Talk:Clobenzorex

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Clobenzorex. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060911115701/http://www.sat-tox.org/galveston.html to http://www.sat-tox.org/galveston.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 15:58, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Analog

Clobenzorex is an analog of Amphetamine

Clobenzorex is an analog of Amphetamine. Structurally it is N-(2-chlorobenzyl)amphetamine. It's an analog of Amphetamine of which we attached a 2-chlorobenzyl group at the nitrogen position on Amphetamines structure. You can look at an image of it's structure and see that it's an analog of Amphetamine.

In the United States, any substance that is a structural or functional analog of a Schedule I or Schedule II substance shall be treated as that substance under the Federal Analogue Act but only when it's specifically sold for human consumption. It's perfectly legal to have and hold until it's sold or used for human consumption.

If you ask the DEA if Clobenzorex is a "controlled substance" they will tell you no Clobenzorex is not a controlled substance. Because it's not. It's not on the controlled substance act and it's not an isomer of anything on the controlled substance act. The federal analog act was made specifically to apply to substances not on the controlled substance act, to apply to substances that are not controlled, but are structural or functional analogs of them.

Saying this does not apply because Clobenzorex also an analog of Benzphetamine (N-Benzyl-N-Methyl-Amphetamine) has no bearings for enforcing the federal analog act. Benzphetamine is an FDA approved drug and scheduled separately in Schedule III. This does not exclude the fact Amphetamine is a Schedule II and that Clobenzodrex is an analog of Amphetamine. If this defense was used in court it would be used to prove the defendant knows Clobenzorex is clearly an analog of Amphetamine. Gettinglit (talk) 02:34, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Clobenzorex is not an analog of Amphetamine. Thus, clobenzorex is not a controlled substance.

Regardless of any similarities, the DEA does not consider Clobenzorex to be an analog of Amphetamine or any other Schedule II substance, as it would make it a Schedule II substance.

Rather, clobenzorex is an analog of Benzphetamine, which is recognized by the DEA as a Schedule III substance. Thus, it does not fall under the Federal Analog Act (which falls under the Controlled Substance Act) since the FAA only covers Schedule I and II substances and their analogs. Thus, clobenzorex is not a controlled substance or listed chemical under the CSA.

Benzphetamine is also not recognized by the DEA as an analog of Amphetamine or any other Schedule II substance, as this would place benzphetamine under Schedule II.

Note: Possession of any Schedule I & II analog may carry the same criminal penalties as possession of a Schedule I & II substance, regardless of intent to consume.

According to the DEA: "A substance (not included on these lists) may also be regulated as a controlled substance analogue. A controlled substance analogue is a substance which is intended for human consumption, is structurally substantially similar to a SCHEDULE I or SCHEDULE II substance, is pharmacologically substantially similar to a SCHEDULE I or SCHEDULE II substance, or is represented as being similar to a SCHEDULE I or SCHEDULE II substance and is not an approved medication in the United States. See 21 U.S.C. § 802(32)(A) for the definition of a controlled substance analogue and 21 U.S.C. § 813 for the schedule. (https://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/schedules/orangebook/orangebook.pdf)

To clear up any confusion, the DEA Diversion Control Division was contacted directly and asked about the scheduling of clobenzorex. Their official response is that it is not a controlled substance. The letter can be seen below:

"The Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) conducted a scientific review of the chemical structure of this substance in accordance with the definitions within the CSA and its implementing regulations. Based on this review, DEA determined that N-(2-chlorobenzyl)-1-phenylpropan-2-amine (clobenzorex) is not a controlled substance or listed chemical under the CSA." (https://imgur.com/MDUoDT4) Ak543210 (talk) 12:35, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello, @Gettinglit and @Ak543210, and welcome to the English Wikipedia. This article looks like it could use some improvements, so I'm glad to see two people who are actually interested in improving it.

I think the first thing we need to get clear on is that this is not the "U.S. Federal Wikipedia", so how one country's laws do or don't apply is not actually very important. But if we're going to have something about any country's laws, it would be ideal for that information to be supplied with some solid sources. The source needs to be Wikipedia:Reliable, and it needs say something in plain language like "Clobenzorex is/isn't an analogue as far as this law is concerned" – so plainly and clearly that even someone who knows nothing at all about the subject would be forced to agree that the source Wikipedia:Directly supports whatever sentence(s) we end up putting in the article about this. If we have to look at definitions and contemplate chemical reactions, it's not a good source. And, for better or worse, a scanned copy of a letter that is allegedly from the government agency in question isn't reliable, because we've had problems with those being faked in the past. (If the same letter were posted on the dea.gov website, then it would be reliable.)

Second, there seems to be a difference between "an analog according to science" and "an analog according to various county's laws". This article should focus on the universal scientific concepts, rather than how different countries handle it.

Finally, it's banned by WADA (in-competition testing), so the description about sports is probably wrong. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:05, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

It looks like it's illegal to possess in the UK: https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/dieter-avoids-jail-after-buying-13842992

US Major League Baseball reported one positive doping test last year: https://apnews.com/article/mlb-health-sports-covid-canada-34379657a41e5a796ddba5f718e3107a WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:10, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

if needed, i can forward you the email from the DEA with their letter attached. i assure you this letter is not fake, only the name and address is blacked out by myself for privacy reasons.

or you can email the DEA and request one yourself, to prove that the letter i provided is indeed authentic. their email address is in the letter. Ak543210 (talk) 07:03, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

It's not about whether I believe you (because I do). It's about whether our policies accept it (which they don't). WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:42, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I believe the paper is from the DEA, but the fact is that letter has nothing to do anything regarding the federal analog act. It's asking for the controlled substance status. It's not a controlled substance. The federal analog act applies to substances that are not controlled substances but are analogs of Schedule I and Schedule II substances.

Ask the DEA "is clobenzorex a structural or functional analog of Amphetamine if sold for human consumption." and there would be some merit but this is basically asking if this is a controlled substance itself which if it was it would be excluded from the federal analog act. 21 U.S.C. § 802(32) - (C) Such term does not include - (i) a controlled substance;

If not seriously misinformed on what that paper means, they are purposely going out of their way to interpret it incorrectly to support a narrative. Gettinglit (talk) 21:50, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

perhaps out of curiosity, and for the sake of knowledge itself and knowing the truth i really do advise you, or any other readers who are reading this comments section to send a free email to the DEA, and confirm the letter you receive from them with the letter i posted, to verify its legitimacy. it will cost nothing, and as you said, the uninformed will get a straight and direct answer. they usually respond asking for your address, then reply back with their official determination after two weeks or so. Ak543210 (talk) 21:50, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Which once again has nothing to do with the federal analog act. But you seem to keep ignoring this fact. Gettinglit (talk) 22:14, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

please then provide proof that the DEA considers clobenzorex an analog of a Schedule II substance. Ak543210 (talk) 22:40, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Read the federal analogue act and you'd know because it's both a structural analog and functional analog of Amphetamine and that's all that is required to meet the definition. Gettinglit (talk) 00:13, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

the DEA does not consider it an analog of Amphetamine, a Schedule II substance. hence, the DEA does not consider it a Schedule II substance. Ak543210 (talk) 00:30, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

You are lying. The DEA never said that in the paper because that's not what they where asked. They confirmed it's not a controlled substance.

If it was a controlled substance the federal analog act wouldn't apply at all to it "(C) Such term does not include - (i) a controlled substance;" Gettinglit (talk) 00:47, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

provide proof please. Ak543210 (talk) 00:53, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I must have tagged the proof 3 times, if you're too lazy to read federal analogue act has a great summary.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-100/pdf/STATUTE-100-Pg3207.pdf

And the part about the federal analog act starts right above "100 STAT. 3207-14"

"TREATMENT OF CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE ANALOGUES 21 use 813. "SEC. 203. A controlled substance analogue shall, to the extent 21 use 951. intended for human consumption, be treated, for the purposes of this title and title III as a controlled substance in schedule I.". SEC. 1203. DEFINITION. Section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802) is ' ' amended by adding at the end thereof the following: "(32)(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), the term 'controlled substance analogue' means a substance— "(i) the chemical structure of which is substantially similar to the chemical structure of a controlled substance in schedule I or II;

"(ii) which has a stimulant, depressant, or hallucmogenic effect on the central nervous system that is substantially similar to or greater than the stimulent, depressant, or hallucinogenic effect on the central nervous system of a controlled substance in schedule I or II; or "(iii) with respect to a particular person, which such person represents or intends to have a stimulent, depressant, or hallucinogenic effect on the central nervous system that is substantially similar to or greater than the stimulant, depressant, or hallucinogenic effect on the central nervous system of a controlled substance in schedule I or II. > • » "(B) Such term does not include— "(i) a controlled substance; "(ii) any substance for which there is an approved new drug application; •'- "(iii) with respect to a particular person any substance, if an exemption is in effect for investigational use, for that person, under section 505 of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (21 U.S.C. 355) to the extent conduct with '•-*» t respect to such substance is pursuant to such exemption; or / - ' "(iv) any substance to the extent not intended for human consumption before such an exemption takes effect with respect to that substance." Gettinglit (talk) 01:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

yet clobenzorex remains officially not a controlled substance. while benzphetamine remains schedule III. im pretty sure the DEA has heard you argument before. but they have made their decision. hence, that is the law. Ak543210 (talk) 01:13, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

"yet clobenzorex remains not a controlled substance" yes it's not a controlled substance, that's why the federal analog act can apply to it as if you read the response right above the one you responded to it highlights in bold font "(B) Such term does not include— "(i) a controlled substance; "

Which is once again, why Benzphetamine is not charged under the federal analog act because it's an FDA approved controlled substance and scheduled separately. If it was not an FDA approved drug the federal analog act would apply to Benzphetamine. Gettinglit (talk) 01:18, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

the law does not agree with your determination and has decided that benzphetamine is a schedule III substance, while clobenzorex is not a controlled substance. Ak543210 (talk) 01:43, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I have unprotected the article. User:Ak543210 and User:Gettinglit, I'm not going to take any chances, and I will prevent the two of you from editing the article directly; edits/improvements to the article can be made by editors who were not involved in y'all's dispute, and with consensus here on the talk page. I'm sure you understand. Drmies (talk) 15:01, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

honestly, please do not allow us both to ever be able to edit this article, since as soon as the ban is lifted on both of us, user Gettinglit will possibly just edit it with his view once again and i may just follow suit. instead just allow us to post our defense here and let the other readers decide which one of us is making the most sense. Ak543210 (talk) 23:18, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

They don't care about editing the article because it has the incorrect legality information they want up currently.

Incorrect legality that was previously changed over 5x back and forth in this articles history including the origi talk page being deleted by them.

I just want people to have a clear understanding of the law so they can best protect themselves from it. The difference in being charged is having it in a capsule which implies human consumption in federal analog act cases and having it in a bag and telling a cop "I don't consume that, it's for research analysis use". But if people don't know that they cannot take precautions to protect themselves. Gettinglit (talk) 02:43, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

that is akin to saying someone can be in possession of cocaine and methamphetamine analogs, and will not be charged with drug possession as long as the container they are in says "not for human consumption".

that is very wrong. Ak543210 (talk) 02:54, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

It being used or marketed for consumption has to be proven for it to be an offense under the federal analog act. Please read the federal analogue act. However you could posses it in such a way that implies human consumption or can be linked to it like capsules for example or if you're found in possession while there's evidence of planning to distribute it for consumption.

A container can say "not for human consumption" and the prosecutors can still easily prove it was used or sold for consumption. They can do this with many many different ways from internet history, text messages, emails, self admission, evidence of it's use with paraphernalia, among many other ways. A substance just sitting in a gel capsule has been enough to mean intent for consumption in federal analog act cases. Having a not for consumption disclaimer on a bottle of it won't save you but it's better than having a bottle of capsules with dosing instructions.

However, say you are a researcher doing legitimate work on this substance and are legitimately not using it for human consumption, yes possession of 4-Fluoromethamphetamine for example is completely legal. However, it can be illegal if used or sold for human consumption under the federal analog act.

Point being, the last thing you would want to do is admit that your intent is to consume it and the false legality would lead a person who doesn't know to probably do the opposite. Gettinglit (talk) 03:16, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

as a close analog of a scheduled II controlled substance, sale or possession of 4-FMA could potentially be prosecuted under the Federal Analog Act. Ak543210 (talk) 06:48, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Clobenzorex is an analog of Amphetamine

The DEA email the other user AK543210 is an email from the drug and chemical evaluation section diversion control division Drug Enforcement Administration in response to a question for the control status. It is not a controlled substance, it's not on the CSA, it's not a prescription, it's not a precursor, it's not an isomer of a controlled substance. They are either misinterpreting by accident or on purpose, the context of the email to make it seem like it says something it does not say. The email has nothing to do with if its considered an analog of Amphetamine or not, it's an email asking the controlled substance status and it's not a controlled substance.

The federal analogue act in the United States "allows any chemical "substantially similar" to a controlled substance listed in Schedule I or II to be treated as if it were listed in Schedule I, but only if intended for human consumption." "21 U.S.C. § 802(32) (A) Except as provided in subparagraph (C), the term controlled substance analogue means a substance - (i) the chemical structure of which is substantially similar to the chemical structure of a controlled substance in schedule I or II; (ii) which has a stimulant, depressant, or hallucinogenic effect on the central nervous system that is substantially similar to or greater than the stimulant, depressant, or hallucinogenic effect on the central nervous system of a controlled substance in schedule I or II; or (iii) with respect to a particular person, which such person represents or intends to have a stimulant, depressant, or hallucinogenic effect on the central nervous system that is substantially similar to or greater than the stimulant, depressant, or hallucinogenic effect on the central nervous system of a controlled substance in schedule I or II. (C) Such term does not include - (i) a controlled substance; (iv) any substance to the extent not intended for human consumption before such an exemption takes effect with respect to that substance." (100 STAT. 3207-14)

The factors for U.S law for the federal analog act is if it's chemical structure is "substantially similar" or if it's "substantially similar to or greater than" in effect and pharmalogical action but only if it's specifically sold for human consumption. This makes a substance legal for legitimate lab use, legal to hold if you will but when it's used or marketed for human consumption is when it becomes illegal.

Some of the points presented here seem to be misinterpreting or purposely mistakening it. Such as the claim that if the DEA thinks Benzphetamine itself is an analog of Amphetamine it would be Schedule II due to the federal analog act. No, because under the federal analog act it excludes substances that are scheduled "(C) such term does not include (i) a controlled substance;". You can not be charged for Benzphetamine under the federal analog act as it's already scheduled and a controlled substance. Benzphetamine is N-Benzyl-Amphetamine, it is an Amphetamine analog specifically if we attached a Benzyl group to the Nitrogen group.

Additionally, to meet the federal analog act it must be sold for consumption. Simply having it or holding it wouldn't be illegal but selling it to someone in a capsule to consume would be. So it would not become automatically be charged as a schedule II unless the consumption was there under the federal analog act.

Clobenzorex is a structural analog of Amphetamine. Clobenzorex is N-(2-chlorobenzyl)-1-phenylpropan-2-amine while Amphetamine is 1-phenylpropan-2-amine. Clobenzorex is an N-Benzyl analog of Amphetamine but with a 2-Chloro group on the N-Benzyl. Anyone can look at its structure and see that. Could also argue it's a functional analog in addition to being a structural analog since it's proven to metabolize into Amphetamine.

All it needs to be to fit under the federal analog act is the fact it's an analog of Amphetamine. Benzphetamine being a schedule III has no bearings because Amphetamine is still a schedule II and Clobenzorex is an analog of Amphetamine. Structurally Clobenzorex is Amphetamine if we attached a 2-ChloroBenzyl group to the Nitrogen position of Amphetamine.

Actually if you go early back to the early version of this article you will see that someone changed the "Chemically, clobenzorex is an N-substituted amphetamine analog" to "Chemically, clobenzorex is an N-substituted amphetamine prodrug" Link when it said analog: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clobenzorex&diff=prev&oldid=71869035

While the original source used for the claim from a states toxicology office is gone, here's 5 chemistry related websites supporting the statement.

This issue was also brought up several times on this article but was reverted by the same person over and over https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clobenzorex&diff=prev&oldid=1062473374 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clobenzorex&diff=prev&oldid=1063430710

There seems to be a vendor in the USA openly selling Clobenzorex in capsules imported from Mexico. Funny enough the tradename is the name AK tried to add to the article here. What a coincidence. It's almost like the vendor and their customers are editing the wiki to fit a certain narrative or something. When customers or their parents google is clobenzorex legal they get this wikipedia article with incorrect information and maybe someone resells a capsule to their buddy and something goes bad and they get charged. Clobenzorex is "legal" but it is not "legal" to sell for human consumption as an analog of Amphetamine. Gettinglit (talk) 20:11, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

please refrain from personal attacks and accusations. thank you.

once again, if you have any further questions, you can email the DEA Diversion Control Division. You will recieve a response in about 2 weeks, free of charge. Ak543210 (talk) 21:09, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I didn't personally attack or accuse you of anything besides being seriously misinformed or purposely misleading. Other have edited things in the past and I do think there's something suspicious going on with edits related to people selling capsules of it in the USA.

Once again, the DEA Diversion Control Division will confirm Clobenzorex is not a controlled substance. You didn't ask them if it's an analog of Amphetamine and if there would be enforcement if sold for human consumption under the analog act, you only asked if it's a controlled substance, which it isn't. The federal analog act applies to things that are not controlled substances but are analogs of them, just because they are an analog they don't automatically become Schedule II as you seem to think, it has to be sold specifically for human consumption. Everything is explained in depth in my response if you bothered to read it. This is my point about being purposely misleading, you are going out of your way to ignore information and draw a fake narrative that does not exist and there aren't any logical conclusions for that beyond being seriously misinformed (acting in good faith) or purposely misleading (not acting in good faith). I assume you where acting in good faith but after several things have been explained you purposely ignore and repeat I find it hard to believe at this point.

I just want people to have an accurate understanding of the law so they can protect themselves from it if the time comes and take the proper precautions. If someone is caught with this during a raid in capsules, if some kid sells a capsule of it to a friend and something happens Wikipedia isn't going to be a proper defense for their ignorance of the law. Anyone with a basic understanding of chemistry and chemical structures will know Clobenzorex is an analog of Amphetamine. Anyone can visually see that by looking at their structure. Gettinglit (talk) 21:45, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@Gettinglit, it sounds like you're arguing that this "should be" legally considered an analog, through logical deduction from the scientific facts. You might be 100% correct about the science, but that doesn't matter. In terms of getting a law-related claim into the Wikipedia article, we need a source that makes a direct statement about the law.

(Also, https://www.chemeurope.com/en/encyclopedia/Clobenzorex.html is a copy of the Wikipedia article, so it's not a reliable source.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:48, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

The Federal analogue act defines it as "(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (C), the term controlled substance analogue means a substance - (i) the chemical structure of which is substantially similar to the chemical structure of a controlled substance in schedule I or II;" and "(ii) which has a stimulant, depressant, or hallucinogenic effect on the central nervous system that is substantially similar to or greater than the stimulant, depressant, or hallucinogenic effect on the central nervous system of a controlled substance in schedule I or II;"

Every Wikipedia article I see that mentions the federal analog act typically words it as "may be considered" or "would likely be considered" because it was not defined what "substantially similar structure" means and same with substantially similar in effect. All across Wikipedia this has generally been accepted to be any structural analog.

Like O-Acetylpsilocin has "O-Acetylpsilocin is ambiguously legal for use as a lab reagent or research chemical; however, it is an acetate ester of psilocin, meaning it would be considered akin to a Schedule I Controlled Substance under the Federal Analogue Act if sold for human consumption."......Well now all a vendor has to do is edit the Wikipedia and argue it's actually an analog of 4-Acetoxy-DiPT which is unscheduled or an analog of Sumatriptan which is an unscheduled tryptamine prescription drug in America and argue it's not actually an analog of Tryptamine or Psilocin but an analog of Sumatriptan and 4-Acetoxy-DiPT.

The original source for the description chemeurope is using is not from Wikipedia, but the wiki did copy it and used it as an origi source before it was changed. It was written by Shrey Reach, Charles N. Moore, and Ashraf Mozayani, Pharm. D., Ph.D., D-ABFT Office of the Harris County Medical Examiner and heres a link to it and what it says

https://web.archive.org/web/20081010181249/http://www.sat-tox.org/galveston.html

"Clobenzorex (Asenlix, Finedal, Rexigen) is an N-substituted derivative of amphetamine used since 1970 as an appetite suppressant. The drug is supplied as the hydrochloride salt of the D-(+)-enantiomer in 30 mg capsules for oral administration. It is manufactured in Mexico, but banned in the European and United States markets. Clobenzorex is metabolized via N-dealkylation to D-(+)-amphetamine. Two thousand seven hundred and forty-two unmarked green and white capsules weighing 562.72 gm. were seized from a twenty year-old white female by a Harris County law enforcement agency and submitted to the Controlled Substance Laboratory for analysis. The capsules were analyzed by chemical spot tests, ultraviolet and infrared spectrophotometry and gas chromatography/mass spectroscopy. This presentation will discuss the physical properties of clobenzorex and its identification in the submitted capsules." and it was used in reference for the Wikipedia here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clobenzorex&diff=prev&oldid=71869035 Gettinglit (talk) 22:03, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

as per the letter:

"the chemical structure shown below was used to make this determination", followed by a picture of the clobenzorex molecule in question.

meaning they have looked at its molecular structure and have decided it is not an analog of a schedule II substance. Ak543210 (talk) 21:56, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

No, it means they have looked at it and decided it's not a controlled substance. Has nothing to do with the federal analog act.

The question you're looking for is... "DEA do you think Clobenzorex is an analog of Amphetamine subject to the federal analog act if sold for human consumption?" Gettinglit (talk) 22:04, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

if it were an analog of a Schedule II substance, clobenzorex would fall under the Federal Analog Act (which is part of the Controlled Substances act), wand thus be classified as a Schedule II substance. The DEA has determined that it is not a Schedule II analog, and thus not a controlled substance.

The FAA only covers Schedule I and II analogs.

Though you are entitled to your own opinion, I advise you and other readers to reach out to the DEA themselves and send them an email.

my personal opinion: it cannot be made any clearer.

note: possession of Schedule I & II substances and their analogs may cause legal trouble. Possession of Schedule III, IV, and V may also cause legal trouble, but analogs of III, IV, and V are not covered by the FAA and CSA. Ak543210 (talk) 22:26, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

It would only fall under the federal analog act if it was specifically sold for human consumption which is on a case by case basis not a general sense.

You repeatedly saying the federal analog act is apart of the controlled substance act to make it seem like the federal analog act applies to controlled substances but if you read it you would see it specifically excludes controlled substances.

"(C) Such term does not include - (i) a controlled substance;"

It CANNOT be a controlled substance in order to be prosecuted under the federal analog act.

And Clobenzorex is not a controlled substance. That's why the federal analog act can apply to it..IF it's sold for human consumption.

Clobenzorex is Amphetamine with a 2-ChloroBenzyl group attached to the nitrogen position or Methamphetamine with the N-Methyl group replaced with an N-2-ChloroBenzyl group. It's a structural analog of a Schedule II substance, sadly that's it in addition to human consumption. That's all they need to prosecute under the federal analog act Gettinglit (talk) 00:52, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

you are entitled to your personal opinion, but the law has already stated it is not a controlled substance. Ak543210 (talk) 01:21, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

It's not a controlled substance, that's why the federal analog act can apply to it. But you keep saying the same thing over and over and I keep saying the same things in response to which you just repeat the same and ignore the factual response.

federal analogue act

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-100/pdf/STATUTE-100-Pg3207.pdf

(C) Such term does not include - (i) a controlled substance; Gettinglit (talk) 01:30, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

perhaps the official determination bears repeating since you do not agree with their law, since you have your own determination. Ak543210 (talk) 01:34, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

You keep purposely misinterpreting what that DEA paper says, you are going out of your way to preform mental gymnastic to pretend that paper means something it does not say. You can lie all day and pretend it says something it doesn't, apparently that's your strategy just spamming that to no end and hope that nobody is going to actually read my response. Gettinglit (talk) 01:36, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

i am bluntly explaining to you what the law has stated, what the law believes, and what the law has determined. Ak543210 (talk) 01:50, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

No you're not at all you're making up a stimmed fueled misinterpretation for your own benefit. Gettinglit (talk) 02:07, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

please remain civil and refrain from personal insults and false accusations. thank you. Ak543210 (talk) 02:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

the DEA letter i posted is very straightforward and to the point:

1. a scientific review was done on the substance

2. the substance was determined to not be a controlled substance

3. its chemical structure was used to make the determination. Ak543210 (talk) 01:55, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

"the substance was determined to not be a controlled substance"

Great because that's what is required for the federal analog act to apply. Keep ignoring facts. Gettinglit (talk) 02:08, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

the Federal Analog Act is a subsection of the Controlled Substances Act. clobenzorex does not fall under the CSA because it does not fall under the FAA. if clobenzorex did fall under the FAA, then it would be considered a scheduled substance under the CSA. Ak543210 (talk) 02:12, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

if the FAA can apply to it, then being that the FAA falls under the CSA, it would be considered a controlled substance under the CSA. as the letter states, clobenzorex does not fall under the CSA. it is an analog of a schedule III substance, which the DEA has determined is not an analog of a schedule II substance. that is the official law. Ak543210 (talk) 01:41, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

The federal analog act is a subsection of the controlled substance act to apply to substances that are analogs of controlled substances of Schedule I and Schedule II but are not controlled substances themselves. They are completely legal until it's sold for human consumption.

Clobenzorex is an analog of Amphetamine (Schedule II) and thus also an analog of Benzphetamine which is an analog of Amphetamine (Schedule II). It sadly doesn't matter that Benzphetamine is a Schedule III as long as Amphetamine is a Schedule II.

The DEA HAS NOT determined anything like what you said, you are purposely spreading false information and it has been addressed so many times that it's clear you're acting in bad faith, what the DEA has determined is that it's not a controlled substance. The federal analog act does not apply to controlled substances.

You didn't ask them if they consider it an analog of a controlled substance, you asked if it was itself a controlled substance which it's not. Gettinglit (talk) 02:12, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

the DEA has determined clobenzorex is not a controlled substance and does not fall under the CSA. hence is cannot be considered an analog of a Schedule I and II substance. Ak543210 (talk) 02:14, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

why do you not believe that clobenzorex is an analog of benzphetamine, if you insist that people should look at the structure? Ak543210 (talk) 22:50, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Guys, I'm sure this would be an interesting discussion to have on social media, but what's needed here is a Wikipedia:Published (e.g., not an alleged e-mail uploaded by somebody on the internet) reliable source that says what the US legal status actually is. It should use words like "This drug is {okay|banned|} under US federal law". It should not use words like "Well, if you look at the chemical diagram, and if you know something about chemistry, then you should be able to tell that..." WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:19, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

that is why i encourage others to chime in and email the DEA themselves, so in order to confirm the legitimacy of the letter. though they will ask for your name and address, so i advise that people keep that private. Ak543210 (talk) 23:23, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

The letter you posted has nothing to do with the federal analog act. Please do email the DEA and ask them if they consider Clobenzorex an analog of Amphetamine if sold for human consumption under the federal analog act. Gettinglit (talk) 00:15, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

the FAA is is a subsection of the CSA: if it falls under the FAA, it falls under the established CSA. being that clobenzorex does not fall under the FAA, then it does not fall under the CSA. Thus clobenzorex is not a controlled substance.

the CSA establishes what non-analogous substances are controlled, from Schedule I to V. The FAA establishes that analogs of I and II are controlled. Ak543210 (talk) 00:24, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

The federal analog act was specifically designed in order to prevent structural analogs of already schedule I and II drugs from being sold before they are invented. Previously you could just throw a N-FluoroBenzyl on Meth and put it in a pill until the federal analog act was made to prevent things like that.

The federal analog act applies to substances that are not controlled substances themselves, but are controlled substance analogs.

But once again, there needs to be proof that such a substance is used for human consumption in order to be charged under the federal analog act. Perfectly legal until you consume it or sell it to another person to consume. Gettinglit (talk) 00:33, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

the DEA does not agree with your determination. Ak543210 (talk) 01:57, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

The federal analogue act would be the law

TREATMENT OF CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE ANALOGUES 21 use 813. "SEC. 203. A controlled substance analogue shall, to the extent 21 use 951. intended for human consumption, be treated, for the purposes of this title and title III as a controlled substance in schedule I."

(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (C), the term controlled substance analogue means a substance -

(i) the chemical structure of which is substantially similar to the chemical structure of a controlled substance in schedule I or II;

That's why the "well if you look at the structure" is accurate here because that's quite literally what a district attorney would do to prosecute it, they would hold up 2 pictures to a judge/jury of their structures and show them clearly it's an structural analog of Amphetamine. Gettinglit (talk) 00:28, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

the DEA, a branch of the Department of Justice, has determined that it is not an analog of a Schedule I and II substance. Hence the official determination of it being an uncontrolled substance. Ak543210 (talk) 00:32, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

That's not what the DEA paper said at all and that's not what was asked of them. The federal analog act does not even apply to controlled substances themselves "(C) Such term does not include - (i) a controlled substance;" This is evidence you are purposely going out of your way to lie and be misleading. They confirmed it's an uncontrolled substance which it is, it's not scheduled or a prescription or a watched precursor.

The federal analog act was made for and applies to drugs that are uncontrolled substances but are structural analogs of them and when specifically sold for human consumption, otherwise it's completely legal. Gettinglit (talk) 00:36, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

once again, the FAA is a subsection of the CSA. hence, clobenzorex does not fall under the CSA. Ak543210 (talk) 01:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

No that's going out of your way to misinterpret things. Please read the federal analogue act.

The federal analog act does not apply to controlled substances. If it is a controlled substance it cannot be prosecuted under the federal analog act as it's made to apply to analogs of controlled substances of the Schedule I and Schedule II class. Gettinglit (talk) 01:32, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

you are entitled to your opinion, but the DEA has already made their official stance regarding clobenzorex and benzphetamine. Ak543210 (talk) 02:00, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Because it's like saying the federal analog act doesn't apply to O-Acetylpsilocin because it's also an analog of Sumatriptan which is an FDA approved prescription, unscheduled and excluded from the federal analog act. But it would be completely ignoring the fact Psilocin is scheduled among other tryptamines like DMT it would be an analog of.

Clobenzorex being an analog of Benzephetamine has no barings. If anything the district attorney would use it to prove you knew Clobenzorex is an analog of Amphetamine since Benzephetamine is an analog of MethAmphetamine which is an analog of Amphetamine.

We attached the N-2-ChloroBenzyl group to Amphetamine.

We replaced the N-Methyl group of methamphetamine with a N-2-ChloroBenzyl group.

That's what Clobenzorex is. And that's it sadly, that's exactly what the the federal analog act was designed to cover. Doesn't matter that Benzphetamine is a Schedule III as long as Amphetamine and Methamphetamine are Schedule IIs. Gettinglit (talk) 00:43, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

it does matter because clobenzorex is an analog of what is considered a Schedule III substance, thus not falling under the FAA or CSA which only covers Schedule I and II substance analogs. Ak543210 (talk) 00:51, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

If we completely ignore the fact that it's an analog of a Schedule II substance Amphetamine that would be correct but Amphetamine is a Schedule II and Clobenzorex is an analog of Amphetamine. Benzphetamine being Schedule III has no bearing on it. Gettinglit (talk) 00:57, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

what you are ignoring is that it is an analog of Schedule III benzphetamine. hence the official determination of not falling under the FAA and CSA. Ak543210 (talk) 00:58, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

what you are ignoring is that it is an analog of Schedule II Amphetamine. Hence why you didn't ask the DEA that and the DEA letter says nothing in regard. You've confirmed Clobenzorex is not a controlled substance, which the federal analog was made to apply to. Gettinglit (talk) 01:05, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

despite benzphetamine being metabolized in vivo into amphetamine and methamphetamine, benzphetamine itself remains Schedule III. Ak543210 (talk) 01:00, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

That's because it's a controlled substance and excluded from the federal analog act because of it. It's also scheduled separately in of itself so even if it wasn't it still wouldn't apply. If Benzphetamine was never FDA approved it would fall under the FAA. Gettinglit (talk) 01:11, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

yet benzphetamine remains Schedule III. once again, you are entitled to your personal opinions. but that is the law. Ak543210 (talk) 01:18, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Which has nonrelevance at all since Amphetamine is a schedule II and Clobenzorex is an analog of Amphetamine. It would be used in court to prove you know Clobenzorex is an analog. Gettinglit (talk) 01:20, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

the law has stated it is not a controlled substance as per molecule structure. please refer to the official DEA letter. Ak543210 (talk) 01:23, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

It's not a controlled substance, I never said it was. The federal analog act specifically excludes controlled substances so if it was a controlled substance the federal analog act wouldn't apply. Gettinglit (talk) 01:28, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

you say it is not a controlled substance, then say it is an analog of a controlled substance; if the latter were true it would be considered a controlled substance. but the law (DEA) has determined it is not. Ak543210 (talk) 01:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

No it's not. You just have a very very severe lack of understanding or even worse misunderstanding of what you're trying to talk about and it's near scary.

Something is not a controlled substance simply because it's an analog of a controlled substance, it must be sold for human consumption for it to be charged under the federal analog act. But I stated this also 50 times but it doesn't fit your misinformation narrative so you keep going over it despite it being your saving grace as it points out how you could legally have the product without being at risk of arrest (don't have it in a capsule or with dosing information) it's illegal only when specifically sold for human consumption. Gettinglit (talk) 02:17, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

mere possession of a Schedule I and II analog may carry the same criminal penalties as possessing a non-analogous Schedule I and II substance.

clobenzorex is not a controlled substance, because it is not an analog of a Schedule I and II substance. Ak543210 (talk) 02:20, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

No, only if it's used or sold for human consumption. Mere possession otherwise wouldn't be illegal. This is clearly outlined in federal analogue act and mentioned several times here which you continue to ignore and spread false information instead.

For example, once again

-the federal analog act does not apply to controlled substances.

-the federal analog act only applies if it's used or sold for human consumption

A substance can be an analog of a controlled substance and it's possession is completely legal, it's only when it's used for consumption it's illegal under the federal analog act.

Your comment here and elsewhere is proof you lack a back understanding of what you're trying to talk about or are purposely going out of your way to act in bad faith to spread false information for some benefit. Gettinglit (talk) 02:49, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

the law does not agree with your determination. Ak543210 (talk) 01:26, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

that is the law. Ak543210 (talk) 01:03, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

"Itravil" is an actual brand name of clobenzorex, along with Asenlix, Dinintel, and Finedal. please refrain from making false accusations about "vendors". Ak543210 (talk) 01:47, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

It's also the brand name your buddy sells online after importing it from Mexico. That's probably why you added it to the wiki and are purposely going out of your way to spread false information and are clearly acting in bad faith. Gettinglit (talk) 02:14, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

once again, please refrain from false accusations. i have already notified the moderator. for the sake of fairness i have requested that we both never be able to edit the main article, ever. let the readers decide. Ak543210 (talk) 02:17, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Nothing false about it.

Here's the DEA image you linked here several times also being linked in this users comment. Not just the same photo of the letter. The exact same imgur link you used here. This is the first time this link and image appears on the internet. Reviewing your comment history you mention that you used this wikipedia page in order to convince someone else of it's legality. How fitting.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Stims/comments/12hxr77/comment/jfrtlbw/

You are dependent on this Wikipedia article having false legality information. Gettinglit (talk) 02:25, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

whatever it is that you personally believe, the DEA has officially determined that clobenzorex is not a controlled substance. Ak543210 (talk) 02:30, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

References

Other sections

I've added some typical section headings, and if you've got ideas about sentences + reliable sources that could be used to fill them in, please make suggestions here.

I saw a hint about this drug being available in the US for a while, and then being withdrawn due to side effects. That's the kind of thing that should be in the ==History== section. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:21, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

being that it was previously available in the USA, then it is known to be intended for human consumption, since it was marketed as a weight loss medication. though clobenzorex is no longer an approved medication in the USA, it was intended for human consumption. yet to this day it still remains an uncontrolled substance. this invalidates the other users claim. Ak543210 (talk) 00:16, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

It wasn't ever FDA approved in the USA, please do feel free to look into it.

Your logic is flawed, even if it was an approved medication the federal analog act doesn't apply to it because prescriptions are controlled substances and the federal analog act specifically excludes controlled substances. Gettinglit (talk) 00:44, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

even if it was never approved, it still officially remains to be not a controlled substance. Ak543210 (talk) 00:49, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

It's not a controlled substance, I've must of said that 50 times with you. And it's only illegal if it's specifically sold for human consumption.

The federal analog act specifically only applies to substances that are NOT controlled substances.

The federal analog act specifically excludes substances that are controlled substance.

If it's a controlled substance = cannot be charged under federal analog act

If it's not a controlled substance = can be charged under the federal analog act

Federal analog act - (C) Such term does not include - (i) a controlled substance; Gettinglit (talk) 00:54, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

if its not a controlled substance then why do you saying its an analog of a Schedule II substance when the DEA has determined it is not. Ak543210 (talk) 00:55, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

It is an analog of Amphetamine, it's amphetamine with a 2-chlorobenzyl group attached to the nitrogen or an analog of MethAmphetamine if the N-Methyl group was replaced with 2-chlorobenzyl group.

That has nothing to do with if it's a controlled substance or not. Controlled substances are scheduled drugs, prescriptions, restricted precursors.

The federal analog act specifically applies to substances that are NOT controlled substances.

The federal analog act was made to combat structural analogs of controlled substances. And again, it's only considered illegal under the federal analog act if it's specifically sold for consumption. Gettinglit (talk) 01:04, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

that is not what the law believes. that is what you believe. Ak543210 (talk) 01:05, 18 May 2023 (UTC)