Talk:Coconut water/Archive 1

Archive 1

Coconut IV

Funny how currently, all the references are to articles describing the use of coconut water as an intravenous fluid, yet no mention of this is made in the article proper. I recall a teacher telling us how he relied on this during the Vietnam war. Are there more rigorous accounts to be found? — Nahum Reduta [talk|contribs] 07:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Cooleyandy (talk) 18:59, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Coconut water is good for upset stomachs (Gastritis)

1/05/09 Althhow says Cocunut water is also good for the purification of the heart. The young coconut is especially good for the heart. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.27.114.193 (talk) 02:56, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

3/3/10 Visiting Thailand. Don't believe the hype. Tastes like piss water. You have to be a nut (pun intended) to like this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.157.254.135 (talk) 15:49, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

5/15/10 Is coconut water a good fuel for triathletes? Comments? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.52.136.66 (talk) 19:55, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

5/5/2010 It seems like this article is biased and is verified largely by references to web pages which have an agenda in promoting the use of coconut water. While its benefecial uses may be verifiable, there is poor documentation here supporting the many claims of coconut water's efficacy.˜˜˜˜ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.174.182.246 (talk) 02:27, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

In Brazil, coconut water is called "água de coco".

Oh, c'mon. If it were called anything else, it might be noteworthy. Should we say that it's called "Agua de coco" in Spanish, "Eau d' coco" in French, and "Cocowasser" is German? I mean, what did you expect Brazilians do call it if not "agua de coco"? Should all articles provide the translation for the word in question in places where people use it? Chrisrus (talk) 02:28, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, in Panama it is called Agua de Pipa. In Spanish, it's important to remember that coloquielisms can mean very different things and SO it could be significant to say what it's called so you know what you're getting. Cognates do not always translate like you think they might. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.212.220.19 (talk) 15:19, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Maybe, although also maybe not, but maybe it might be worth mentioning that it's not called "agua de coco" in Spanish, as one might be forgiven for thinking it would. Also, if it weren't called "agua de coco" in Portugese it might be worth mentioning. But telling the reader that it's called "agua de coco" in Brazil seems pretty pointless. Chrisrus (talk) 16:15, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Manganese

I have a container of unadulterated coconut juice, which says 260 ml of liquid contains 40% of the US RDA of manganese. Ive never seen a food with this high a manganese content before, and this element is not listed in our articles nutrient list. I wonder if there is a source for this fact beyond the label on the drink (amy and brian all natural coconut juice, product of thailand).76.232.10.199 (talk) 01:59, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Could just be the soil in that region in thailand. --203.97.113.11 (talk) 04:50, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Well its fortunate that wikipedia isn't an independent research facility :D 203.97.113.11 (talk) 14:17, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Types and Benefits of different Brands of Coconut water

The different brands of coconut water have different "kinds" of product. I sugest to add these brands and their individual benefits to the human body. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.226.64.85 (talk) 13:41, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

The changes you have made are not up to Wikipedia standards, and read like advertising. The health claims therein are not supported by evidence (see references in the lead of the article). If you would like to include information as to the major brands of coconut water, you will need to provide a reference for that. Can you find one that has global reach? Otherwise, we will need one for a particular country and will need to state it is only for that country. I have reverted your good faith edit for the moment, and invite you to comment further here. --papageno (talk) 20:36, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Medicinal properties - good faith - revert

I have reverted a recent good faith edit. All the studies cited are very preliminary work, and all have similar authorship from the same university, thus not up to the standard of WP:MEDRS. In addition, the edits have been undertaken by an anonymous users with a numeric IP (210.212.236.73) at the very university in question, a potential WP:COI. --papageno (talk) 20:03, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Healthy, or deadly?

This article is bipolar. First it leads one to believe coconut water is generally quite healthy to drink, then it says it can make you sick and die in a day. The assertion that a beverage that is becoming so popular is also so toxic disturbs me. I looked at the source for the section on thalaikoothal senicide, and found only anecdotal evidence, save for one Dr. Ashok Kumar in Madurai. I found his location in southern India, and a telephone number. I wonder if I should call him to get a clarification. Maybe the oil bath does something to smother all the pores of the body, which causes the ill effects, in which case harmless, sterile, pure H2O would have the same effect as coconut water during the thalaikoothal ritual. Worldbook1967 (talk) 07:16, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

It's not bipolar. If you drink just coconut water and nothing else it will be toxic. 50.170.52.184 (talk) 06:29, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

@50.170.52.184: Certainly not. There are numerous records of stranded individuals subsisting on nothing but coconut water for weeks at a time, none the worse for it. Drsruli (talk) 03:27, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

So how many gallons of coconut water would one have to consume to reach a level toxic enough to cause death in "a day or two"? Probably as much as any other beverage, so should every article about foods or beverages contain a part about how they can cause death if grossly abused? This section does give the article a laughable melodramatic touch (drinking glasses of coconut water "results in renal failure, high fever, fits, and death"). I still just don't buy it. Worldbook1967 (talk) 08:17, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

This senicide part seems to be missing a lot of information and its very disturbing. How much will kill me? Its very well to make generalisations in the talk section but that doesn't solve the problem with the page.203.97.113.11 (talk) 04:52, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

The "Risk" section is a travesty. It claims Hyperkalemia as a result of drinking coconut water, but the research article shows it was rhabdomyolosis and the follow-up kidney failure that was the main culprit, resulting in ER treatment, not death. It actually has nothing to do with coconut water as kidney failure will result in death sooner or later. It's just a question about what toxic compound gets there first.

It's a fact that standard milk contains almost as much potassium (162-182 mg/100g according to USDA, https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/135) but there are zero reports of people dying from Hyperkalemia while drinking milk.

Also the article about killing the elderly talks about feeding them mud, filling their *lungs* with fluids (coconut milk) but is as far from being a scientific source as is humanly possible. Why is that allowed to be a reference when so many other sources isn't?

That potassium chloride and sodium chloride is in the same ballpark when it comes to LD50 should help people realize the crying of "wolf" over potassium and related products is fun for people who write headlines but is of little value to those who practice medicine.

I can't understand how come the entire risk section added 09:35, 25 September 2017 by 2605:a000:f8c8:1800:e947:28a:c71:3f99 hasn't yet been deleted. There is no need for voting when a single source makes absurd claims and what use is there in filling Wikipedia with information that obviously isn't true? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.250.216.128 (talk)

This is a big world. Everything happens. There are case reports of some people ODing on coconut water with as little as 0.75L. However, considering that this is a very common beverage, and is regularly consumed in large quantities worldwide, the existence of a couple dozen case reports doesn't represent a significant risk, for healthy people. One would have to drink over 2L of pure coconut water just to reach %100 of the USRDA for potassium. Hyperkalemia is more commonly reported with prescription potassium supplements, or salt substitutes, foods that have a very high density of potassium. By comparison, cocoa has a much higher density of potassium, and Hyperkalemia from overdose on cocoa or chocolate by healthy people is not a concern.

https://examine.com/supplements/potassium/research/#safety-and-toxicity\_hyperkalemia

By comparison, we have records of stranded individuals subsisting on nothing but coconut water for weeks until they were rescued, and none the worse for wear. Most famously, recently, on an episode of "Naked & Afraid".

Suggest remove the entire section. It doesn't seem that coconut water is a particularly good source of potassium (beyond the immediate value of replacing lost electrolytes), nor is it a particular danger for toxic overdose on this mineral.

Drsruli (talk) 03:20, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Sterile?

I think the phrase 'Unless the coconut has been damaged, it is likely sterile' in the article is confusing. Does this mean sterile as in the absence of bacteria? Or does it mean sterile as in the plant is unable to reproduce? Jo L was here (talk) 09:12, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Senicide

I removed the section because it seems to me that the information was a misrepresentation of the sources. [1] --Ronz (talk) 16:33, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

It seems that section was lifted almost verbatim from the Thalaikoothal article. What exactly did you think was misrepresented about the sources? The Tehelka magazine article quotes a doctor: "'Tender coconut water taken in excess causes renal failure,' says Dr Ashok Kumar, a practicing physician in Madurai." ~Amatulić (talk) 23:50, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

By generalizing and taking the information out of context. For instance "taken in excess" is removed. Of course, if we want to include medical information, WP:MEDRS applies, but we need to start with information that we agree isn't an outright misrepresentation first. --Ronz (talk) 18:28, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

The links are appropriate. The British Journal of Hospital medicine article (abstract here) is a WP:MEDRS that it is possible, and the article at Tehelka suggested it was/is a cultural practice and provided additional medical evidence (IE the quotation that User Amatulic cites). The text should be restored. --papageno (talk) 15:59, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but removing information like "taken in excess" misrepresents the source. I don't have access to the full BJHM article that might clarify under exactly what circumstances it acts in such a manner.

As for the Tehelka article, it mentions nothing about how widespread it is. Most importantly it doesn't make clear the difference between coconut water being used for health purposes and for senicide. Find a better source. --Ronz (talk) 19:31, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I have added back the Senicide section. Your primary issue seems to be that the text did not clarify that coconut water needed to be taken in excess. This is not a reason to remove the section, rather to improve the text; I have added that clarification in to the restored section. You say the Tehelka article does not state how widespread the practice is. But the WP text does not make any statement as to how widespread the practice is, so this is not a reason to exclude the Tehelka reference. If you would like to add information about how widespread the practice is, or where in India it is practiced, I would be happy to review that information with any references you might offer. You also say the Tehelka article does not distinguish between senicide and health uses of coconut water. However, the section is about senicide, the reference is in support of this aspect, and the reference appears to be relevant — and, looking at the Tehelka article on Wikipedia, it seems to be a respectable and credible news organization. If you wish to add information as to the medical use of coconut water in India, again, I would be happy to review and text and references as a prelude to adding it to the Medical uses section of the WP article. --papageno (talk) 21:17, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

This section is still very confusing... how much is excess? I am comfortable drinking 2 litres of coconut water currently but after reading this im not so sure... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.97.113.11 (talk) 04:55, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Would be great to have a reference as to how much is lethal. As for your own intake, I am not a doctor, and you should get professional medical advice. That being said, the potassium article says the Institute of Medicine recommended daily intake is 4,700 mg (reference in the Potassium article is Dietary Reference Intakes: Water, Potassium, Sodium, Chloride, and Sulfate). The coconut water article gives a figure of 250 mg of potassium per 100 g, about 100 ml. So two litres will give you roughly 20 times 250 mg or 5,000 mg. Assuming you're not getting too much from other sources, and you don't have kidney disease, you should be OK.--papageno (talk) 17:36, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Since its so vague and confusing... and that I cannot figure that out from this article. I think its very obvious that this should be removed. It's written in a way that would lead you to believe its a serious health concern. also see a the Healthy or Deadly section further up the talk page... particularily Worldbook1967's comment. Also in the cited article it says that they are given several glasses... But it goes on to say it is the oil bath that kills them? 203.97.113.11(talk) 14:25, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

As has been pointed out previously, it is in a section about Senicide, with proper sources. It would be even better to have a precise declaration of the amounts that are problematic, but is it not in the least confusing in its current presentation. Please stop trying to blank this section. --papageno (talk) 20:51, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

according to the cited article, "several glasses" of coconut water will be fatal by way of hyperkalaemia. however 2 litres of coconut water will give you just over your RDI of potassium... This information doesn't seem to be up to the standard of WP. It creates more questions than it answers. Its either written in a way that only a medical person would understand it or its trying to be very melodramatic. Since this magazine says several glasses of coconut water is fatal would it not be prudent to add this information? Since this is where the whole concept comes from. Otherwise you're not telling the whole story and misrepresenting the source. do you see my problem? 203.97.113.11 (talk) 02:24, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Vote to decide on whether this section should be deleted entirely or retained (with more and better references).

• Delete: The topic is clearly WP:FRINGE and cannot be supported from reputable clinical sources, failing WP:MEDRS. Respectfully to Winner 42's comments below, the concern about hyperkalemia is invalid and not proven in any report on thalaikoothal. As calculated by papageno in the above Talk, and shown in the article's nutrient table, high blood levels of potassium would require much more than 2 liters of coconut water consumed, as it is not a good source of potassium. In good science, the "dose" of the fatal agent would need to be defined, making this report WP:OR

Summarizing weaknesses of any relation to senicide

1. no confirmation of any relation specifically to hyperkalemia or to coconut water (any beverage, even water, may have contributed to death if given in high amounts in the one instance reported); consequently, this is simply a case study, not WP:VER, WP:SCIRS or WP:MEDRS
2. no presentation of the potentially innumerable other mortality factors present in the dying person; fails WP:VER and WP:MEDRS
3. see discussion above under "healthy or deadly": fails WP:CONSENSUS and WP:NPOV --Zefr (talk) 03:59, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support inclusion of senicide section There are two different things being argued here, the existence of Thalaikoothal and the fact that excessive consumption of coconut water can lead to hyperkalaemia. Both statements are supported by reliable sources. Most importantly is the British Journal of Hospital Medicine's paper on Coconut water-induced hyperkalaemia. A MEDLINE indexed journal which passes WP:MEDRS. The cultural practice is supported by the LA Times which documents the practice and includes a quote from Dr. Raja Natrajan who says that "drinking excessive liquids can induce renal failure". The Hindu also mentions the practice. The section can be adequately supported by reliable sources and should be kept. Winner 42 Talk to me! 13:41, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
• Keep/Support inclusion of senicide section: Agree with Winner 42's comments. Support any efforts by andy users to clarify text and invite specific proposals. --papageno (talk) 18:34, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

• Request for Clarification: To focus the discussion and find the central points of contention, can we agree: Thalaikoothal exists; and coconut water is commonly used (stipulate maybe in consort with/adjunct to other measures)? Also, does anyone have access to the paper in the British Journal of Hospital Medicine paper? I suspect we will find exact information as to how much coconut water needed to induce hyperkalaemia. --papageno (talk) 17:00, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

WP:NPOV draft on naming the section "folk medicine" (not senicide)

From the article section on Senicide, 14 May 2015, I offer here a draft for a neutrally-presented discussion, including two new references. The patient presented as a case report by Hakimian et al. had consumed 8 bottles (@ 11 oz.) of coconut water (apparently fortified to have high potassium content) over several hours in one day. --Zefr (talk) 19:33, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Folk medicine

Coconut water may be used in folk medicine practices, including treatment of diarrhea or senicide of elderly people, known in India as thalaikoothal. In this custom, the elderly person is made to drink an excessive amount of coconut water, eventually resulting in death by undefined factors. By anecdotes, acute kidney failure due to hyperkalemia was deemed the principal outcome of consuming coconut water excessively, causing loss of consciousness and senicide.

References

Excellent work, Zefr. Might I suggest one small improvement. Hyperkalemia is the result of drinking too much coconut water or even water. That's not in doubt. The question here is whether or not enough is given in the case of thalaikoothal to induce hyperkalemia. And the factors are not undefined, just not scientifically established. Perhaps the last two sentences (I leave out the references and WP links) could be "In this custom, the elderly person is made to drink an excessive amount of coconut water, eventually resulting in death, the exact causes of which have not been scientifically determined. One presumed factor supported by anecdote is hyperkalemia, from the excess consumption of coconut water, inducing acute kidney failure." --papageno (talk) 00:31, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Agree. Will wait a few days for further editing and consensus before altering the article. Thanks. --Zefr (talk) 01:16, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

 Done --papageno (talk) 22:24, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Dispute over photo

I am appealing to other editors to help resolve a dispute over a photo I added to this article some days ago: File:Coconut water vendor, Port of Spain.jpg, which I first added to the article on 26 October, 2016. Ronz has removed this photo a couple of times complaining that the photo was not clear or relevant enough. I, obviously, disagree with his point of view. So, to avoid an "edit war" I thought I should discuss the issue here and ask other editors for their opinion.

Ronz has listed a number of objections and comments which I will paste in below for others to consider. I haven't yet tried to answer them all but one in particular - his/her first one - as to why the article is useful. I think I should comment on this now.

It seems to me, though perhaps I am mistaken, that he/she is questioning why we should have a Wikipedia article on coconut water at all. To me this is self-evident. Coconut water is a refreshing, tasty and popular product sold almost anywhere coconuts are grown in quantity. Many other fresh juices and drinks made from fruits and vegetables (such as orange juice, grape juice, sugarcane juice, etc., etc.) have articles about them in the Wikipedia, and, as they make up an important part of people's diets I think they are really relevant and deserve to be covered in the Wikipedia. I personally love it as it is so refreshing a delicious on a hot day, and have bought it from street vendors in many of the West Indian islands, as well as in Mexico, Cuba, Venezuela, Guiana, India, Pakistan, and several Pacific islands. It use is thus very widespread and, I believe, richly deserves mention in the Wikipedia.

Whether or not it has much nutritional value is really beside the question. It provides a popular and tasty source of fluids in tropical countries, and customers can be sure it is safe if it is drunk straight from the coconut, as it is sterile, unlike the water in many countries and unlike many other juices that are frequently sold mixed with water or ice that is sometimes contaminated.

At the risk of being long winded, I will now paste in some of the discussions we have already had on our Talk pages about the photograph to help others make an informed decision about whether it is worthy of inclusion in this article. I will also reverse the deletion of the photograph so that others can examine it (at least until a firm decision is made about its suitability).

Thank you all for your consideration of this matter. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 22:59, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Here are some of the earlier discussions:

"Photo of Coconut water vendor in Trinidad removed

I notice you have just removed my photo of a street vendor selling coconut water from a cart in Port of Spain Trinidad immediately after I reversed such a deletion by another editor. After I restored the photo I wrote to him/her the following message explaining why I thought the photo was relevant and of historical interest in the Coconut water article and asked him to please contact me if he/she wanted to delete it again. I would like to make the same request of you, but instead of rewriting the note - I thought I would just past in my original note below as it applies to you as well:

I notice you have removed my photo of a coconut water vendor in Trinidad from two articles - the general one on Coconuts and the one on Coconut water. While I think you may have some slight justification for removing it from the general one on Coconuts - I think it is very relevant to have it in the article on Coconut water as it may well be of interest to readers to see how this refreshing drink was once marketed in the streets of Caribbean towns. I strongly believe the photo is not only relevant and interesting, but has historical value. So I have reverted your edit. If you don't agree, please write to me explaining your reasons before removing it again. Thank you, John Hill (talk) 01:38, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, John Hill (talk) 03:23, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello John Hill. In response to your note left for Ronz and me: Respectfully, I didn't feel the image was necessary because: 1) the image isn't clearly showing anything about coconut water. A user accessing the article would be unable to interpret any value in the image. 2) There is no discussion of history in the article of consuming coconut water, so even a clear picture of vending coconut water would not have any context. 3) Making a point with one image about historical consumption of coconut water in Trinidad is off-topic per WP:UNDUE. 4) Further, WP:NOTGALLERY indicates that an article is not a repository for miscellaneous images. 5) Finally, Ronz and I disagree with you that the image has merit, a condition of non-consensus among editors per WP:CON. I would ask you to remove it please. --Zefr (talk) 05:31, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello Zefr. Thank you for your prompt reply. Unfortunately, I don't agree with you on this matter - but please don't take it personally - I just think you are wrong on this issue.

I you look at the article on Coconut water you will see that I have placed the photo right next to the following text (which was already in the article when I first came to it) under the heading: ==Human consumption and derivative products==

"Coconut water has long been a popular drink in the tropical countries where it is available fresh, canned, or bottled. Coconuts for drinking are served fresh, chilled or packaged in many places. They are often sold by street vendors who cut them open with machetes or similar implements in front of customers."

Now, if you look at the photo carefully you can see that the street vendor on the cart is clearly cutting coconuts open with a machete in front of customers - therefore perfectly illustrating the text. So, I contend this is a very appropriate photo to have here in this article and I intend to leave it there. If you still wish to remove it I think we should take the matter up for arbitration. I am sorry it has gone this far - I certainly am not looking for an argument - but I do think my photo has value and should remain in the article. Yours sincerely, John Hill (talk) 07:46, 27 August 2016 (UTC)"

No, I'm not questioning the value of this article.

Could you address my concerns, basically that the image is worse in all ways to the other? --Ronz

Reply to Ronz:

I can't understand why you think this photo is "worse in all ways than the other" (presumably the one immediately above it showing coconuts on the sidewalk or pavement). While I have nothing against that photo I contend that the one I uploaded is far more interesting as it actually shows a vendor opening a coconut with a machete on the back of a donkey cart full of coconuts - illustrating what used to be a very common sight in West Indian and Latin American towns. It also shows a customer in the background. Additionally, this photo has historical interest as, in this motorised age, vendors using donkey carts are no longer very common. I think, perhaps, you don't like it because it is not in colour or, maybe, quite as sharp as the other one. However, I think this is overridden by the historical interest and, in any case, it is quite clear enough to show that the man is opening the coconuts with a machete, thereby clearly illustrating the statement in the text. I believe I have previously dealt with your other objections. John Hill (talk) 23:10, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Alternate view

After looking over the reverts and the discussion above, I'll say that John Hill's black-and-white photo looks to me more like a coconut water vendor than the other photo of a "green coconut vendor" which doesn't even seem to be about coconut water, but rather the coconuts themselves. We don't need both images. If I had to pick, I'd remove the green coconut vendor image and keep the black and white one. But I wouldn't object if both images were removed. ~Amatulić (talk) 23:58, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I've gone ahead and removed both per your points.

Just to clarify. The first image clearly shows coconuts and coconuts dominate the image. In the second one cannot make out anything about coconuts or coconut water at all, and it is dominated by a cart. --Ronz (talk) 16:39, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

I think a mistake has been made here

I think the article is poorer, less informative and interesting now the photo has been deleted, but I am not going to waste any more time over it. I should point out before I go that the other photo was of interest also as green coconuts are usually sold for their water - a very popular drink in tropical climes and it is also used in cooking. Many readers may be unaware of how it is commonly marketed in many countries. The readers will be the real losers. It is just sad. John Hill (talk) 10:39, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

You've not addressed the others' concerns, nor does the image convey what you are so concerned about. --Ronz (talk) 16:01, 31 August 2016 (UTC)