Talk:Clog dance (British)

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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:13, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Welsh tradition?

Following the one reference given- it appears we have an unbroken tradition that was established by the web-site owner in 1980. I think that another reference is needed - and one that is notable- before we can be so effusive. Oes 'na rywun all ein helpu? -- Clem Rutter (talk) 18:51, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed move of Clog-dancing to Clog dance

Following on from a discussion on Talk:Clogging and in response to a request from User:RHaworth on my talk page, I am proposing the move of Clog-dancing to Clog dance. This will align with existing articles such as Morris dance, Tap dance, Folk dance and Square dance. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:21, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I fully agree. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 22:40, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Dancing at weaving looms

"Workers sitting at the weaving machines wore hard-soled shoes, which they would tap to the rhythms of the machines to keep their feet warm."

These is no citation for this claim, which I find very dubious at best. I think someone has been romancing here.

OK, why clogs? Not because of wet floors as is claimed (in fact the citation used does not mention wet floors) there was a humidity level kept in the *spinning* areas of cotton mills especially during the winter when they would have been heated. Heating created the usual dry atmosphere encountered by anyone who has central heating and the humidity was needed for spinning cotton. But, wet floors? No.

So, why wear clogs?

Easy.

They were cheap, hard wearing and worn in all industrial areas in the 19th and early 20th Centuries. ie. not just Lancashire. Later they became a signifier of poverty and people generally stopped wearing them.

No factory worker sat at weaving looms. A worker would have been responsible for several (up to half a dozen) looms and there would have been no scope whatsoever for simply sitting down. The situation was similar in spinning processes and in the fibre preparation processes such as carding. Workers worked long hard shifts, on their feet which would have been tired but not cold. Remember, cotton mills were heated in winter and made draught proof because of the need for warmth especially in spinning.

Another consideration is the noise. When halls of 19th century spinning or weaving machines are set in motion they make an incredible din. This is not a nice rhythmic clackety clack, but the sound of hundreds of wheels, drums and bobbins, turning, grinding, clicking and rattling. One single machine does not really give the full flavour, imagine whole floors of mills with dozens of these machines on the go at once. The idea of a worker tapping in time with a loom is a romantic illusion.

It's right to say it was an incredible din. Mill workers could not hear each other properly over the noise of the machines and were forced to learn to use hand signals and lip read. Many mill workers went deaf later in life.

With all this going on, it seems a pretty remote possiblility and rather whimsical to think that clog dancing started *in* the mills.

Without a pretty tight and authorative citation, I think this section needs revision. Ecadre (talk) 20:39, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Brady (2010) talks about the workers emulating the sound of the machines. So I agree that this passage seems to be a bit fanciful. However Dobson (1864) page 32 (reference 3 on the main page) talks about sprinkling the floors with water in some mills and in others the provision of channels to conduct water across the spinning floor. You accept the need for high humidity, natural evaporation from open water is the easiest (cheapest) way to ensure this. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:25, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

From Humidity in cotton spinning (1895)

The simplest method of increasing the humidity of
the air in a room is by sprinkling water upon the floor and trusting to the natural evaporation which, of course, is more speedy with high temperatures than with low. This is known, in Lancashire, as " degging," and is practised to an extent hardly thought of, especially in manufactories unprovided with more perfect systems — more perfect only as referring to its automatic supply, because evaporation from a regularly sprinkled floor secures a diffusion of humidity, the regularity of which cannot be surpassed. But the system is troublesome, requires manual labour, is dependent upon the exactness of an individual, and the continual dampness of the floor is often supposed to cause rheumatic afflictions to the workpeople. Again, in some weaving sheds, channels have been made in the floor which have been partially filled up with bricks, making a perfectly level surface, with interstices. These channels drain down, generally, to one end or side of the room and the water is allowed to flow through the channels, the idea being that the bricks will absorb the water and render it, by evaporation, to the room. Further, these channels have, as a rule,
been taken under the looms.

Also, there's some interesting information on the song "Poverty knock" here Not a particularly reliable source but it sounds quite feasible that the song was written to emulate the sound of the shuttles. And looking for information I found a couple of useful articles here and here. Richerman (talk) 00:24, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's the Dobson (1864) text. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:19, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Degging happened- and the 1895 text provides a reference, but I can find no reference to support that it had owt to with clog-dancing, or to support the notion in our text. I don't think we are ever likely to find one. Rolling back to the folk revival of the 1960, the participants were mainly Middle Class folk trying to maintain what they saw as traditional peasant culture. Cecil Sharp, the great collector was revered- and with an education at Uppingham and Cambridge defining his background. I suspect that this little story was fabricated to give background and colour to an early stepping hornpipe they had discovered. The story does sound good to the middle class audience- but folk was an aural tradition so written sources are almost definitely false.

Looking at the text- what is a weaving-machine? Anyone who had ever seen one called it a loom. The Hattersley Domestic Loom was operated by treadles- by the operator who sat- but their feet were fully occupied. The workers in a shed would operate a end of 4, then 8 looms then more looms. The looms were driven by belts, and a end would be brought on line together. It is true though that within the 'white noise' of a full shed a tenter (operator) would be able to sense (hear) a problem on one of her looms when standing over it. The belting going over the drive wheels did give a rhythm to a shed, and it maybe when hearing that, Middle class Cecil could have dreamed up the story.

Early editions of the EFDSS journal may give a clue. But we do need a reference or a sharp pair of scissors. Clem Rutter (talk) 00:29, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There's an interesting story about Cecil Sharp's snobbery here. Richerman (talk) 07:06, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank goodness that we do have a fairly full article Mary Neal- or that would be something else to put on my Worrylist! -- Clem Rutter (talk) 09:06, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there's stuff in the Guardian article that could be added to it......:-) Richerman (talk) 10:33, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Clem, the Dobson text pushes the earliest reference to degging back 30 years. I think the point about the clogs and degging is not that degging led to clog dancing, but that people whose footwear were clogs (both poverty and degging) continued to wear them when relaxing. So, yes - each has something to do with the other, but no - there is no direct cause from one to the other. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:19, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Clog dancing

It looks as though someone started merging these two pages and then did not redirect this one. Most of the content from this page has been copy and pasted over to that page already. As such, I will be redirecting this page. Worriedwallace (talk) 20:35, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]