Talk:Closet drama

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Misled part

This part is simply misled, as the view of academy is TODAY that senecan drama was to be recited indoor:

"Beginning with Friedrich von Schlegel, many have argued that the tragedies of Seneca the Younger in the first century AD were written to be recited at small parties rather than performed. Although that theory has become widely pervasive in the history of theater, there is no evidence to support the contention that his plays were intended to be read or recited at small gatherings of the wealthy." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.148.213.35 (talk) 22:45, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just a refence on the contrary, E. Britannica:

"Senecan tragedy, body of nine closet dramas (i.e., plays intended to be read rather than performed), written in blank verse by the Roman Stoic philosopher Seneca in the 1st century ad. Rediscovered by Italian humanists in the mid-16th century, they became the models for the revival of tragedy on the Renaissance stage. The two great, but very different, dramatic traditions of the age—French Neoclassical tragedy and Elizabethan tragedy—both drew inspiration from Seneca."

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/534423/Senecan-tragedy

I'm afraid it's Britannica that's anachronistic there. The scholarly consensus leans towards performance for Seneca. • DP • ^{huh?} 02:27, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Closet play

Why was the sentence "Some call it 'closet play'. "　undone?
"closet play" is a synonym of "closet drama".
See this page↓.
http://www.dict.cc/deutsch-englisch/Lesedrama.html
Furui gang 09:39, 12 October 2007 (UTC)furui gang[reply]

A reference in an entry from an online German-English dictionary doesn't provide evidence of critical use of 'closet play'; I don't believe that the term is in use, but if you have a scholarly work that contradicts that belief, by all means cite it. DionysosProteus 13:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean that ,because "closet play" is not a technical term of literary criticism, the new description I wrote is an inappropriate expression for an article of Wikipedia's even though ordinary people use this phrase in daily life?
If you say yes,I understand.
Furui gang 14:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC)furui gang[reply]

For a 'fact' to appear in wikipedia, it must be established by appearing in a reputable source. The idea behind this, as I understand it, is that if someone else wants to dispute that fact, they can go check the original source for themselves. This is part of the no original research rule. I've studied drama widely (by which I mean in several different places/cultures) and have yet to encounter anyone using the term 'closet play', either in print or in discussions; closet drama, on the other hand, is used. I'm happy to stand corrected, if that's a mistaken assessment. DionysosProteus 14:59, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If I write "Some call it 'closet play' ,though this is not a term of literary criticism but a popular expression.",　will you undo it?
Furui gang 16:51, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course - see necessity for sources offered above. To my knowledge, anyone that does use that term does so incorrectly. DionysosProteus 17:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean that ,also as a popular expression,　'closet play' 　is incorrect?
Is the online German-English dictionary which I showed above also an incorrect dictionary?
Furui gang 17:54, 12 October 2007 (UTC)Furui gang[reply]

If it is a 'popular expression', you should have little difficulty locating a reputable source that uses it. I suspect this will be difficult, though. If you think about it, it is precisely in the subtle difference between 'drama' and 'play' that a 'closet' piece exists; it is a drama that is not played. DionysosProteus 18:47, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is it a drama that is studied? LOL. ApolloOG3 05:52, 14 October 2007 (UTC)ApolloOG3[reply]

Brian Norman is a scholar. A term 'closet play' is so popular as to let him coin such a derivative phrase　as 'closet screenplay'. It's difficult to judge that he coined the phrase without having heard 'closet play' in his life. A popularity of the term "closet play" is indirectly proved by the fact that his essay is included in "African American Review",which is a scholarly work . --A dragon's child 13:33, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your reasoning is a little out there, I believe. The common critical term is 'closet drama'; it is from that term that Norman has coined 'closet screenplay'. As indicated above, if it's so popular, you'd have no difficulty locating direct uses. DionysosProteus 13:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But 'closet screenplay' is more like 'closet play' than 'closet drama' in the appearance. --A dragon's child 14:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)A dragon's child[reply]

Like I say, if you believe it's a phase in use, go ahead and find a reputable source that uses it. I imagine, though, your search will be long and fruitless, since the term everyone I've ever encountered that spoke of such things used is 'closet drama'. DionysosProteus 14:17, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"closet play" was used seven times.↓
http://www.rc.umd.edu/reviews/back/jewettsimpson.html
Catherine Burroughs （Wells College and Cornell University）

"closet play" was used once.↓
http://www.erudit.org/revue/ron/1998/v/n12/005820ar.html
Thomas C. Crochunis （The LAB at Brown University）

Will DionysosProteus be satisfied？
--Hermes the Merchant 20:11, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is it really necessary to keep adopting new names? The second source you cite doesn't do the work you claim for it; it only mentions 'play' in the context of their suitability for theatrical production. Burroughs doesn't seem to make a theoretical point anywhere; looks like she's just being imprecise, no? DionysosProteus 00:50, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Catherine Burroughs studies Joanna Baillie whose works were wished to be played or performed but were labeled as closet dramas . I think that Burroughs used or coined 'closet play' in order to express the situation in which Baillie and the same kind as her had been standing.--Hermes the Merchant 20:41, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then you contradict yourself. If the plays were intended to be performed, then they were not closet dramas, and 'closet play' is not a synonym of 'closet drama'. If she says what you think she says, then you need to cite her. DionysosProteus 22:30, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

＞If the plays were intended to be performed, then they were not closet dramas

There can be an option or a strategy of publishing a text written in script form as a closet drama for the time being and arriving at the presentation with capital of the fame won by the text. Even if this strategy falls through and the text is not performed, the literary value will survive. In this case, because an author who writes the text gives priority to readability, it can not be said that the text is not a closet drama.
And I didn't say ' intended'. I said ' wished'. The choice of the verb was intentional. --Hermes the Merchant 01:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are missing a crucial element of 'closet dramas'. Because they are designed to be read rather than staged, they are written in a different way. This is what makes them different from merely unstaged plays. Look at Peer Gynt then read any of Ibsen's other plays and the difference is obvious. Without that difference, the term is useless as a critical tool; it describes nothing. DionysosProteus 13:46, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

However, according to your teaching, "Peer Gynt" was performed (whether it was remade to be suitable for a stage or not, anyway). ' The text' I gave as an example above may be such a thing as it.

I think that a study of 'a classic', which is referring not to a work or an author of ancient Greece or Rome but simply to a past one, should be done not for itself but for the present time.Then, the study metaphorically solves contemporary problems.
The use of videotapes or DVD's or Videos-On-Demand spread or has spread or is spreading; Quentin Tarantino who had been just a clerk at a video rental shop became a Cinderella boy with the ability to write a script; Darius James made his debut with 'a novel in screenplay form' and was offered a film adaptation of the novel by Oliver Stone though it was not realized; "The Last Words of Dutch Schultz" was not filmed until about thirty years passed after the publication of the book and was filmed on a small scale; A scholar who studies the period of British Romanticists coined an odd term 'closet play' and another scholar who studies Afro-American literature coined an odder term 'closet screenplay'. These phenomena make up a constellation and the term 'closet play' is significant in the constellation.

Here is a book written in script form which prefers to be read and which doesn't refuse a stage adaptation and which rather wishes it. It can be called both 'closet drama' and 'closet play'. This case satisfies a definition of 'synonyms' : "different words with identical or at least similar meanings". The each term refers to the same book from a subtly different viewpoint.--Hermes the Merchant 14:42, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ubik:the screenplay

"One Day when I was lost"　was also written to be filmed but it was called "closet screenplay" by Norman.--A dragon's child 22:27, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then his use of the term is invalidated by that application. A closet drama is written without production in mind. If the term is extended to the cinema, it has to mean the same thing, otherwise all you have is a screenplay, pure and simple. DionysosProteus 23:02, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's too literal. If a screenplay gets isolated from or independent on film production as a result for some reason and if it is written by a writer with literary fame and published as a literary work, it can be called "closet screenplay" in transferred meaning. --A dragon's child 00:32, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Absolute nonsense. It is simply an unproduced screenplay, just like a play that doesn't get performed is an unproduced drama. What do you think 'closet' means, anyhow? DionysosProteus 00:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, see my addition "and published as a literary work". --A dragon's child 00:52, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

＞What do you think 'closet' means, anyhow?
An adjective 'closet' is a derivative of a noun 'closet',which means a private and small room. And that room is not for a writer or a producer but for a reader or an audience. --A dragon's child 01:09, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Many screenplays are published. That does not make them closet dramas. That room is the intended site of reception in contrast to a theatre (whether dramatic or cinematic). This is why Burrough's novel in screenplay form would qualify. A merely unproduced screenplay, whether published or not, does not. The work is conceived with the intention not to stage it. This gives it qualities other than those to be found in ordinary plays, etc.--that is, it consciously ignores the limitations of production in the usual medium. DionysosProteus 03:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Salome" was written with intention of being put on stage by Oscar Wilde but had been prohibited from being done for a long time because of its immorality but won literary fame. In an article of a certain dictionary I've seen ,"Salome" was given as an example of 'Lesedrama'(≒closet drama). --A dragon's child 05:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

About an original meaning of 'closet drama', I respect your opinion.
However, see this page.↓
http://www.bartleby.com/61/79/C0417900.html

Where is such a description as "intend to ignore a theatre absolutely" or "should be written against a stage absolutely"？ A phrase 'rather than' means 'relatively' rather than 'absolutely'. The definition of this dictionary is nearer to my opinion than yours. According to this dictionary,my opinion is more literal. ---A dragon's child 10:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is getting very tiring. There are plays and there are closet dramas. One is meant to be played, the other to be read. That's the difference. Even that minimal internet source you cite says "A play to be read rather than performed" - that is intention. Not a play that is read - that's just a simple play. The same goes for screenplay. Otherwise, the term 'closet' is utterly meaningless; it signifies nothing different from its non-closet relatives. Salome isn't a closet drama; I doubt the source you are citing is reputable if it claims it is. I suspect you are dealing with a German concept. I said nothing about "intend to ignore a theatre absolutely"; it is intended to be read rather than performed; the absolute / relative distinction is yours alone. Many closet dramas have been performed - Peer Gynt, the plays of Byron - but they are still closet dramas because their authors intended them to be read rather than performed. If you want a more expansive definition, as I've said repeatedly above, find a reputable source that offers one; stretching out flimsy points is no substitute for that. DionysosProteus 11:30, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Magic is not mentioned in this article...

...however, closet drama is mentioned in the following navbox that I noticed at Church of Satan:

If the concept is used in that system enough for it to be listed, should the methods be discussed in this article if there are valid refs? Sorry all I can do is point this out! Thanks! — Geekdiva (talk) 08:27, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]