Talk:Clothianidin/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Section Bees and other insect polinators

The article states: To reduce the risk to pollinators from acute exposure to clothianidin sprays and dust, including dust that results from planting treated seeds, label instructions prohibit the use of these products when crops or weeds are in bloom and pollinators are nearby. The use of sticking agents to reduce dust from treated seeds are also required or are standard practice in many countries, and Germany has stipulated that certain older, air-driven seeding equipment may not be used in corn seed planting operations.[31][32]

This may be true, but the references that are supplied really don't back it up very well. While I understand that label instructions for use as a spray do require that it not be used when "crops or weeds are in bloom and pollinators are nearby", I am not aware that the same restrictions are on the label for seed-treated plantings. At any rate, it is not mentioned in the references. The EPA site covers this info: "The use of sticking agents to reduce dust from treated seeds are also required or are standard practice in many countries", but the info re Germany's decision to use new equipment for corn planting does not really apply to clothianidin since it has been banned for some years now. Gandydancer (talk) 21:31, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Ten days seems long enough to wait for a reply from James. I will remove this information. Gandydancer (talk) 00:49, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Two new articles in Science implicate neonicotinoids in colony collapse disorder

From Science magazine tomorrow:

"Five years ago, bees made headlines when a mysterious condition called colony collapse disorder decimated honey bee colonies in parts of the United States. Now bees are poised to be in the news again, this time because of evidence that systemic insecticides, a common way to protect crops, indirectly harm these important pollinators. Two field studies reported online this week in Science document problems. In bumble bees, exposure to one such chemical [imidacloprid] leads to a dramatic loss of queens and could help explain the insects' decline. In honey bees, another insecticide [thiamethoxam] interferes with the foragers' ability to find their way back to the hive. Researchers say these findings are cause for concern and will increase pressure to improve pesticide testing and regulation."

More popular treatment summarization is available from the BBC.

Update: I apologize that neither of those articles are specific to clothianidin. The RFID study's similarity to [1] made me think otherwise before the embargo was (just) lifted. 70.58.11.42 (talk) 23:41, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Did CCD continue where neonicotinoids were discontinued?

Since France, Germany, Italy, and Slovenia suspended the use of neonicotinoids, it should be feasible to find results of CCD losses in those areas. However, my lack of familiarity with the governments and languages of those countries has made it difficult for me to find the official statistics. The closest I've got so far is this Herald Scotland news report which mentions the bans but doesn't report the resulting statistics. Does anyone know where to find those? Npmay (talk) 21:19, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Aha! A little more digging and an email exchange found this report from multiple authorities in Italy including university researchers and beekeepers who all say their neonicotinoid ban completely halted their CCD losses. It doesn't mention clothinandin directly, but we know from other sources it was included in Italy's suspension. I am certain this should be included in the article, but I hope to track down peer reviewed reports if possible. Npmay (talk) 01:56, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

It would help if you could at least give some hint of neutrality here. You really, truly need to read Wikipedia's prohibition on WP:ORIGINALSYN: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources."

Similarly, your "report from multiple authorities in Italy" is actually a mass media interview article, which is no more reliable than the Herald Scotland link in your previous post. These sorts of references are expressly advised against as sources in technical articles per WP:MEDRS: "The popular press is generally not a reliable source for scientific and medical information in articles."

On a more positive note, you may be interested in a few things the Australians have to say about your favorite theory:

• "The precise cause of CCD is unknown."
• "Colony collapse disorder (CCD) is a poorly understood phenomenon" and (from the same presentation) "No single cause of CCD has been identified."
• In particular, though, open your mind and read slide 18 of Dr. Hornitzky's presentation in the link above very carefully, keeping in mind that clothianidin and imidacloprid are both registered for systemic uses in Australia.
• Finally, in response to the question 'Are agricultural chemicals responsible for Colony Collapse Disorder?' the Australian government responded "In summary, the evidence to date does not support this conclusion." and, further down, "Neonicotinoids are widely used in Australia without Australia experiencing CCD." Incidentally, that last point is one that has experts around the globe scratching their heads.

I only ask that you try to incorporate these concepts into your discussions here. USEPA James (talk) 22:02, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you are unhappy with the results of the suspension in Italy, but I've been able to confirm the results with Italian government statistics sources which I will be writing up shortly. I honestly did not know the answer to my question at the beginning of this section until after I'd received an email reply, and I'm sorry if you think that is not sufficiently neutral. Rest assured I will be able to summarize the pertinent facts from the sources without synthesizing a conclusion.

It appears that those sources you link to are WP:PRIMARY sources from 2009, none of which were peer reviewed, and a government source from 2010 which also was not peer reviewed, all from a country where neonicotinoids use was never suspended. Why are they relevant to this section?

Are you able to say which parts of the peer reviewed WP:SECONDARY Decourtye and Devillers (2010) review say that the cause of CCD remains unknown as you claimed above? As I pointed out in my question above, the precise language on its first two pages is diametrically opposed to your characterization. Npmay (talk) 22:32, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I would strongly recommend that you not limit your discussion to Colony Collapse Disorder in this article. CCD has very specific conditions where the worker bees leave the hive and disappear, the queen remains in the hive, and capped brood and stored honey and pollen are present in the hive. Instead you should consider discussing clothianidin and other pesticides in relationship to bee declines, a more general term, and cite CCD as a subset of bee declines. You are boxing yourself into a corner if you limit yourself to CCD because the bee problems are broader than CCD. Also most research studies on bees have focused on examining sub-lethal effects and mortality in bees from pesticide exposure. There are very few research studies that have focused on determining if pesticides or other factors are causing worker bees to abandon their hives. JSimpson55 (talk) 01:18, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Clothianidin is not banned for use in Germany.

A quick look in the up-to-date german governmental database for registered pesticides:
https://portal.bvl.bund.de/psm/jsp/
shows that there are currently six commercial insecticides containing clothianidin as the active substance allowed for use, specifically one product (Dantop) for foliar use in potatoes against the Colorado beetle and aphids, as well as five seed treatment products used for rapeseed, sugar beet and mangelwurzel seed coatings. Clothianidin (as well as other neonicotinoids, except for dinotefuran, which is not marketed as of yet) is by no means "banned" in Germany. Its registration for use in sunflower and maize seed treatment has been withdrawn as well as strict safety measures superimposed on its applications with regards to potential pollinators toxicity, but in fact, neonicotinoids are by far the most used agricultural insecticides in Germany by the volume. Cheers,--147.251.68.47 (talk) 12:01, 26 April 2012 (UTC)