Talk:Codfish Island / Whenua Hou

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Requested move 14 May 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Sufficient evidence was provided that the dual name (or at least mentioning both English and Maori names at the same time, or even exclusively the Maori name) is in enough independent use to warrant using this time. (non-admin closure) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 18:45, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

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Codfish Island → Codfish Island / Whenua Hou – In recent sources, the island is almost exclusively referred to with a dual name in some capacity (be that with an unspaced slash, just a space, hyphenated, comma,parentheses and spaced slash, with the order of the names varying. While this makes any form of meta-analysis even more difficult than usual, it should be clear from the outset that the dual name is frequently used, with each component name also used interchangeably with no clear preference of one over the other. As such, the dual name provides the most opportunity for a reader to find the island they are thinking of, whether they know it as the dual name, Codfish Island, or Whenua Hou. Per WP:NZNC guidelines, we should use the spaced slash format and the order as established in the gazetteer, which is what is proposed in this move. Turnagra (talk) 04:56, 14 May 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 05:49, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. The nominator is incorrect with their claim that the island is almost exclusively referred to with a dual name in some capacity; many recent independent and reliable sources use "Codfish Island" (1, 2, 3, 4, 5). Further, ngrams shows that Codfish Island continues to be more popular than any name containing Whenau Hou, and since all forms of the dual name include Whenau Hou that means it remains more popular than the dual name. BilledMammal (talk) 06:01, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

  All forms of the dual name must also include Codfish Island, but I don't see that in your argument. Those same recent independent and reliable sources also use the dual name (1a 1b 1c; 2a 2b 2c; scholarly articles 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12; see also other independent and reliable sources including Stuff (a b c), RNZ (a b c), Newsroom (a b c), the New Zealand Herald (a b c) TVNZ (a b c) and the Guardian (a b c). Turnagra (talk) 06:34, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

  That's a good point. Optimistically assuming that all uses of Whenau Hou are in the context of a dual name (and they aren't; the Maori name by itself has some usage - see ODT, Stuff, and NZ Herald for examples), then usage is roughly equal and the dual name hasn't become predominant in common global usage as required by WP:MPN.

  Further, none of your scholarly sources are independent, as all of them are subject to the NZGB Act 2008 which requires scientific publications that were published or prepared in New Zealand to use the dual name - all of your examples are either New Zealand journals, or written by researchers in New Zealand. This also reinforces the fact that the name hasn't become predominant in common global usage yet; many of the ngram results that we are counting towards the dual name will be due to this non-independent usage.

  And yes, you can provide examples of use of the dual name, but contrary to your initial assertion references to the island don't almost exclusively use the dual name, or even use the dual name the majority of the time. For example, among New Zealand sources: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12.

  When we look at international media, you are correct that the Guardian appears to prefer the dual name, with three results for the dual name to one for the single name, but most other international sources that have mentioned the island since the name change have the opposite position; the BBC prefers Codfish Island, as does the ABC, Fox News, The Conversation, The Washington Post and Huffington Post. BilledMammal (talk) 07:14, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

  Based on your own ngrams, usage wouldn't be equal under that assumption. Taking the most recent figures on there, Whenua Hou has roughly 2/3 the usage of Codfish Island – meaning that usage of the dual name would outnumber use of solely Codfish Island by roughly 2:1 if we take all usage of Whenua Hou to be the dual name. It's not, of course and as you said, which I already partially addressed, but that is all the more reason to use the dual name: it ensures that regardless of whether people know it as the dual name or as either name individually, they'll be more likely to find what they're looking for.

  The articles you've provided aren't even remotely proof to your claim that they don't use the dual name the majority of the time, given that I've already provided far more examples to the contrary. International examples also seem to be more mixed than you're making it out to be, given repeated usage of the dual name by the BBC (a b c) and Forbes (a b), as well as National Geographic and Straits Times. I'd also note that there are further international sources which exclusively use Whenua Hou, including New Scientist and CNN.

  As for your bizarre attempt at discrediting every single scientific article published in New Zealand, your thinkpiece leans heavily on WP:OR to draw incredibly long bows based on passing references. There is no definition of a scientific or geographic document per the Act, nor have you provided any proof that your claim is actively enforced. I highly doubt that the NZ Geographic Board spends its time chasing after errant academics to demand they amend their articles. And further to this, in the extremely unlikely event that this did happen, then all of your sources would be equally discredited given they relied upon field work in New Zealand (at least this is true for sources 3 and 5, I can't access source 4 which means I also can't confirm what form of the name it uses). Turnagra (talk) 08:56, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

  I think your calculations are off; see this Ngrams. Further, your argument of doing it to use both names violates WP:NCPLACE, which says that we should only use dual names when it is actually what English-speakers call the place.

  I note your BBC articles are from before the official name change, as is one of the Forbes article. If we are including results from before this change then the results will be even more in favour of the single name.

  It doesn't rely on OR; it relies on the New Zealand Geographic Board telling us that scientific publications are required to use the official name, as well as other non-government sources, such as maps (although their control over maps has some limitations; a primary issue for the NZGB is that it has limited control on open-source services beyond our shores such as Google Maps, which doesn’t use official data and so may show incorrect place names.) BilledMammal (talk) 09:35, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

  My apologies re. the date – for some reason, I'd gotten it in my head that this was part of the Ngāi Tahu names of '98. To that end, though, I'd note that the Fox News article (reliability questions aside) is from very soon after the shift and so shouldn't really be taken as indicative.

  In terms of the ngrams, I'm going off the latest figures on your original ngrams, which sits at 0.0000001766 for Codfish Island vs. 0.0000001135 for Whenua Hou. Take the ratio of those and you're left with 0.643, or damn near 2/3. I'd also note that this is for 2019, and given the trends for both of those it's likely even closer now.

  At any rate, I think you're misunderstanding my point. I still maintain that the dual name is what most English-speakers call the place, but I'm acknowledging that the remainder seem split between Codfish Island and Whenua Hou. Using the dual name, which would align with modern usage, would also ensure that those who don't use it are still able to easily find it regardless of which name they use. Turnagra (talk) 09:47, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

• Support. From the various sources leveled in this discussion, it's clear that the dual name is widely used, but also that each half of the dual name receives a fair amount of usage as well. The dual name appears to be the most common name, but it's a reasonably close call. For this reason, I think it's best to look at the criterion of recognizability more broadly, rather than focusing too closely on WP:COMMONNAME. The dual name is both a widespread name in its own right, and also contains both of the other names by which the place is sometimes referred to; conversely, either "Codfish Island" or "Whenua Hoa" alone will only incorporate one of the three most used names. Therefore, in my view, recognizability ultimately favors the dual name. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 04:29, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject New Zealand has been notified of this discussion. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 05:50, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

• Support. The official name is Codfish Island / Whenua Hou, according to the gazetteer. In conversations with DOC staff working on the island they call it "Whenua Hou", so it really seems to be one of those paces where the dual name is actually useful. Onco p53 (talk) 07:12, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support. Dual name seems common. As pointed out above using the dual name in this case solves for recognisability as both individual names as well as the dual name are used in the media. For example this article [[1]] leads with the Whenua Hou in the title before reverting to the dual name. The dual name will pick up searchs for Whenua Hou, Codfish Island, and all variations of the dual name. ShakyIsles (talk) 05:11, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.