Europe or anywhere else in the world—was created and made possible only by an act of government: by special franchises, licenses, subsidies, by legislative actions which granted special privileges (not obtainable on a free market) to a man or a group of men, and forbade all others to enter that particular field." [1] Rd232 18:06, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Incidentally, the phrasing of Greenspan as quoted in my version looks like it's inspired by part of Branden's wording above. Rd232 18:06, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, look at Branden's definition. It's a firm that it immune from competition. Then he goes on to make the assertion that the only way that is possible is through government intervention. RJII 18:07, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

And on what basis do you reject that assertion? Rd232 18:21, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean? I'm not rejecting or accepting that assertion. Certainly there are plenty of individuals who would reject it. RJII 18:47, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

It's hard not see your claim that you're "not rejecting or accepting that assertion" as disengenuous. In any case, if "there are plenty of individuals who would reject it" it will be easy for you to demonstrate a good reason for rejecting it. Rd232 22:47, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

You're missing the point, Rd232. In the passage you quote Branden very clearly defines "coercive monopoly" in terms of an economic characteristic (immunity from ordinary considerations of supply and demand due to the impossibility of competition). He then, separately, asserts that the only thing that can cause a coercive monopoly is government intervention. If you could demonstrate that a particular monopoly derives from means other than government intervention but is still maintained by a prohibition on competition, then you would have succeeded in showing that there is something meeting the definition of a "coercive monopoly" but not arising from government force. Some might point to, for example, mob rackets in the construction business or particular parts of the drug trade as historical examples of non-governmental coercive monopolies that Branden has overlooked. And you don't even have to agree to those concrete historical examples to recognize the possibility in principle. —Radgeek 19:15, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I have three problems with this argument. (i) we have found no sources for somebody outside Wikipedia arguing it. It is in danger of looking like original research. (ii) we have fetishised a few quotes as a "definition" and excluded everything else our source authors say about the concept. (iii) focussing on the supposed definition, it follows from logic alone that a coercive monopoly requires government backing: the only way a company can be immune from market forces is if its income is independent of its market, i.e. if it can rely on government powers of taxation. No private company can conceivably be independent of market forces - why is this controversial? Rd232 21:15, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Agree with Absurd. Start with Rd232's version, then add statements which are (1) verifiable through credible published sources, (2) NPOV, and (3) relevant to this specific article. Frankly, if I'd know about the vote for deletion, I'd have voted to simply redirect this to Government-granted_monopoly. -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 14:15, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Since some people have remarked on my comments page due to my earlier comments, I'd like to mention that I now no longer stand by what I said. There are some good reasons to edit this article--after reviewing the uses of the terms that I could find I think it's probably right to say that the term is mostly limited to libertarian economists and theorists, but quite mistaken to dismiss it as neologism and absolutely wrong to identify it exclusively with Objectivism--but there are not good reasons to redirect it to government-granted monopoly, because coercive monopolies (as the term is standardly used by libertarian economists) and government-granted monopolies are two different things; specifically, the latter is a proper subset of the former. Government-granted monopolies don't even cover the whole field of de jure monopolies (which include both monopolies granted to private agencies through licenses and franchises, and also government monopolies created through nationalization or exclusive authority given to government agencies). --Radgeek 19:15, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

That is an excellent point, and I have since changed my mind, as well: I would now use coercive monopoly as a disambiguation page (as mentioned below, currently under the heading "Reliable published sources"), and redirect it to (among other things) coercive monopoly (economic). Then, on that page, there would be a concise definition followed by links to specific examples, such as government-granted monopoly and black market. -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 19:28, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Radgeek, thanks for intervening. Here is the definition I'm proposing: "In economics, a coercive monopoly is a form of monopoly that is immune to competition, due to barriers to entry. As such, it is able to raise prices to any level preferable without provoking the appearance of competition. It is distinguished from a de facto (or "non-coercive") monopoly, which enjoys no such insulation from competitive forces." That sums it up doesn't it? I disagree with the previous definition I supported which said it had to be the result of literal coercion; they don't define it that way. We can see that claimed coercive monopolies don't have to be the result of literal coercion, since subsidies are claimed to contribute. Even Microsoft is claimed to be one, with Judge Jackson saying that the contracts the engaged in amounted to coercion. Like you said, Rd232 is missing the point. The laissez-faire advocates are making an argument, not a definition. RJII 19:31, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

We need a way to include the definition I believe to be correct, as from Rd232, either in place of, or in addition to, that of RJII. (OOPS, forgot to sign.) I cannot edit it without violating the rules on revert wars, because I would keep Rd232's version, and add a couple of paragraphs and a couple of links to paragraphs in other articles. Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:00, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't dispute that the definition that you're contesting is incorrect. I think it is incorrect. But, so is the definition R2d2 proposed. I have inserted a more correct definition. This is the way you fix an article. You edit. You don't wipe the whole thing out. RJII 18:04, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

It's worse. Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:10, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Sigh. Lawrence Kudlow (whoever he is), in the article RJII cites, apparently does not know what a monopoly is, never mind a "coercive monopoly". He writes "coercive monopoly, i.e., one that price-gouges consumers by deliberately curtailing production", when it is basic economics that a monopoly is able to raise prices by curtailing production (and that it will be in its interests to do so). Kudlow fails Economics 101, so if it's that the best you've got, give up now. Rd232 18:15, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Wow, you really are out of the loop aren't you? Kudlow is a well-known economist. Apparently you don't keep up with the stock market or you'd see him frequently on CNBC. RJII 18:19, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

What's more, Microsoft products are easy to use, reliable, flexible, adaptable and available to everybody. He obviously hasn't used them. (In other words, whether or not he's a reputable economist, his article has factual errors.) Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:44, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, looking at it again, he's probably just using it in a loose adjectival sense, i.e. meaning "a monopoly which is exercising its power over consumers to an extent that is socially deemed reprehensible", rather than in the technical sense which this article relates to. Clearly, exercising market power cannot be considered coercion in a sense relevant here (rackets). Rd232 18:36, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I thought he rang a vague bell. No wonder I don't watch CNBC when Lawrence Kudlow is on it. Rd232 18:39, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

He's using it in the dynamic sense. That is, what a firm does, or would be expected to due, if it was immune from market forces --if it was a coercive monopoly. RJII 19:29, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

"a coercive monopoly, i.e., one that price-gouges consumers by deliberately curtailing production." - this monopoly, hypothetical or otherwise, is not immune from market forces - otherwise it wouldn't need to curtail production to increase price. The only way a company can be immune from market forces is if its income is independent of its market, i.e. if it can rely on government powers of taxation. QED. Rd232 23:16, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

By market forces, I mean competitive forces. The firm can raise prices without worrying about competition coming into meet the need for lower prices. To raise prices all it has to do is lower production. RJII 13:56, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

A restatement of what a monopoly can do does not address the following: "The only way a company can be immune from market forces is if its income is independent of its market, i.e. if it can rely on government powers of taxation." Since this is the key part of Branden, Rand's and Greenspan's definition (my words, but an accurate restatement), please address it or concede the argument. Rd232 14:19, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

That is an argument, not a definition. Branden clearly defines coercive monopoly: "When people speak in an economic or political context, of the dangers and evils of monopoly, what they mean is a coercive monopoly—that is; exclusive control of a given field of production which is closed to and exempt from competition, so that those controlling the field are able to set arbitrary production policies and charge arbitrary prices, independent of the market, immune from the law of supply and demand. Such a monopoly, it is important to note, entails more than the absence of competition; it entails the impossibility of competition. That is a coercive monopoly’s characteristic attribute-and is essential to any condemnation of such a monopoly." RJII 14:38, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe this quote from Rand will help in understanding: "The alleged purpose of the Antitrust laws was to protect competition; that purpose was based on the socialistic fallacy that a free, unregulated market will inevitably lead to the establishment of coercive monopolies." As you can see, she does not define a coercive monopoly as being government-granted. It's merely the opinion of these individuals that a coercive monopoly is only possible through government intervention. Others would disagree. RJII 18:13, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Source? Context? (I can imagine "inevitably lead" could include the creation of government monopolies due to the negative social effects of an unconstrained free market.) Explanation over Branden, who clearly says the opposite of the above contextless quote? Rd232 18:32, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Are you accusing Rand of being a mainstream economist? Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:20, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Rand is extremely mainstream. RJII 18:22, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

POV, and IMHO, wrong. Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:24, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

"Some reject this definition, and define a coercive monopoly as one caused by government intervention." Got a source for this? RJII 18:28, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

You gave the sources. Whether or not you understand them, is another matter. Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:32, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

You've misread Greenspan. Greenspan defines coercive monopoly as : "a business concern that can set its prices and production policies independent of the market, with immunity from competition, from the law of supply and demand." Then he goes on to opine that this can only be accomplished through government intervention. That assertion of how he believes a coercive monopoly comes about is not his definition of coercive monopoly. RJII 18:40, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

(Last comment for a few hours.) You've misread Greenspan. However, Younkins is quite clear that he defines coercive monopoly as one caused by government or quasi-government action. Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:56, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

You're making the same mistake I and others made when writing this article. A coercive monopoly doesn't necessarily have to engage in coercion. The confusion is understandable. RJII 19:01, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

"A coercive monopoly doesn't necessarily have to engage in coercion." - If you're going to make statements as gnomic as that, please explain them. Rd232 23:05, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, coercion is the initiation of force against others. Just because a firm has the ability to set prices in isolation from market forces doesn't mean it's engaging in coercion. Maybe some see price-gouging that would take place in such a situation as coercion. RJII 00:28, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

"Maybe some see...", "plenty of individuals who", "It seems common sense". This looks increasingly desperate. Rd232 07:43, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm just speculating on why it's called a coercive monopoly. Your guess is as good as mine. Don't expect me to have all the answers. I probably would have named it "anti-competitive monopoly." RJII 14:00, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Younkins says that "a coercive monopoly cannot be established in a free economy..." He's not defining but arguing, since others argue that a coercive monopoly (others who, by the way, do not use the term "coercive monopoly" but use the term "natural monopoly" for example) is possible in an unregulated economy. RJII 19:36, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

"others ... who ... do not use the term 'coercive monopoly' but use the term 'natural monopoly' for example [argue that a coercive monopoly] is possible in an unregulated economy." I wish I could remember the HTML for that really annoying thing that makes glowing yellow ants appear around text. As it is, I'll make do with bold. Rd232 23:05, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Someone accidentally removed the NPOV template from the article, so I've restored it. I do hope that when people cool off they can find a way to discuss their edits and reach some consesus. I'll be back to check on that, and help if I can, probably Sunday. -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 00:19, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL

I think I'm going to hold off on further comments for a few hours. I'm not sure I can say anything more without violating WP:CIVIL, but RJII has already gone over the line by referring to Rd232 as R2d2. Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:32, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Good idea. The definition of coercive monopoly cannot be understood in such an emotional state. RJII 18:41, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Rewrote intro

I rewrote the intro to accord with the common definition. I was wrong about the previous definition, and I hope others, including Rd, can see that Rd's proposed definition was wrong as well. RJII 20:34, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Given what has been said, you really need to present (solid, concrete, externally sourced) evidence that rackets fall under the definition of "coercive monopoly". Also, I'd like you to explain how renaming the section of monopoly types to "Artificial methods of ensuring coercive monopoly" helps address my concern that the entire section is unnecessary duplication of other articles (government monopoly, etc)? In your answer you might like to address what exactly would be a "natural method of ensuring coercive monopoly". Incidentally, whilst I'm pleased at your removal of the reference to coercive monopoly from natural monopoly, in the context of this discussion it only confuses me further as to what your position is.Rd232 22:43, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't care whether "rackets" is in there or not. It seems common sense though, that that would be a coercive monopoly. It's just that the firm itself would be doing what the government would be doing to protect its coercive monopoly status. RJII 00:06, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Given the paragraph I cited from Branden above (three sections up), I'm struggling to figure out how the following addition to the intro can be characterised as anything other than misleading about Branden's views: "Some, such as Alan Greenspan, assert that a coercive monopoly would not be possible without government intervention causing it. Some, such as Nathaniel Branden, assert that there has never been a coercive monopoly that has existed without being maintained by government intervention." (Article version, for context.) Branden clearly said "There is only one way to forbid entry into a given field of production: by law." Rd232 22:54, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Branden is not defining coercive monopoly there. He is stating his thesis that he's arguing --that a coercive monopoly can only come about through government intervention. Think about it. What would be the point of these people trying to drive the point that coercive monopoly can only come about through government intervention if it was not theoretically possible for it occur without it. It's argumentation. What a coercive monopoly *is* and how it may come about are two different things. Branden, Rand, Greenspan, and several others, are essentially arguing against the idea of natural monopoly --that idea that a meaningful monopoly can arise naturally --without artificial means (government intervention). RJII 23:13, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Branden, Rand, Greenspan, and several others, are essentially arguing against the idea of natural monopoly --that idea that a meaningful monopoly can arise naturally --without artificial means (government intervention). No, they are not arguing against the idea of natural monopoly, that's your speciality. And if they did argue that a "meaningful monopoly" can only arise through government intervention (they do not, at least not in the sections cited, where they merely argue that government monopoly is bad), how would that help you in your claim that coercive monopoly is not just a synonym for government monopoly? Rd232 07:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Greenspan says that a coercive monopoly can arise due to subsidization doesn't he? That's not a goverment monopoly. I can't believe you're still not grasping this stuff. I saw the information, saw my error, quickly comprehended the new information, and adjusted the article. You're still in a fog. RJII 13:33, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Your stubbornness has yet to outweigh my patience, but keep trying. "Without government assistance, it is impossible for a would-be monopolist to set and maintain his prices and production policies independent of the rest of the economy." (Greenspan, again) A monopoly achieved in the way you suggest (subsidy alone) is a government monopoly. Rd232 14:03, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

No, a coercive monopoly maintained by subsidies is not a government monopoly and it's not a government-granted monopoly. These forbid competition by law. A private company that is a coercive monopoly due to subsidization isn't being protected by a law against competition. It's protected by subsidization. And, it's most likely not being protected from competition intentionally, but such immunity is merely a side-effect of subsidization. These doesnt fall under the definition of government monopoly or government-granted monopoly. Again, you have to see that these are opinions on how coercive monopolies arise, rather than definitions of coercive monopoly. RJII 14:11, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

a "monopoly maintained by [government] subsidies is not a government monopoly". I wish I had an answer to such brazen sophistry; but at least the revelation that black=white will come in handy at chess. Rd232 14:27, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

A "government monopoly" is protect by law against competition. A government-granted monopoly is protected by law against competition. A monopoly that exists due to government subsidies, rather than a law against competition, does not fall under the definition of government monopoly nor government-granted monopoly. Understand? RJII 14:43, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Branden, like Greenspan, got his ideas on this from Rand (actually I can't say that with certainty --it could be the other way around. Greenspan worked with Rand ..the ideas could have been developed mutually). This quote from Rand shows that she doesn't define coercive monopoly as government-granted monopoly. Rather, she argues, that it can only come about through government intervention: "The alleged purpose of the Antitrust laws was to protect competition; that purpose was based on the socialistic fallacy that a free, unregulated market will inevitably lead to the establishment of coercive monopolies. But, in fact, no coercive monopoly has ever been or ever can be established by means of free trade on a free market. Every coercive monopoly was created by government intervention into the economy: by special privileges, such as franchises or subsidies, which closed the entry of competitors into a given field, by legislative action...The Antitrust laws were the classic example of a moral inversion prevalent in the history: an example of the victims, the businessmen, taking the blame for the evils caused by government, and the government using its own guilt as a justification for acquiring wider powers, on the pretext of "correcting" the evils." RJII 23:19, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

More Rand: "Every coercive monopoly was created by government intervention into the economy: by special privileges, such as franchises or subsidies, which closed the entry of competitors into a given field, by legislative action." Isn't it obvious here that she is not defining coercive monopoly but putting forth an argumentative thesis? RJII 01:06, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

"no coercive monopoly has ever been or ever can be established by means of free trade on a free market." clearly arises from her definition of coercive monopoly, which is clearly the same as Branden's and Greenspan's. (Thank you for confirming that.) Rd232 07:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

If you can't see the difference between a definition and an argument I don't know what to tell you. I'm becoming quickly convinced that this level of conceptualization is over your head. RJII 13:33, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I reworked the rest of the article to accord with the corrected definition. One paragraph was too far out of whack to be salvagable so I had to delete it. RJII 02:20, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Leaving aside the issue of just who's having trouble grasping what, would you please, in addition to other questions addressed to you on this page, explain why your assertion that three respectable individuals thoughts on coercive monopoly should be overridden by nothing other than your views? I have already shown that what you term the "argument" of how coercive monopoly arises flows directly from its definition. It is not an independent assertion. Rd232 14:03, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

But it is an independent assertion. The clearly define their terms, then move on to argumentation. Greenspan: "A coercive monopoly is a business concern that can set its prices and production policies independent of the market, with immunity from competition, from the law of supply and demand." These laissez-faire advocates are trying to show that contrary to popular believe, such a monopoly cannot result from a lack of regulation, but because of regulation. It's an argument. RJII 14:23, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I am not an expert but I am pretty impartial to the arguement and I'm inclined to support RJII. Maybe an analogy will support me. Aluminium could be defined as 'a light alloy of atomic weight x, that has this, that, and the other properties'. The fact that it is obtained by refining bauxite is true but doesn't enter the definition of what aluminium actually is. The same would seem to be the case here - coercive monopolies may (or may not) only arise through government action but that doesn't define what coercive monopolies are. Slinky Puppet 14:55, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for pitching in. (I'm going to assume that the voice that wonders, given your username, number of contributions, similar line of thought and similar type of spelling mistake as RJII makes, whether you're a sock puppet, is wrong.) The aluminium is simply a bad analogy, IMHO. For one thing, aluminium is not a theoretical concept - definitional issues do not arise in the same way. For another, it is quite easy to conceive of raw materials from which aluminium can be derived which are not bauxite; some of these exist in nature (eg alunite) and others do not. However, it is not possible to conceive of a monopoly which is "immune from competition" without government support. Therefore, if you define a coercive monopoly as one that is "immune from competition", then it is an intrinsic part of the concept that it involves government support, not some incidental addition resting on empirical evidence. If you take the time to read Branden [2], this is very clear. Rd232 16:53, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

That's exactly the point that Branden is trying to make --that it's hard to imagine a persistent situation where there is no competition without government intervention causing that situation. But, he's not defining it as a government-enforced monopoly. In fact, he says that when people use the term "monopoly" they actually mean "coercive monopoly" --that is, it's not a new concept, but a term to label to dilineate a situation where there is not a real possibility of competition, from a situation where competition is possible. He says "When "people speak in an economic or political context, of the dangers and evils of monopoly, what they mean is a coercive monopoly." For example, most people think that Microsoft had a coercive monopoly. Most of them may not use the term "coercive monopoly" but they think they were anti-competitive --they set up a situation where competition was not possible. The thesis of the laissez-fair advocates would be that competition with Microsoft was indeed possible. And, that it makes no sense to say competition was not possible since, in their opinion, governmental coercion was not being used. RJII 17:13, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

By the way, you're correct to assume that "SlinkyPuppet" is not me in disguise. RJII 17:19, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

(returning to the left)

'similar line of thought' - I'm agreeing. My line of thought would be similar.
'similar type of spelling mistake' - I'm very sorry for spelling argument as arguement.
'number of contributions' - I have been a 'lurker' for sometime but I do not edit for the sake of it and I don't pitch in all over the place without thinking first. I've spent a lot of time trying to understand the guidelines and NPOV so that my contributions may be more useful and I'm currently writing some articles off-line. However, I will not contribute further to this topic. I was only trying to help and to be accused of not being myself after a single post, simply because I didn't support you in this one area, is hurtful and unnecessary. If my argument is weak then refute it with reasoning. If you wish to drive people away from wikipedia you are going about it the right way. Slinky Puppet 09:21, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Well I'm sorry if you're offended; I listed the four things (three you mention above plus your username) to point out why the thought crossed my mind (they were not intended to be criticisms). I did say (albeit in a convoluted way) that I was assuming this was not the case, and then responded on that basis. Again, sorry - no-one's trying to drive any constructive contributors away. You're probably better off not responding to this topic any further anyway; it's kind of a black pit of timewasting and unconstructive argument. Good luck with the articles you're writing. Rd232 10:53, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I appreciate your contribution. You just pointed out that you can see the difference between defining a coercive monopoly and arguing how it can come about. Rd232 here has shielded himself from the light of reason, and yes, his accusal of you as a "sock puppet" is contemptible and characteristic of my experiences with him on Wikipedia. RJII 22:55, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I point out only for others (RJII never listens to a word I say) - I did not "accuse" SlinkyPuppet of being a sock puppet: I mentioned the possibility in an aside (with reasons), then proceeded on the basis that he was not. When he was offended by that aside, I apologised here and on his userpage. There's much I could say about RJII's behaviour, but I think it speaks for itself. Rd232 08:38, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

OK. Sorry - I overreacted a little there. It's probably best if we all just wipe the slate clean and start again :)<\br> Given the attention this page seems to have received over the last day or so this is probably superfluous - but I thought I would add it anyway. I think that the "Rd232 definition" may be a logical fallacy of the form Argument from ignorance. The fact that the experts have not found an example of a non-governmental coercive monopoly (yet), or can not conceive of such a situation, does not prove that such a situation can not occur. The article should certainly point out that all analysis to date strongly suggests that coercive monopolies need governments but I don't think it should be in the definition. Slinky Puppet 13:34, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, we started off on the wrong foot, so let's wipe the slate clean and write constructive things on it. :) To avoid complicating the discussion flow further, I started a new section. Rd232 16:04, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

You're on the right theoretical track. But, "experts" have at various times in history have found examples of coercive monopoly that were not caused by government intervention. Alcoa was one; Microsoft is a recent one [http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=20654] They break these up with anti-trust. At least they allege that they're coercive monopolies. Whether they're truly are coercive monopolies is where the POV comes in. RJII 06:38, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Microsoft

Here is a reference to Microsoft as a coercive monopoly: "Raymond suggests Microsoft is covering its tracks in lieu of "a fast exit out of the packaged-software business, a lock on your critical data and network services, and an indefinite extension of the coercive monopoly position." [3]

From the same guy: "The thing a lot of people somehow missed is that the courts affirmed the findings of fact – that Microsoft is indeed a coercive monopoly," [4] RJII 02:47, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Ah, United States v. Microsoft. I see you added your coercive monopoly idea to that article too (diff). Rd232 07:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

So essentially you're relying on Eric S. Raymond's characterisation of Microsoft (and of Jackson's findings against it). No disrespect to Raymond, but excuse me for suggesting that given his views, this characterisation is not a credible source for defining what a "coercive monopoly" is. Rd232 07:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I just looked him up. Apparently he is a notable individual. His opinion that MSFT is a coercive monopoly is therefore notable. Besides, all he's dong is relaying the Judge's findings. Judge Jackson found that they were a coercive monopoly. RJII 19:34, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

You know he's notable from the fact that he has a Wikipedia article, which I wikilinked above for you. He is strongly anti-Microsoft, which is why I discount his description of it from this debate. It's like saying "does 2+2=4"? I know someone who says it's 5! And they're famous, so this is an opinion that should be taken into account! Rd232 19:45, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Incidentally, from an external link in United States v. Microsoft: "Newsweek manipulatively lumps Microsoft, a dominant free-market company, with government-backed monopolies, such as the Bromkonvention, a German chemical cartel of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, that used government's legalized monopoly on coercion to forcibly dictate prices and obstruct competitors from entering their market."[5] Rd232 07:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I can't believe you don't understand why I provided a quote about Microsoft. My position is not that Microsoft is or was a coercive monopoly. I was simply showing that some think it is. Some think it's not. Judge Jackson apparently thought it was, hence his order for a remedy. My point was to show that a private entity can, theoretically, be a coercive monopoly --if it constructs "barriers of entry" that exclude the possibility of competition. Now there are those who will disagree that it was a coercive monopoly, such as Kudlow (as we see in the attached article), and I think we both know that Greenspan and Rand would disagree as well. But they're not disagreeing because there is no government intervention, they're disagreeing because they think there is the possibility of competition. Their position is that government intervention is the only way to establish a coercive monopoly is not a defintion of coercive monopoly --it's their opinion of how a coercive monopoly is established. Again, what a coercive monopoly *is* and how it may be established are two different issues. All these people provide a clear definition of coercive monopoly, but you want to attach their arguments that government-intervention is responsible to the definition. Not only is it a misunderstanding on your part, it would be POV to assert that in the article. RJII 13:24, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

The point about Microsoft is that you're relying on Raymond for the characterisation as "coercive monopoly", who've I argued is not a credible source in this theoretical debate. The rest of what you say is refuted by discussion we've already had; I will refrain from repeating myself. (And I say refuted, not rejected.) Rd232 14:03, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I didn't provide Raymond as a source inasmuch as just a tool for you to grasp what is meant by coercive monopoly. It just means a firm that enjoys immunity from competition, however that immunity is established. By the way, the quote above you provided indicates that the writer belives that Newsweek thinks Microsoft was a coercive monopoly. RJII 14:15, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

The term "coercive monopoly" does not appear in the article. Rd232 14:27, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

"I didn't provide Raymond as a source inasmuch as just a tool for you to grasp what is meant by coercive monopoly." If this makes some sense that rises above its internal contradiction, I'm not aware of it. Rd232 14:27, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

One doesn't have to call Microsoft a coercive monopoly to believe it a coercive monopoly. If you think Microsoft was able to eliminate the possibility of competititon, then you think Microsoft was a coercive monopoly. RJII 14:33, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

If you could explain how any private company could ever "eliminate the possibility of competition" without government backing, that would be helpful. Rd232 17:00, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

It would be helpful to me as well. Maybe you could look at Judge Jackson's explanation. RJII 17:21, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Also, it's not difficult to find sources that claim Microsoft engaged in "coercion" to prevent competition. If Microsoft was a monopoly and engaged in coercion, then it would literally be a "coercive monopoly." The argument from the laissez-faire side is that Microsoft did not engage in coercion --there was still the opportunity for competition. RJII 18:18, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

For example from the Proposed Finding of Fact from the case: "Microsoft's coercion of Apple to agree to exclusionary restrictions lacks justification." [6]

Oh for the love of God. Microsoft is not a monopoly. Therefore it is not a coercive monopoly. Rd232 19:45, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I am not arguing that MSFT is a monopoly. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. The fact is, however, that many do believe MSFT was a monopoly. Those "many" include MSFT's competitors and Judge Penfield Jackson. RJII 19:52, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Let's get back to the theory at issue. It is a theoretical term. (Or if you wish to persist, provide sources as to MS being a "coercive monopoly", other than Raymond whose value as a source we disagree about.) Rd232 22:53, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Summarising the issue

In an effort to avoid this getting completely bogged down, and make it feasible for others to see what's going on, let's try and recap.

1. Definition. The key phrase in the usual definitions identified in the discussion (Branden, Rand, Greenspan) is that a coercive monopoly is "independent of the market, immune from the law of supply and demand.". A normal monopoly has a substantial degree of market power - depending on the scale and scope of its monopoly - but is far from "immune" to supply and demand. The only thing that can allow a firm to be "immune" to supply and demand is to have a source of income independent of the market it supplies. This implies government support, through taxation, or through guaranteeing there will be no competition. This is a conclusion that follows from the definition. (Any counterclaim that does not include a specfic counterexample for how a firm can be "immune" to supply and demand without government backing is worthless. I say this because totally vague and unsupported assertions have been made on this crucial point several times.) Rd232 21:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
2. Usage. Some people of a certain political perspective describe the above as "coercive monopoly", because of their emphasis on the fact that every act of government is ultimately backed up by a threat of coercion in the case of sufficient non-compliance with the state. The motivation for the term is essentially political (if not polemical), since otherwise "government monopoly" and related, more familiar terms are perfectly sufficient. The reason for describing government monopolies as "coercive monopolies" is to assist in the argument that such monopolies should not be allowed to persist; Branden's polemic (it is that) makes this quite clear.[7] Rd232 21:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
3. Pure coercion. RJII asserts that rackets and the like - monopolies based on violence - are also coercive monopolies. This usage is conceivable but not backed up by any external sources (despite repeated requests). Furthermore it is clearly excluded from the standard definition. Rd232 21:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
4. Other types of coercion. An even looser sense of coercion, yet further from the definition of "coercive monopoly" as a theoretical construct as discussed here, is a looser usage of "coercive monopoly power". This has no clear meaning (there is a wide range of possibilities around the idea of monopoly power and ethics, mostly overlapping with standard monopoly theory), but has popped up in relation to Microsoft. This usage is a red herring; if it were sufficiently attested (which for my money it is not), it would be worth a footnote ("some people also sometimes use ... in a loose sense to mean..."). Rd232 21:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

RJII has, in this version of the article, ended up in a complete mess, with a definition of coercive monopoly that is essentially the same as "monopoly". There are two quotes from his comments which I bolded, in which he demonstrates a clear confusion between natural monopoly and coercive monopoly. One he ignored, the other he went off on a tangent about subsidies and getting his knickers in a complete twist over the definition of government monopoly. He wrote at one point above, rather truthfully, "I'm just speculating on why it's called a coercive monopoly.". We do not need to speculate - we have a clear definition. I remain of the position that this version of mine sums up everything that needs to be said in the article. Rd232 21:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I appreciate the addition of government subsidies as possible government support of a (coercive) monopoly, and it should be mentioned in one of the articles on monopolies. However, I do not see any support of this (third; fourth; ?) definition of coercive monopoly in the quoted articles. There was some support for RJII's previous definition. Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:48, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean by RJII's previous definition? The original version I came in on talked about rackets (without sourcing of any kind) - this is the reason I mention 3. The origin of 4. is RJII's various comments on Microsoft and elsewhere. I support neither of those, not without further sourcing. Rd232 22:42, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I think this needs, at the least, a disambiguation between Rd232's definition and RJII's, and at the most, a short set of definitions with pointers to the other monopoly articles. Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:48, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

RJII's definition, insofar as it differs from 1. above, has no sourcing. 4. might be sourceable, in which case it could be distinguished in a usage footnote as I said; I very much doubt there is anything precise enough obtainable on that subject to be called a definition. Rd232 22:42, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Re: Definition: you claim in several places that the definition of "coercive monopoly" requires government intervention to be involved. But (1) this is not part of the definition you mention above; (2) it is only established by some further argument about possible sources of effective prohibitions on market entry. Now, I think that you are clearly right that the sense of the word prohibition being used is essentially concerned with force: so RJII is very much mistaken to think that when people loosely use the term "coercive practices" to describe what they consider to be shady dealings on Microsoft's part (for example) they are not using the notions of "prohibition" or "coercive" (or, probably, "monopoly" for that matter) in the same sense that this article discusses. The article should not be rewritten to accomodate such usages, since (1) they usually don't coalesce into the term "coercive monopoly" and (2) it's not clear that there is any coherent economic definition underlying them. (A short note about these usages it may be appropriate.) But I think that you are clearly wrong to claim that this means that "government intervention" is part of the meaning of "coercive monopoly"; Branden, Rand, et al. are making a substantive empirical claim about possible sources of the prohibition, and whether you think they are right or wrong the answer is not settled by definition.

Re: Pure coercion: you're right that it's much more common for "coercive monopoly" to be used in describing the practices of government. Since I don't have access at the moment to academic fulltext databases, I'm stuck with what I can get on Google; but for what it's worth, here's an example of the usage that I found through a couple of minutes on Google. (Caveat: this is a political scientist, citing a criminologist; so if you want a citation from someone in economics I'll have to dig more.) Emphasis is mine:

Although the challenge backfired and led to more strenuous efforts by the government--acting under public pressure--to confront the Mafia, the events in Italy illustrated the vulnerability of even advanced industrialised states to the challenges posed by powerful TCOs. Moreover, these challenges to state authority may be unavoidable. As one eminent criminologist has noted,

each crime network attempts to build a coercive monopoly and to implement that system of control through at least two other criminal activities--corruption of public and private officials, and violent terrorism in order to enforce its discipline.33

TCOs, therefore, by their very nature undermine civil society, destabilise domestic politics and undercut the rule of law.

...

33 R. J. Kelly, "Criminal Underworlds: Looking Down on Society from Below" in R. J. Kelly (ed.), Organised Crime: A Global Perspective (Totowa, NJ: Rowman and Littlefield, 1986), pp. 10–31.

— from Phil Williams (1994): Transnational Criminal Organizations and International Security. Survival, Vol. 36, No. 1, Spring 1994, pp. 96–113. Oxford University Press. Reprinted in In Athena's Camp: Preparing for Conflict in the Information Age, 1997, RAND Corporation. (No relation to Ms. Rosenbaum.)

Hope this helps. —Radgeek 20:08, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

That may be a useful source for writing something in the article about the political sense of a coercive monopoly (monopoly on the use of coercion). It is the essence of mafia that they challenge the government's coercive monopoly and try to replace it with their own. This reminds me vaguely of what Mancur Olson said about stationary bandits and the origin of government. Rd232 22:38, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Better summary of the issue

The issue is the definition of coercive monopoly. I offer the following quoted definitions:

Nathaniel Branden: "When people speak in an economic or political context, of the dangers and evils of monopoly, what they mean is a coercive monopoly—that is; exclusive control of a given field of production which is closed to and exempt from competition, so that those controlling the field are able to set arbitrary production policies and charge arbitrary prices, independent of the market, immune from the law of supply and demand. Such a monopoly, it is important to note, entails more than the absence of competition; it entails the impossibility of competition. That is a coercive monopoly’s characteristic attribute-and is essential to any condemnation of such a monopoly."

Branden notes here that coercive monopoly does not label a new or obscure concept. He says that what "coercive monopoly" refers to is what people normally are referring to when they speak critically of monopolies. They are referring to a firm that has "exclusive control of a given field of production which is closed to and exempt from competition..." And, he goes on to mention that when they are exempt from competition they are free to set prices "immune from the law of supply and demand." What is meant by this, in context, is that since there are no competitors to deal with, they are the sole determiners of supply, and, the consumer either has to take that price or go without --there are no alternatives for the consumer. Again, as Branden points out, the term "coercive monopoly" is just another word for "monopoly" in the way people normally conceive of the term.

Here's the right end of the stick: "When people speak in an economic or political context, of the dangers and evils of monopoly, what they mean is a coercive monopoly". Rd232 16:22, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Exactly, a coercive monopoly is what people have in mind when they want anti-trust to get involved. RJII 18:30, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Alan Greenspan: "A "coercive monopoly" is a business concern that can set its prices and production policies independent of the market, with immunity from competition, from the law of supply and demand. An economy dominated by such monopolies would be rigid and stagnant. The necessary precondition of a coercive monopoly is closed entry -- the barring of all competing producers from a given field."

Greenspan says essentially the same thing. A coercive monopoly occurs when a firm is safe from competition. After the definition, like Branden, he goes on to state what he believes is the only way for a coercive monopoly to occur -government intervention. And, he doesn't limit this to coercive intervention but says subsidies are also responsible: "This can be accomplished only by an act of government intervention, in the form of special regulations, subsidies, or franchises."

Yes, different forms of government authority can be used to create monopolies. All monopolies created by government are government monopolies. There is no other way for a monopoly to be immune from competition other than by government fiat. Rd232 16:22, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Your POV. Don't assert your and Ayn Rand's POV as if it's the indisputable truth. RJII 18:32, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

It's important to distinguish the difference between definiting coercive monopoly and asserting how it can come about. Branden and Greenspan define coercive monopoly, but the go on to assert what they think to be the only way a coercive monopoly can come about --government intervention. But government intervention is not part of the definition. It's an argument of how a coercive monopoly comes about. If a firm has exclusive control of a given field of production which is closed to and exempt from competition," it is a coercive monopoly regardless of how that came about or how it is maintained. There are individuals that assert that Microsoft, for example, was a coercive monopoly. The Judge in the case even asserted that Microsoft engaged in coercion to maintain a monopoly position. Now, you may ask why would someone use the term "coercive monopoly" if it referred to what people are already referring to when people speak critically of monopoly. The reason why these people go on about "coercive monopoly" is because there is a kind of monopoly they don't oppose --a "non-coercive monopoly." They have no problem with a firm that is the sole producer of a good or service in an environment without competition, as long as competition is possible --as long as competition is not being prevented by government intervention. On the other hand, most people condemn "monopoly" period.

Government intervention is implicit in the definition, because there is no other way for the defined entity to exist. Rd232 16:22, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

That's your POV. Others think that a coercive monopoly can indeed come to be in an unregulated economy. Hence they favor anti-trust laws. RJII 18:30, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

From the above, hopefully you can see that a coercive monopoly is simply a situation where a firm is the exclusive provider of a particular kind of good or service and is safe from competition due to barriers to entry. The advocates of laissez-faire argue the the only cause of barriers to entry is government intervention. Interventionists, such as those who launched a lawsuit against Microsoft, believe that contracts it engaged in were barriers to entry, and "coercive." Hence, the term "coercive" in coercive monopoly does not necessarily refer to literal coercion. As evidence to this, note that Greenspan holds that subsidies can cause coercive monopoly. Finally, witness this quote from Ayn Rand: "Every coercive monopoly was created by government intervention into the economy: by special privileges, such as franchises or subsidies, which closed the entry of competitors into a given field, by legislative action." Anyone with sense can see that she not defining coercive monopoly but making a claim of how she believes is the only way one may come about. Like Greenspan's assertion (his essay on this appears in Rand's book Capitalism the Unknown Ideal), Rand is clearly making an argumentative claim, not citing a definition. One can easily see that the statement is a response to claims that coercive monopolies can arise in an unregulated economy. In conclusion, for the definition in this article to be NPOV, it must not define coercive monopoly as resulting from government intervention, lest we bias the article in favor of the laissez-faire school of thought. Even the laissez-fair school does not define coercive monopoly in such a way, but makes a claim in regard to the origin of a coercive monopoly. RJII 00:06, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

The first sentence describes any kind of monopoly, not a coercive monopoly in particular. It goes downhill from there.Rd232 16:22, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

It describes the kind of monopoly people have in mind when they speak of "the dangers and evils of monopoly" --the kind they want broken up. In other words, that's the definition of a coercive monopoly. RJII 18:45, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Reply

If I ever write something as incoherent and irrelevant as the above, please shoot me. I'm sorry, I simply cannot reply to such nonsense, which so ignores everything that I have carefully laid out, without spattering it liberally with a great deal of insult. I will try again later. And the cheek to head a pointless re-assertion of your confused and self-contradictory position on one nitpicking aspect you've created out of thin air (that irrelevant dichotomy between definition and assertion) as "Better summary of the issue"! After all the effort I have put into trying to debate reasonably with you, I am literally trembling with anger here. Rd232 06:35, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Pity you. RJII 13:26, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

And, let me point out to everyone that the above user "Rd232" tried to have this article deleted through a vote and was unsuccessful. He has no authentic interest in the quality of this article. His whole intent is to get rid of it, and since he hasn't been able to do that so far, he obviously wants to minimize it to irrelevance. He won't be successful. RJII 13:26, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I put it up for deletion on the strength of the article and the information I could find. The AfD produced some additional information, which with subsequent discussion shows that it does deserve a short entry. I changed my mind based on evidence - you might try it some time. I developed said short entry based on the available information, and ever since RJII has waffled contradictorily around the subject without adducing additional evidence to support his views. As for "minimizing to irrelevance", this is absurd. An entry that is short and to the point is far better than one that is long, vague, and fully of unsourced personal opinion around related topics. Rd232 16:22, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

You came to admit in your vote for deletion that you hadn't even read the article. If that's not the sign of an incompetent and irresponsible Wikipedian, I don't know what is. This topic of "coercive monopoly" is fresh to you and you're flabbergasted by it, but that's no reason to wipe out the whole article and replace it with a few quotes. Obviously, you act without thinking and reading. RJII 18:35, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Since you will go on about this, I'll clarify. I had read the intro, skimmed the middle bit (lokked like irrelevant and confused guff) and looked at the external links, and skimmed those. I even Googled a bit. I saw nothing to change my opinion that the article was a neologism, and nominated it for AfD. At some point I took the time to read the guff properly, and I found it so bad that I made the remark you refer to ("I hadn't read the article"), because it makes up the bulk of the article. It was an unfortunate phrase, but there's no to repeatedly belabour the point. And oh yes, the AfD produced the Branden source, which is still the best we have on the economic concept of coercive monopoly - so it was hardly a waste of time. You might actually say it's how Wikipedia is supposed to work. (But then you've been here long enough that you should know this.) While we're on the subject, you've also been here long enough to know better than to accuse of me vandalism (in an edit summary) and of bad faith (repeatedly, here and elsewhere). Rd232 22:50, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Reliable published sources

Part of the problem with the POV in this article is that it stems from sources which are not reliable within the context of this article. For example, I have enormous respect for Ayn Rand (she wrote one of my all-time favorite novels), but she's not an economist. Neither is Nathaniel Branden. I often agree with both of them, but remarks from either of them do not constitute a reliable published source for purposes of this article. They aren't experts in the field, and, for the purposes of Wikipedia, their opinions carry no more weight than yours or mine. If editors of this article would stick to the verified statements of economists in reliable published sources, the bulk of the POV dispute would evaporate.
Alternately, if you want to focus on philosophy rather than on economics (as it appears some editors do), then make that explicit. Rd232's version does, and supports its statements with citations, so I am reverting to that. Let's start there, have a verified source for every new statement, and make sure that every new statement is relevant to this article (a great deal of what people have added previously is, at best, only tangentially relevant). -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 14:45, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Reverted back with couple sources linked in the intro, if that's what you like. Deleting a whole article and replacing it with a few quotes is not the way to edit an article. Also, there is no requirement that everything in an article is sourced. It's only necessary that certain things be sourceable, that is, if a source is requested for a statement then it should be obtainable. In addition I'd like to point out the POV statement in the dumbed-down version to which you reverted: "As Branden makes clear, "In the whole history of capitalism, no one has been able to establish a coercive monopoly by means of competition on a free market. There is only one way to forbid entry into a given field of production: by law." Branden's statement that a coercive monopoly can only happen by government intervention is his opinion. Others disagree, for example, the claim that Microsoft was/is a coercive monopoly. It's fine to cite his opinion, but to precede it with something like "As Branden makes clear" is highly POV in favor of the Objectivists and other laissez-faire advocates. RJII 15:56, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

LOL. I think that's first time I've been accused (implied in last sentence) of being biased towards laissez-faire. Rd232 16:39, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Personally, I think the philosophical arguments should be removed entirely. But Rd232's version, at least, makes the disrtinction between the opinions of economists and the opinions of philosophers. -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 16:01, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Good point, I addressed that, by noting the economists and the philosopher (though Greenspan and Branden and Rand's points are pretty much identical).

No, you've simply reverted to "your" version again. Look, RJ: your perspective on this is clearly disputed. It does no one any good for you to keep dumping more and more of your POV into the article. It's counterproductive. For the article to be NPOV, various points of view need to be balanced, and that isn't gojng to happen this century at the rate you are going. Stake a step back, start with a simple, concise definition that everyone can basically agree on, and work from there. You don't like Rd232's definition? Fine: suggest a simple, concise alternative. Then, when you have consensus on that first paragraph or two, move on to the next section. Discuss each new section here, on the Talk page, and then when you have a reasonable consensus, post it to the article. Baby steps. Continually reverting the article to "your" version doesn't accomplish anything: it simply wastes everyone's time (including yours) and forestalls any real discussion. If you want to demonstrate good faith, stop re-posting your disputed version, and reach consensus on your edits before you add them. -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 16:23, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Agreed - I have refrained from editing the article throughout this debate in the hope of reaching some agreement through reasoned debate; otherwise there would have been a pointless edit war. Rd232 16:32, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I've just about giving up debating with you, as it's clear that you have no interest in the quality of this article. You inititially tried to delete the article. I've provided very cogent explanations on why you're understanding is really screwed up. You are not editing or arguing in good faith. RJII 16:53, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

What POV is it you purpor that I have? I'm the only one providing the view of both sides in the article. "You don't like Rd232's definition? Fine: suggest a simple, concise alternative." That's exactly what I've done, and put it in the article. What you and Rd232 are doing is tantamount to vandalism. The way to edit an article is not to wipe it clean. I will continue reverting this article. RJII 16:53, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, if that's your intention, there's certainly nothing I can do to stop you, but if you do persist in reverting the article without coming to a consensus on what you add, Wikipedia does have mechanisms to deal with that. However, it's a huge hassle, so I'd rather not go that route. Will you please reconsider your intention to keep re-adding your POV without reaching consensus on it? -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 17:03, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

What a hypocritical statement. You're also reverting the article without a consensus. There is a lack of consensus either way, in case you haven't noticed. You are reverting the article without a consensus. The longer article was there for many months. Rd232 just created his dumbed down two paragraph version a few days ago. You and Rd232 are in the wrong here. RJII 17:12, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

The point is that my short version focusses on the essence. If we start from that and we can maybe pin that down, and then add back whatever material is necessary. (This is exactly what Bblackmoor suggested earlier.) Note that length is not a virtue in an article, information is - and there was a lot of material which was only tangentially relevant, and/or unsourced. Nor is the length of time that a poor state of affairs has persisted an argument for failing to improve it. Rd232 17:19, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

That is tantamount to vandalism. It's not proper to wipe out a substantial article and start from scratch. If you think certain sentences are wrong, go through it line by line and edit. RJII 17:27, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

It's not proper to repeatedly post an essay on which there clearly is no consensus. Whether you want to contribute to this article or not is up to you, but you aren't going to be permitted to use it as a venue for your original research. That's against Wikipedia policy, and in a case like this where there are people right here asking you to stop doing it, it simply isn't very polite. -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 17:38, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

You are deleting 3/4 of the article without consensus. Cut your "consensus" crap. RJII 17:58, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

On the subject of published sources, if you look at Google Scholar, most use "coercive monopoly" in an entirely different sense, referring to the state's monopoly on the legitimate use of force (coercion) as a "coercive monopoly". A point I made in the AfD debate, AFAIR, but forgot about. Use of "coercive monopoly" in peer-reviewed publications is single-figures, and all are in this sense (which was what led to the AfD nomination in the first place, before finding Branden and Greenspan refs). Rd232 16:39, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

That's an excellent point. Perhaps what this article really ought to be is a disambuguation page, which points to:

• government-granted monopoly
• Weber's Thesis
• ... anything else?

What do folks think about that? -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 16:47, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I think that's going in the right direction. The trouble is disambiguation pages don't normally have the type/quantity of usage information I think is essential. How about making coercive monopoly a disambig between coercive monopoly (economics) and the political meaning. The latter entry would point to Weber's Thesis if there's nothing more appropriate, with a short sentence on the disambig page noting the politics meaning (which I think is fairly uncontroversial so doesn't need sourcing etc). coercive monopoly (economics) would be a short definition of the term - including the links to government-granted monopoly etc which are already there, perhaps made more prominent - based on my version. (Based on - this is Wikipedia after all. :) ) Rd232 17:08, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

That seems reasonable, although it would be nice if RJ would change gears and actually contribute to a mutually-agreebale concise definition. Lacking that, yours seems as good a place as any to start. I don't suggest taking any action, yet, of course: let's give it a few days, and see what other editors have to say. -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 17:38, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Rd232, you still don't get it. Of course a government is a coercive monopoly. And it's meant in the same sense as it's defined by economists --an entity which is blocking out competition. Ayn Rand also refers to government as a coercive monopoly --a coercive monopoly that she supports. A government has a coercive monopoly on coercion (on law enforcement, etc). That's why a government is called a coercive monopoly --not because it's job is to coerce, but because its job of coercion is restricted from competition. RJII 17:06, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

See if these two sources help clarify the political meaning: [8] (PDF) and [9]. There're both reviews of Randy Barnett's book, but quite helpful. (And publically accessible!) Rd232 17:12, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Radical libertarians (anarcho-capitalists) frequently note that government is a coercive monopoly, becuase it doens't allow competition. They advocate replacing governmental functions of protection with private competing businesses. Again, government is a coercive monopoly because it prevents competition in the business of law and order. RJII 17:20, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

RJ, you need to read the Wikipedia policy on original research. Much of what you say might be true, but Wikipedia is not a venue for primary source material. Right now, you are essentially using Wikipedia to write an essay based on your opinions and experience. That's not how Wikipedia works. -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 17:38, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I've done the research. I am not engaging in "original research." If you need sources all you need to do is ask those who have been writing this article. RJII 18:18, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

By the way, if you're thinking I wrote most of this article, you're wrong. It appears most of it was written by a user named "Radgeek." Maybe we can get him in here. RJII 18:22, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I just left a note to him and see you have as well. RJII 18:42, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Three-revert rule

Let's all be aware of the three-revert rule. For myself, I have reverted this page twice today, and that's all I will do in one day (better to be safe than sorry). If you find yourself tempted to revert the page more than twice, that's a good indication that you need to come here to the Talk page and discuss your edits and reach consensus on them before you commit them to the article. We're all grown-ups, and there's no need for this to become an edit war. -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 17:48, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Then stop your edit warring and your hypocrisy. Question and edit like a responsible editor. Don't wipe out a lengthy article in entirety that has been there for nearly a year and replace it with a definition and a few quotes. The topic may be new to you and you don't quite get it, but you and Rd232 are way out of line with this which is tantamount to vandalism. RJII 17:59, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

"Then stop your edit warring and your hypocrisy." How's this for a compromise: I (BBlackmoor), RJII, and Rd232 all agree not to edit the Coercive monopoly article at all for at least a week (until 2005-10-20). In that time, if someone else edits it, we will simply leave it alone (other than actual vandalism, of course -- and paying careful attention to what vandalism is not). In that time, we can, right here on the Talk page, work on a simple, concise draft definition of Coercive monopoly (economic). And of course anyone else who wants to contribute to that discussion would be welcome to do so. Then, when we have a consensus on that concise definition, we can use it to begin the Coercive monopoly (economic) article, and the Coercive monopoly article can become a disambiguation page, as discussed briefly above. What do you say to that? -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 18:12, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

As a reponsible editor, it's my job to make sure the article is continually being improved. I'm not going to let it sit there with bad information. Read my writing under "A better summary" above and tell me if you don't agree with what I've said. RJII 18:27, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

A responsible editor seeks to attain consensus, which is the purpose of my suggestion. You have worked very diligently in opposition to consensus: I was hoping (and I still am) that you will see reason, and start complying with Wikipedia's policies concerning verifiability, consensus, and NPOV. As for what you've written above, some I agree with, and some is simply hogwash. But that's kind of beside the point: what I believe, or you believe, is not the main contention: the article needs to be verifiable and neutral. Right now, it isn't, and a re-write is long overdue (althoguh I can see that people have been recommending one as far back as February).

Repeatedly posting your entire magnum opus over and over again does not do any good for anyone, Wikipedia least of all. This article is never going to be worthwhile as long as you continue to do that. What you need to do is stop, take a breath, and tackle each section of the article with the other editors one section at a time. When you have consensus on a section, then move to the next one.

That's my suggestion, anyway. From what I can tell, your intention is to continue reverting your version of the the article come hell or high water. In the long term, I don't think that's going to be a successful tactic. You are only delaying the inevitable, and causing hard feelings in the interim. That's no good for anyone, including you. I really wish you would reconsider. -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 18:56, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

By the way, agreeing to leave an article unedited for a short time while we reach a consensus is voluntary action. Personally, I prefer voluntary action to involuntary action (such as having an administrator "protecting" a page from all edits, which is sometimes a consequence of edit wars like this one). If we act voluntarily, then we can decide the terms under which we temporarily cease editing, and we can decide when to begin editing again. Surely someone like yourself, who is clearly knowledgeable about the negative consequences of coercive monopolies, would prefer to come to a mutually-agreeable, voluntary solution rather than to suffer under one? -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 19:40, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Don't give me that crap. You have been wiping out 3/4 of the article without a consensus! That's not the way to get a consensus. Discuss first and go through the article as it exists. You are so full of it. RJII 19:44, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

As for the topic being "new" to me, relatively speaking, I suppose it is: I only started reading Mises, Rothbard, and so on in the early 1990s (1992 or so, as I recall). Prior to that I had no real interest in economics. Please don't hold my relative inexperience against me. -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 19:07, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe you didn't realize this and it's just a mistake on your part, but the version you keep reverting to written was by Rd232 just a few days ago. Everything below the Intro of the article was DELETED by him. The version that I'm reverting back to, and editing bit by bit is the lengthy article that has been there for close to a year, which I, Radgeek, and others had been working on. You're coming down on me for not acting with a consensus, but you're deleting 3/4 of an article that had a consensus up until Rd232 wiped most of it out based on his lack of understanding of the term "coercive monopoly." If you want a consensus you should discuss first before you wipe out an article and replace it with couple quotes. Rd232 initially tried to get the whole article deleted by a Vote for Deletion! He doesn't like the article, doesn't want it here, and is doing is best to edit it to the point of irrelevance. RJII 19:56, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

The article as it exists has serious flaws. A re-write is long overdue: starting fresh is, in my opinion, the best way to start. "It's been there for a year" is not a valid reason to leave bad information in place. It would be nice if you would participate in a discussion leading to improvement of this article. It would also be nice if you would focus on the content of the article rather than continue to make ad hominem attacks on anyone who disgarees with you. That is neither civil nor productive. -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 20:54, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Dude, look above. I have been engaging in SUBSTANTIAL discussion. Much more than you have! Your hypocrisy is absolutely startling. And, no, to delete this article entirely and start from scratch is not the way to go. You admitted that "coercive monopoly" was new to you. How would you even know whether the article was correct or not? You are way out of line. Back off. RJII 20:59, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Read what I said again. -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 21:53, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Okay, RJII, you've reverted other people's edits at least five times now. You've been warned (nicely), you refuse to stop, and I'm going to have to report you. You have left no other choice. -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 21:19, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

You've got to be kidding. Do you realize how many times you've reverted things? If you want to battle with me, you've got one. RJII 21:26, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Of course I know: three. And no, I don't want a battle with you. I don't want a battle with anyone: I thought I made that clear. What I want is for everyone to stop acting like five-year-olds, stop calling each other names and making ad hominem attacks, stop reverting each other's edits willy-nilly, dump a year's worth of dubious edits in the trash, and start fresh to make this a useful, interesting, neutral, and verifiable article. Tell you what: I'll give you some time to think about that. Maybe after you cool down, you'll listen to reason. I'll check back in a few days. -- BBlackmoor ^(talk) 21:41, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Good riddance. And, next time try not to respond to an RFC without having some familiarity with the topic. And, don't delete huge portions of an article because you're not familiar with the topic. RJII 22:51, 13 October 2005 (UTC)