Talk:Coco Lee/Archive 1

Hyphenated surname

I temporarily removed her double-surname of "Lee-Kelly" until somebody can verify it. As Google shows only 36 hits. Lee's mother and father are both Mainlander Chinese. I don't believe she is married yet, so I have no idea how she got a Anglo-American surname. --Menchi 07:35, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

---> Lee's father is a Chinese Malaysian - read this: http://dailynews.sina.com/bg/ent/hktwstar/sinchewdaily/20091210/2149952058.html and it's quite obvious that this article has some political influences, for instance the part about Lee going back to Hong Kong in 1992 - Hong Kong was not a part of China in 1992. This article is making Lee sound more Chinese than she really is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rawringtiger (talk • contribs) 20:37, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Lee-Kelly is definitely correct, and was her name through high school, but is rarely seen these days because of the prevalence of her stage name 'CoCo Lee' (the CoCo being taken from her love of the Chanel fashion house, and I believe originally used of her by her sister). --ishel99 21:50, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I attended junior high with Ferren Lee-Kelly, and Lee-Kelly is her real surname. She is 100% Chinese, but her father and stepfather were both out of the picture by the time I met her in San Francisco when we were 11 years old. She is NOT eurasian. -- 216.10.144.10, 14 Jan 2006

Isn't the surname "Kelly" from her stepfather? I believe reading somewhere that her biological father passed away when she was young and her mother remarried. Abstrakt 04:41, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe she is mixed. The only way to know is to ask Coco Lee if she is mixed or not. You know, some HongKongnese Chinese are mixed. Did Coco Lee learn Mandarin from her parents? What is her first language? Sonic99 (talk) 01:29, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Birthday

I don't believe that the birthday is correct - month or year. I've been researching what her real birthday is and have only found one source. The one that I have handy says her birth year is 1974. This is from Biography and Genealogy Master Index. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale Group, 1980-2001. --Leep Librarian 25 Feb. 2004

The consensus seems to be for January 17, 1975 though 1976 is often seen and very occasionally 1974. At the time of her engagement earlier this year there were widespread references to "thirty year old" CoCo becoming engaged to her 45 year old fiance. One of the most well-established fan-sites at CoCoFans.com gives 1975; and the reference to 1976 at CoCoLee.net seems to be based only upon the entry at All Music Guide, although the author of that entry has since changed the date to 1974!! However, on a visit to the Philippines earlier this year CoCo said in an interview, evidently prior to her engagement being made public, "I used to say that when I turn 30, I should be married already and then at 32, I should have a family. But look, I'm 30 now. (emphasis added) What I learned is yes it's good to have plans but it's even better to be flexible." (Though it seems that this interview was published for the Philippines market in June, it is possible that it was taken, by it's rather disreputable source, from an interview conducted by another source earlier this year, hence the lack of reference to her fiance). This interview certainly discounts 1976 as a possibility, and makes 1974 also unlikely unless the interview is very stale. The source of the interview is AsianSexGazette - be assured that I found that by Google-searching, not browsing! --ishel99 22:07, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Characters

I think I have seen her name written 李玫, as well as 李玟. 216.195.154.194 23:50, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

玫 is a different character pronounced as mei as in Rose. I have also seen many misspellings on this site. Seeing it does not make it correct. Kowloonese 00:23, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Re: removal of External link: http://fansites.hollywood.com/~cocolee/ Hollywood Fan Sites: Coco Lee]

To the anonymous contributor of the above link, the site is a cache of the previous version of "www.cocofans.com", which has been inactive for over a year (March 2005). I was a regular contributor to that site, and currently a moderator of the English portal on the current site. All content from that site was migrated to the new "www.cocofans.com", and messages from the forum (ezboard hosted) archived and available on the new forum. Regards, Southsloper 08:41, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Vocal Profile

Uh...it seems...inaccurate. Where did this information come from? Highconclave 07:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

> isnt she mezzo ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.156.6.54 (talk • contribs) 2006-06-27 23:33:49

Picture

I cannot believe I'm taking the time to do this but could someone change the picture of CoCo on her page? The photo is very ugly and really doesn't look like her,. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.255.243.0 (talk • contribs) 2006-08-24 15:58:29

Do you have a picture that we can use? Would you prefer a picture of her when her hair was still dyed blonde? --- Hong Qi Gong 20:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't care if this comment comes four years later - why would you even ask if the person preferred a photo of her with her hair still dyed blond? It seems you are the person with the problem with her hair dyed blond, not the person having a problem with CoCo being back to her natural brunette color. Thinking the photo is not flattering to CoCo doesn't mean the person prefers her with dyed hair. It appears you are insinuating CoCo was being "fake" for having dyed her hair blond and accusing the other poster for supporting her being "fake". The person just thought the photo was unflattering, you didn't have to be so ugly about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.229.132.123 (talk) 00:24, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

umm it IS her. She's just sometimes fat and sometimes thin. Okay I'll replace the picture once i find a better one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.9.1 (talk • contribs) 2007-01-15 19:38:13

can somebody change her photo immediately? She doesn't look good there....cocovanness08 (talk) 10:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Li Wen?

Why is she called Li Wen? -Adjusting 05:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

李玟 is her stage name. Li in Mandarin is from her last name, 李, which is romanized Lee from Cantonese, due to the fact that she was born in Hong Kong.

Improvement of Whole Aritcle

I'm currently editing Coco Lee's whole article...can we expand her biography by adding facts about her? cocovanness08 (talk) 09:39, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

So long as they're not trivial ("she likes to eat tofu") and have citations from relevant third-party sources, then you're good to go. Pandacomics (talk) 09:43, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Protection of the Article

How can the "needs verification and citations" and "this article looks like an advertisment" be removed? I also wanted to change her photo...it's from cocolee.net, her official website and has allowed to get information form the website...how?cocovanness08 (talk) 09:58, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

When someone puts a tag saying the article looks like an advertisement, it means that the article's language is overly biased towards the article's subject, as if the article were being used to promote the artist as opposed to providing a factual account of the artist's biography. Ways to fix this are to remove weasel or peacock words that make her seem "larger than life". You can replace an image so long as it is published under a Creative Commons license, meaning that the picture can be used under certain conditions, or a GFDL license, meaning that the photographer has released the picture into the public domain. Most photographs are copyrighted, meaning that we cannot use them for, well, copyright reasons. If you have questions, feel free to head over to the Wikimedia Commons to see the type of free media that they have to offer. Pandacomics (talk) 11:12, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

LOL, indeed one must start at kindergarten level with fanbot asians on the subtleties

of historicization. . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.170.68.234 (talk) 04:51, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Birthday (2008 discussion)

Coco Lee was born in January 17, 1976. In an interview with Sony Music Philippines(visit the website), for the promotion of her album, "Exposed", she said "I'm 29 now...." and that's in 2005, so if we are going to do the math,(2005-29) she was born in 1976.cocovanness08 (talk) 09:19, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Profile Improvement

Please, can someone change the image? She doesn't look so good there. Let's help one another to expand Coco's article in Wikipedia....cocovanness08 (talk) 07:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

You're going to have to have someone take a picture of her at an event then. Nearly all "good-looking" pictures on the internet are copyrighted. This one is free for use because someone else took a picture of her, and he/she released the rights to it under Creative Commons or GFDL. Otherwise, this image will largely stay the same. Pandacomics (talk) 11:04, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

She looks good and there is no need to remove the "good looking" picture. What panda the bear said was right. If you or someone can get a picture of "good looking". Then it can be added too. --SkyWalker (talk) 08:04, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Discography: Added missing live album

I know this is not a fan site, but I really think that this is one of the best. The band plays outstanding, grooves the hell out of everything and CoCo gives all she can. So ... the only thing missing in a proof this is not just a bootleg. As my Chinese is a half percent out of 100, it was bloody hard to find this. But I made it: http://www.5music.com.tw/CdList-C.asp?cdno=425425742383 -andy 92.229.78.33 (talk) 12:43, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

CoCo vs Coco

thumb|leftI believe her name should be written as CoCo Lee as oposite to Coco Lee. If you look at the picture of her Just No Other Way cover, her name is written that way. Should we move the page back to CoCo Lee? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.214.122.146 (talk) 00:43, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Album confusion!!

Can anyone help out here? The article says she released a self-titled Cantonese album, but after verifying here (http://www.angelfire.com/co/ferren/albums.html , Firefox: manually set Big5 encoding) I'm sure there is a mistake in the article. Her Cantonese album is not self-titled, but it's named after the opening track, 下次小心 (Careful Next Time). Would you agree it's a mistake in the article, or who else is wrong here? -andy 92.229.111.254 (talk) 00:30, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Source quality

Reminder to the editors on this page (the IP from France, in particular) - self-published sources are in most cases unreliable. To put it to extremes, if Ms. Lee were to publish on her bio page that she was 400 feet tall we could indeed cite that...but it is clearly unreliable. Youtube, myspace, imdb all have issues with being self-published content.

To put it another way - if you cannot source obscure minutiae of Ms. Lee's life without referencing her self-published bio then most likely the article can do without it. Thanks for reading. Syrthiss (talk) 17:22, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Her father died before she was born

...not when she was young. She stated so herself in this Bloomberg interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SEUUWhT-7g — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.34.9.236 (talk) 05:46, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Her father's nationality/ethnicity

When I read this article for the first time last night, it simply said her father was "Malaysian" with no clarification of him being Chinese-Malay or just fully Malay. It now reads that he is "Chinese-Indonesian" (or "Indonesian-Chinese," which is the same). However, I looked at both sources and they do not actually cite this. In fact, the second one shows that he is Chinese-Malay, while the first one just says in Chinese that he died when she was young. Can anyone clarify this? Thanks. KardashianFan (talk) 16:05, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

• Both sources actually do say he was Malaysian. The sources were added to support the original statement that he was Malaysian, but someone changed it to say Chinese-Indonesian. I have changed it back based on the sources. ⇒ Lucie Person (talk|contribs) 17:27, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

  Hello @Lucie Person! As of this reversion,[1] it has been seemingly changed back to Chinese-Indonesian and after seeing this discussion, I have changed it to state "Malaysian" as that is what the sources state. I've added a hidden comment because it looks like this has been continually changed for no explanation.[2]

  Now, whether "Malaysian" means that her father was of native Malay or Chinese or Indian or full European or mixed Eurasian (i.e - British and Chinese) ancestry, as it seems some are trying to assert that her father was ethnic Chinese, IDK. And if reliable sources can confirm what specific Malaysian ethnicity her heritage belonged to, it can be discussed here or added in the article. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 06:51, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

It’s likely that her father isn’t from Malaysia: https://today.line.me/tw/v2/amp/article/9m8ooRV

It seems that she mentioned in a Chinese TV show that he’s from Harbin, who then went to Indonesia and then to Beijing (to study in the Peking University as an exchange student).

https://www.sohu.com/a/696202884_121124703

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRKLtDj_mm643rUs4DFEzFF5SoSjcWI8_RbMQ&usqp=CAU

https://tw.news.yahoo.com/李玟是遺腹子-曾被霸凌-放棄上大學-二姊淚-下輩子再當家人-040700519.html

IMHO better source maybe needed. I’ve removed the information about his father for now. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 15:56, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HoEMDfIdMg (16:47) --Dustfreeworld (talk) 00:20, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 August 2023

Add the following content to Coco Lee wiki section “Legacy & Influence”, “Artistry”

Coco Lee, also known as Ferren Lee, is an American-Chinese singer who became a notable figure in both the Asian and Western music markets. Born in Hong Kong and raised in San Francisco, Lee's multicultural background played a significant role in her musical journey.

• • Impact of Coco Lee's Music: East/West Influences**

1. **Bridging the Gap**: Coco Lee is one of the few artists who have successfully bridged the gap between Eastern and Western music. Her ability to sing in both English and Chinese allowed her to introduce Mandarin pop (M-pop) to Western audiences and vice-versa. 2. **Western Recognition**: Lee gained significant recognition in the West when she performed the theme song, "A Love Before Time," for the internationally-acclaimed movie "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon." This track showcased her unique ability to meld both Western and Eastern musical styles. 3. **Versatility**: Throughout her career, Lee experimented with a range of genres, from R&B and pop to traditional Chinese ballads, showcasing her versatility and appeal to a wide audience.

• • The Rise of Asian R&B and Singers like Jay Chou**:

1. **Asian R&B Evolution**: While Coco Lee made strides in popularizing Asian music in the West, the late 1990s and early 2000s saw a surge in the popularity of R&B in Asia. Lee’s music served as an early introduction to the genre for many Asian listeners. 2. **Jay Chou's Influence**: Taiwanese musician Jay Chou, who emerged in the early 2000s, is an excellent example of the rise of Asian R&B. With his unique blend of R&B, rock, and traditional Chinese music elements, Chou created a distinct sound that resonated with listeners globally. 3. **Cultural Exchange**: The success of artists like Coco Lee and Jay Chou not only popularized Asian music in the West but also led to more collaborations and a cultural exchange between Eastern and Western music industries.

In summary, Coco Lee played a pioneering role in introducing Asian music to Western audiences and vice-versa. Her influence, combined with the rise of Asian R&B artists like Jay Chou, has fostered a more inclusive global music industry that appreciates and blends different cultural elements. 76.65.47.69 (talk) 16:36, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi there, thank you for your contribution! However, to add content to Wikipedia we need to have reliable sources. Which means that you need to provide references to the content you wrote. They can be any links (URLs) that support the content. See here for a quick list of sources that are usually accepted and not accepted. Sources not on the list may still be accepted. If you can provide the links then we’ll see if the paragraphs you wrote can be added to the page. Regards, --Dustfreeworld (talk) 18:08, 8 August 2023 (UTC); edited 04:42, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Deactivating this for now, given Dustfreeworld's response. Pinchme123 (talk) 00:13, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

September 2023 verification

"The couple had been separated for more than two years at the time of her death and recent reports said they were due to sign the divorce papers in July."[3]

Early this year, there were reports saying Bruce had an affair for the third time, CoCo left their previous home, and the couple lived separately. 今年初有傳Bruce被發現第3次出軌，CoCo被指搬離昔日愛巢，夫妻正分居。 Lee, 48, has been married to her husband for 12 years, but their relationship deteriorated since 2019, so last October she moved into the Four Seasons Hotel in Central. 據了解，48歲李玟與丈夫結婚12年，自2019年來關係惡化，故於去年10月起搬進中區四季酒店的服務式公寓，李玟母親、兩胞姊及印尼工人則居住在山頂白加道2號摘星閣。[4]

Vacosea (talk) 16:19, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

From another source in the existing article: It was reported that previously, Bruce already had an affair with a young, beautiful woman, but Coco chose to forgive him due to their relationship as husband and wife, but Bruce cheated on her twice more, one time getting caught by Coco's friend, so Bruce admitted to it, experiencing betrayal from her husband three times has hurt Coco deeply. 曾有報道指Bruce前年已出軌，對象還是年輕貌美女子，但李玟念著夫妻情分而選擇原諒，未料Bruce後來又出軌兩次，有次更被李玟的朋友撞見，Bruce於是向李玟承認出軌，3度遭丈夫背叛的李玟傷痛萬分。[5] Vacosea (talk) 04:38, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

I want to point out that, in the translation above, the term “前年” means “the year before last”. So that’s 2021, not “previously” as translated above. - Link to dictionary.

2012: once (which I had pointed out to User:Vacosea in my edit summary before, and alsoas reported in a source I added, which was removed by User:Vacosea), and as shown in my post below)

2021 and latter: 3 times

Total: ?

I hope the wrong translation of that simple term wasn’t an attempt to mislead people to believe their assertion of “3 times” is right, and that User:Vacosea didn’t ignored the source I added what I had pointed about the 2012 alleged cheating, and the content they added (3 times) doesn’t contradict with the 2012 source (Asian Pop News)--Dustfreeworld (talk) 20:26, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Fans of Coco Lee, however, have been directing a lot of their anger towards Bruce Rockowitz, Lee's estranged husband. Lee and Rockowitz, 64, had reportedly been separated for over two years – allegedly due to his infidelity. [6]

Here are two allegations [7] [8] from January about Rockowitz cheating three times.

Vacosea (talk) 17:08, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Until such time as reasonable argument is presented against the edits you wish to implement, the consensus is with you. Please feel free to add the information again. --Boynamedsue (talk) 19:58, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

There were source published in back in 2012 indicating Bruce might have cheated on Lee:

• https://asianpopnews.com/coco-lee-dismisses-marriage-on-the-rocks

That source was added by me (as required by WP:BLPPUBLIC that multiple independent sources are needed to support such contentious content) but removed by you:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Coco_Lee&diff=prev&oldid=1174007919

How can you be sure that Bruce had cheated on Lee exactly 3 times? Not to mention the many other reports saying no cheating at all or just one/two time.

As I told you in my edit summary as early as 5 September, that how long they had been separated is also undecided:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Coco_Lee&diff=prev&oldid=1174011481

And I had added one more source there (mentioning their vacation in Maldives in Aug 2022, which means separation much less than 2 years) to show you my reasoning, but you simply ignore that and keep adding the contentious information again and again. May we know what’s your purpose? --Dustfreeworld (talk) 20:05, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Vacationing together, moving out, and having separated are not always the same thing. Do you want the Asian Pop News article as a source? It doesn't contradict what I added. 6 other sources support them. Vacosea (talk) 20:23, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

In addition to the above, here is the latest BREAKING news, 20 September 2023 (no, not old news):

• https://www.thestandard.com.hk/section-news/section/11/256329/Husband's-'affair'-triggered-Coco's-downward-spiral
  • “The couple started to live separately on October 15, 2022” - you said they had separated for 2 years?
  • “A month after Lee filed the divorce application Rockowitz issued a response through his lawyer admitting his affair in 2017, but not the continuation of the affair his wife mentioned.” - He only admitted having cheated on Lee once.”

I’m very doubtful about their saying at ANI that “The vast majority of my edits were accurate”, respectfully.

From my understanding, for BLP, wrong or doubtful content must be removed as soon as possible. I SHOULD HAVE removed them and posted warnings on their user’s talk page much earlier. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 20:49, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

BLP is why the current article does not express certainty by saying "alleged to have cheated three times" or "reports saying they had separated more than two years". Admitting to having an affair once does not contradict allegations of cheating more than once, which have been covered extensively, but I can see why the length of their separation can be reported as a wider range instead. Vacosea (talk) 21:14, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Ok, so there are two questions here, the three times issue and the 2 years issue.

1. Three times: I agree that hedging is enough to satisfy BLP here, but it needs to exactly reflect the source and possibly be attributed to the newspaper it comes from.

2. The two years issue, the straits times explicitly states "separated two years ago" whereas the standard gives a date when they started to "live separately", these do seem to be conflicting, or at least potentially so. How many sources say two years, or give dates that would suggest this, and how many non-circumstantial texts (Vacosea is right, reports of holidays etc are irrelevant) suggest 1 year?Boynamedsue (talk) 05:34, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

In fact we don’t need to include the details of “how many times” and “separated for how long” in the article. Per WP:BLPPUBLIC:

If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out.

We can find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting “Bruce allegedly cheated on Lee”, and “the couple had reportedly separated before she died”. So these can be included.

But, the sources don’t agree on “times cheated” and “separated for how long”. So we shouldn’t include those. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 07:45, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

And it’s about WP:RSBREAKING and WP:NPOV as well. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 07:48, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Allegations of cheating multiple times is important to the biography with respect to the 2022-2023 worsening of relationship between Lee and her husband. Lee decided to forgive Rockowitz the first time several years ago, but around January 2023, there were reports of him cheating again.

• Early this year, there were reports saying Bruce was discovered cheating for the 3rd time, Coco reportedly left old love nest, the couple was living separately. 今年初有傳Bruce被發現第3次出軌，CoCo被指搬離昔日愛巢，夫妻正分居。
• It was reported previously that years ago, Bruce already had an affair with a young, beautiful woman, but Coco chose to forgive him due to their relationship as husband and wife, but Bruce cheated on her twice more, one time getting caught by Coco's friend, so Bruce admitted to cheating, experiencing betrayal from her husband 3 times hurt Coco deeply. 曾有報道指Bruce前年已出軌，對象還是年輕貌美女子，但李玟念著夫妻情分而選擇原諒，未料Bruce後來又出軌兩次，有次更被李玟的朋友撞見，Bruce於是向李玟承認出軌，3度遭丈夫背叛的李玟傷痛萬分。
• In reality as early as two years ago, it was already reported that Coco Lee had a red light in her marriage, when Lee forgave her husband cheating the first time, and shared a group photo of all four members of the family, who would have thought Bruce got an inch but wanted a mile, hanged out with young foreign women again and again, the latest is already the third time. What pains Lee's friend the most is that the singer's relationship with the two stepdaughters was not bad previously, but they distanced themselves after their father's cheating was discovered, multiple heavy blows led to Lee's poor health. 其實早於兩年前，李玟已傳過一次婚姻亮紅燈，當時李玟原諒老公第一次出軌，所以分享一家四口的合照，怎料Bruce卻得寸進尺，接二連三地與年輕外籍女子鬼混，最近已是第三次。閨密最痛心是原本與李玟關係不錯的兩個繼女，在父親被揭出軌後即疏遠李玟，在多重打擊之下，或因此而令李玟病倒。
• Coco Lee filed for divorce from her Canadian billionaire husband Bruce Rockowitz on January 17 this year ... after allegedly discovering her spouse had an affair. And the hurt of betrayal affected the singer's health as she felt extremely pained over the breakdown of her marriage. For they had signed two marital agreements - one prenuptial in October 2011 and the other after Lee found out her husband was having an affair in 2018, according to Sing Tao Daily, sister paper of The Standard. Court documents unveiled show Lee filed for divorce on the grounds her husband committed unreasonable behavior and the marriage breakdown was "irreversible" after she found out about the alleged affair in 2017. Lee was unwilling to identify Rockowitz's mistress but said in her court submission he admitted the affair and promised to cut ties with the mistress. But two years later Lee found out her husband had continued the affair. Weighed down by her husband's continuing betrayal, Lee felt extremely pained. That affected her health and her situation worsened gradually, according to Lee's submission to the Family Court. Lee subsequently made a will and left all her wealth and assets to her mother without allocating anything to her husband and two stepdaughters.

We can include the statement from Rockowitz's lawyer as well so that everything satisfies WP:BLPPUBLIC. Vacosea (talk) 17:35, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

References

Again, I want to point out that, in the translation above, the term “前年” exactly means “the year before last”. So that’s 2021, not “previously that years ago” as translated above. - Link to dictionary.

2012: once (which I had pointed out to User:Vacosea in my edit summary before, and alsoas reported in a source I added, which was removed by User:Vacosea), and as shown in my post above)

2021 and latter: 3 times

Total: ?

This is the same source as the above post, and the translation was wrong again, and with “years ago” added. I hope the wrong translation of that simple term wasn’t an attempt to mislead people to believe their assertion of “3 times” is right, and that User:Vacosea didn’t ignored the source I added what I had pointed about the 2012 alleged cheating, and the content they added (3 times) doesn’t contradict with the 2012 source (Asian Pop News)--Dustfreeworld (talk) 20:26, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

You are overconfident 1 about your 2012 source. The claim was refuted by Coco herself in that same article [9] and in another article later that month [10]. This is why you should have engaged in discussion in the beginning, instead of warning me about references or suggesting I have some kind of "purpose" [11]. Most of the sources I listed are more than one month old. I'm not always correct, but I have done my part to follow guidelines such as BREAKING. Vacosea (talk) 00:50, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

If your allegations of “overconfident” is true and I’m “overconfident” about the 2012 source, I would have changed It from “3 times” to “4 times”, which I did not. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 07:31, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Your suggestions here for the refuted 2012 source was overconfident. I did not say you changed words to "4 times". Vacosea (talk) 07:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• So, given what you are both saying, I understand the dislike for putting "three times", but don't really agree on the interpretation of BLP. I agree that the exact number is not important, but I think it probably is important to note that the sources indicate this was not a one off event. The language that existed before Vacosea added "3 years" was not technically incorrect, but did kind of imply a single incident. Would it be ok with you both to find language that acknowledged the fact sources indicate multiple infidelities without using the exact number?Boynamedsue (talk) 13:43, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

  It should at least note that cheating was reported years before, but the latest allegation happened around 2022-2023. Dustfreeworld's accusation that I made a wrong or suspicious translation is overconfident 2 The source wrote 曾有報道指Bruce前年已出軌, literally "previous report(s) pointed out that (Bruce) in the year before last already (had) cheated". It is ambiguous whether the source meant the incident happened in the year before last specifically or perhaps even earlier. I used "previously" and "years ago", which do not contradict "the year before last", to leave some room for ambiguity. That appears to have been misinterpreted by Dustfreeworld. There are probably other parts that I skipped or shortened due to length, but they should not alter the gist of the meaning. Vacosea (talk) 08:58, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

  It’s surprising to see your notion: “to leave some room for ambiguity”. You wouldn’t have insisted on adding “3 times” to the article if you were “to leave some room for ambiguity”. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 07:34, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Uncertainty had been hedged by "is alleged to have cheated on Lee" as your own diffs show. You are changing the subject from your premature determination. Vacosea (talk) 07:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Lee’s marriage and WP:BLP

A user (Vacosea) has been adding, restoring or undeleting contentious WP:BLP material to the article without explicit consensus:

• [12] (added cheated “three times” with edit summary: “typo, citation”, 04:43 5 Sep)

• [13] (added separated for “more than two years” with edit summary “not used, to be clear”, 18:55 5 Sep)

• [14] (added separated for “more than two years” with edit summary “unrelated source”, 17:28 6 Sep)

• [15] (added cheated “three times” and separated for “more than two years”, 14:53 27 Sep)

According to WP:BLPRESTORE:

“When material about living persons has been deleted on good-faith BLP objections, any editor wishing to add, restore, or undelete it must ensure it complies with Wikipedia's content policies. If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first.”

I’m removing the material per WP:BLP (WP:BLPREMOVE, WP:BLPRESTORE), WP:RSBREAKING and WP:NPOV. I hope the policies won’t be violated again. Thanks. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 07:50, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Diff. for my edit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Coco_Lee&diff=prev&oldid=1179007950 --Dustfreeworld (talk) 07:59, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

There are concerns that potential multiple infidelities should be indicated in the article. Currently the page reads:

• “ Rockowitz is alleged to have cheated on Lee.”

I propose changing it to:

• There are allegations that Rockowitz had cheated on Lee.

--Dustfreeworld (talk) 08:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Another proposal:

• There are multiple allegations that Rockowitz had cheated on Lee.

--Dustfreeworld (talk) 10:44, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

FYI my final revert had consensus.[16] You don't own this article, especially if you don't participate in the discussion despite being active. Vacosea (talk) 07:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

You reverted in less than 24 hours after a user unfamiliar with the situation said “consensus is with you”. You ignored policies, and not allowing others to reply and to reach consensus. Yes, people maybe misled sometimes, as everyone is time pressed. But they WILL know the truth eventually. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 09:10, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Your start of RFC (below) without discussing the issue on talk first again shows that you are not committed in consensus building. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 09:32, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Do you want to re-hash this again? The truth is discussion was opened on September 13 but you did not participate until September 26 [17], even though you were active on Coco Lee and other articles and talk pages, including ones I was also editing [18]. Vacosea (talk) 09:54, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

So you want to re-hash this again. The truth was explained at ANI (the post which you started against me) already. You did not started a “discussion” on Sep 13. You posted it in response to my request for verification after an erroneous edit of yours. I didn’t reply to it to save face for you. I appreciate your endless efforts in alleging me with things that are not true at all. Given the influence and the large amount of $ the Sing! China incident involved, it won’t surprise me if it turns out that someone is paid to edit in their voice. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 10:44, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

You have a very strange way of saving face for someone through personal attacks during the noticeboard discussions. Vacosea (talk) 21:03, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Mistreatment RfC

What is the most appropriate length and placement for the reported mistreatment of Coco Lee? Vacosea (talk) 07:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The incident occurred and was reported in 2022 while she was mentoring for a talent show [19] [20]. After her July 2023 death, more information and footage was leaked [21] [22]. There may have been a few more reverts in between. Both editors involved should already be aware of the importance of "quick reference" for BLP.

A. Long current version under Health and death.[23]

B. Short version under Health and death.[24]

C. Short version under Career.[25]

D. Short version under Personal life.[26]

Vacosea (talk) 07:21, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Poll

All versions above except A are old versions that do not include much useful information to help our readers understand the issue. I do admit that version A maybe a bit too verbose. I have replaced it with the version from another editor:

• E. A better summary version of A.[27]

I don’t think an RFC is really necessary. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 08:40, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Please do not change the content under discussion during an RfC, so that the versions can remain consistent. I undid that change.

To clarify, E is copied from another article that is linked from this one, not an older revision. Vacosea (talk) 20:41, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

• The length should be shorter, as in B, C, or D, because this is only one work-related incident in Lee's entire career.

The placement should be C because it is primarily work-related and took place in Fall 2022 before her July 2023 death. The mistreatment did not cause nor was it caused by her health issues or death despite slight overlap in circumstances. Vacosea (talk) 20:41, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

• C, no question. Her experience on Sing! China was related to her career and not to her health. Even though she had breast cancer at the time, the media attention surrounding her mentorship on the show had nothing to do with her disease. Pistongrinder (talk) 21:25, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
• E, as I don't see a problem with that part being long if there are proper sources attached to it.PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 01:28, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Please note that my comments in this discussion had been altered and there are much misrepresentation here. I didn’t start the “poll” above and I didn’t “vote” for it. I believe the discussion should be closed. Anyone who is reading this SHOULD NOT REPLY TO IT anymore. Thanks. [28] [29]

--Dustfreeworld (talk) 04:47, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Longer discussions

The sources in D was added by me for future content expansion as the incident is still under investigation. Most of them had been removed by Vacosea already.

* [30] 16:00, 24 August 2023‎ - my edit summary: →‎Personal life: ref (for later content expansion)

--Dustfreeworld (talk) 08:17, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Both A and E appear undue in length for this incident compared to how most other parts of Coco's life have been covered. They are also unrelated to her health issues and death. Vacosea (talk) 09:29, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Do you mean “fell to the ground mid-duet” is unrelated to her health issues? Or do you mean being humiliated is unrelated to her mental health?? --Dustfreeworld (talk) 09:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

WP:OR. Vacosea (talk) 09:56, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

What I said is backed by sources:

• [31] "'Humiliation' claims by late music icon Coco Lee rock top China TV talent show". South China Morning Post.
• [32] "'I was humiliated on stage': Late Coco Lee's rant about unfair treatment on Sing! China leaked, Entertainment News". AsiaOne.

I ask you to strike out your (again) false allegation. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 10:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

And I noticed that you’ve just edited the Sing! China page, adding misinformation (misrepresentation of source) and removing correct information. I hope people won’t be misled this time. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 10:26, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

One more:

• [33]. China’s Voice Represented Hopes and Dreams—It Turned Around to Reveal a Darker Reality

--Dustfreeworld (talk) 07:09, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if we can have more time to expand “other parts of Coco’s life” to make everything due, instead of wasting time in the endless discussions here and there. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 09:42, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The Strait Times (Singapore) report cited above (which Vacosea just added without re-sign) and in the article is not the most reliable source available. The incident happened in China. Coco lived and died in Hong Kong. The Strait Times usually just reiterated what’s reported in the Chinese media. I did find mistakes in their previous reports. Further the report cited was published the next day just after the audio clip leaked. We should use sources published later that contain more accurate information per WP:RSBREAKING (which Vacosea had been told already). I didn’t remove it from the article since it was only used to support very few text (which’s correct) and there are not much English sources out there.

Please refer to the sources below for a better, more comprehensive picture of the issue:

• South China Morning Post
• AsiaOne
• What’s on Weibo
• CNN

--Dustfreeworld (talk) 03:54, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

See also:

• Time.com

--Dustfreeworld (talk) 07:12, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

All sources can have mistakes. Your Time.com article claims definitively that Lee has died by suicide, but we don't know the autopsy result yet. Just provide the links and let other editors decide for themselves for once. Vacosea (talk) 21:03, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Comment A good example to follow is Sinéad O'Connor, who also died this year. Her Death section is very clean. Health is under Personal life. Her SNL/Catholic Church protest, which caused a global storm, is described concisely and worked into her Career section. The apology from Miley Cyrus belongs to the Sexuality section even though it was made after O'Connor's death. Senorangel (talk) 03:41, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Please note that my comments in this discussion had been altered and there are much misrepresentation here. I didn’t start the “poll” above and I didn’t “vote” for it. I believe the discussion should be closed. Anyone who is reading this SHOULD NOT REPLY TO IT anymore. Thanks. [34] [35]

(UTC) --Dustfreeworld (talk) 04:47, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Order of events

It seems that there’s concern over the placement of the section “Leaked clips and Sing! China” (reported mistreatment of Coco Lee). Please note that the clips leaked and Sing! China frozen from broadcasting AFTER Lee’s death. See MOS:CHRONOLOGICAL for the appropriate order of events. Thanks. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 05:22, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

This goes to the RfC above. Despite Dustfreeworld's scary-sounding claims about their long text, signed 9 separate times [36] being put into two sections [37], no meaning was altered. Vacosea (talk) 00:22, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

birth place

Since at least 2006, her place of birth has been stated as Hong Kong. Dustfreeworld removed it from the body of the article and added a template to the infobox [38]. These are just some of the sources we already have in the article saying Hong Kong: The Guardian Barron's SCMP 2014 CBC BBC SCMP 2013 Los Angeles Times 2000. This is the one source, ambiguous to me, used to overturn that information [39]. Vacosea (talk) 08:38, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

FYI, that information wasn’t “overturned”. I just want to show that there’s uncertainty [40]. Thanks. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 22:57, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

By removing all mentions from the article, support for it to be in the infobox is also removed. Vacosea (talk) 16:56, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Add back ref. to the infobox then.[41] (FYI I didn’t remove any ref. about her birth place. I do understand your concern though.) --Dustfreeworld (talk) 18:28, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

That's probably okay for now but not the standard way. See the Purpose section and the References section of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes for clarity. Vacosea (talk) 18:41, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

“Infoboxes can also present data imported from Wikidata”, thanks. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 19:00, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

A possibility but not necessarily an exception by itself. "Imported data must comply with English Wikipedia policies". Vacosea (talk) 19:22, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

I’m not sure I understand what you mean.. anyway. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 10:33, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

I acknowledge your reference to #39. However, certain crucial details in the report seem to be taken out of context and don't align with Nancy Lee's recorded speech. Hence, I find it challenging to regard them as reliable sources. Plantton (talk) 19:02, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

That source is ok IMHO, though we can have better ones. See my reply below. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 20:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

burial

The sources say her ashes were buried. Where did you find her body was entombed [42]? Vacosea (talk) 19:58, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

It’s a careless mistake and I’m sorry about that. Thank you for the amendment. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 22:28, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Importance assessment

In a latest CNN report, Lee was described as “an enormously influential Chinese American singer and actress”,

• Top China talent show suspended after uproar over treatment of late pop star Coco Lee

Perhaps our rating of the page should be changed to reflect that as well? --Dustfreeworld (talk) 11:53, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

It now reads “China: Entertainment Mid‑importance”. What about changing it to “High”, if not “Top”? --Dustfreeworld (talk) 04:52, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Page views: [43] [44]

This maybe more about her global influence however, as most people in Mainland China don’t have access to Wikipedia. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 04:54, 4 November 2023 (UTC)