Talk:Claude Ferguson

Not neutral point of view

Much of this - unreferenced - is written as a pro-Ferguson, anti-agency screed. David notMD (talk) 16:34, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

@David notMD: I think that's probably due to the fact the article was created by his son, who meant well but seems to almost certainly have been unaware of WP:COISELF, etc. There's way too much unsourced content which might need to be trimmed or removed altogether but perhaps now that others are involved this will be accomplished through cleanup. Not that the creator Solowalk is aware of the COI issue, perhaps he can list any sources he's aware of here on this talk page so that they can be evaluated.

FWIW, I am a bit surprised though that the article was assessed as "B" class. Even though article assessments are a bit subjective and not something applied after some official review like WP:FA and WP:GA, the last version given here on November 27, 2018 when that assessment was made still seems to be a "C" class at best. I thought of downgrading the assessment myself, but you got to it first.-- Marchjuly (talk) 21:32, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

{{edithelp}} Hi to all, yes I found out I have a COI, not knowing it matter at the time of publication. thanks Marchjuly for the info. I am his daughter, Carla not son. I am fumbling my way through this and appreciate all the help.

I have a 1977 newspaper article that reports exactly what I wrote under his ddt aerial Spraying portion..and his lawsuit etc. “Ferguson still battling bureaucracy but tired of waiting” by David Hulen IDS staff writer.. (Indiana Daily Student Bloomington, IN) . It talks about his faulty diagnosis, his medicine and hospitalization with drs names. I have emailed IDS to see if they can point me to it online but if it’s not how does it get referred to?. I have it in my hand. It states exactly what I wrote in the ddt section. It looks like someone else has shorten my ddt aerial portion again. I had used published articles and not just his US Civil Service Personnel File but failed to do proper citations, I had included these in my reference section. The other complete publication is a 2009 “Administrative Profile: Claude Ferguson Rosemary O'Leary Syracuse University...her book :: “The Ethics of Dissent” includes an entire chapter “ When a career public servant sues the agency he loves: Claude Ferguson, and off-road vehicles in the Hoosier National Forest”. Please bear with me and I do appreciate any help. I will leave the article in an editors hands! Thank you!Solowalk (talk) 22:48, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

@David notMD:Hi, Thnaks for helping.I found out that I cannot publish or edit this article because I have a COI. I would appreciate someone to write this article. I have newspaper articles and as listed above a book that has a chapter about Claude Ferguson in it. 2009 “Administrative Profile: Claude Ferguson Rosemary O'Leary Syracuse University...her book :: “The Ethics of Dissent” includes an entire chapter “ When a career public servant sues the agency he loves: Claude Ferguson, and off-road vehicles in the Hoosier National Forest”. and the aerial spraying is in the newspaper listed above, “Ferguson still battling bureaucracy but tired of waiting” by David Hulen IDS staff writer.. (Indiana Daily Student Bloomington, IN) . I also have newspaper articles listed on the page itself under references. I appreciate all the help! and I am his daughter, Carla not son...sorry for that, I haven't even gone back to see where I made that mistake. Claude's other daughter, nowaytorunarailroad and Claude's nephew, robertbruceferguson also have COI. So I leave it in your hands (I hope) and others to complete.I am available to answer questions and provide info when asked. Thanks again!Solowalk (talk) 23:21, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Typing in “Claude Ferguson forest service” on yahoo or google search..should list independent published articles. Solowalk (talk) 23:58, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

I did a bit more editing, but all of this is completely outside my area of expertise, and right now I am in the middle of a Good Article nomination. I wish you well. David notMD (talk) 01:52, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello, I have a COI with regards to this article. I have had a few good talks with some here that are helpful and some that are downright rude. I will admit my failures in this field and appreciate any help. Mistakes were made plenty on my end. If someone would take the time to go to http://academic.udayton.edu/RichardGhere/POL%20318/O%27Leary_Rosemary.pdf you will find the published documentation that pertains to the lawsuit, firing, etc. Thank you, CarlaSolowalk (talk) 21:43, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

http://academic.udayton.edu/RichardGhere/POL%20318/O%27Leary_Rosemary.pdf

Are you asking for an uninvolved editor to rewrite the article based on the source you provide here? As I mentioned below, that's far more work than is common for a help request, and edit requests are meant to be made in a "Change X to Y" format that's easy to check and implement - having a COI doesn't mean that you are prohibited from proposing specific changes to the article, it just means that an uninvolved editor should confirm that what you wrote indeed is well-sourced and neutral. I mentioned earlier what I'd do if I were to work on the article; if you want me to, I can give it a shot. I'll leave the "help me" template in place for now so you can get another opinion beyond mine. (I assume I'm included in the "downright rude" responses; I apologize for any rudeness.) Huon (talk) 22:57, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello, my COI does not allow me to edit. I am requesting that (citation needed) under DDT aerial spraying be replaced with this citation "Ferguson Still Battling Bureaucracy but Tired of Waiting” by David Hulen IDS staff writer.. Indiana Daily Student Bloomington, IN. archives@indiana.edu 1977 my original information for this section came from the article and confirmed in his US Civil Service Personnel File Thank you! CarlaSolowalk (talk) 23:58, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Please provide more bibliographical information. Do you have the exact publication date and the page number? If I wanted to look up that source, I'd currently have to read a year's worth of a daily newspaper, unless I'm mistaken - it would be nice to cut down on the work required by our readers to verify the content. (I myself still won't be able to easily look up the source since I don't expect my local library has the Indiana Daily Student archived, but that's just me - others will have better access.) Huon (talk) 23:08, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Hi Solowalk, firstly, I'm sorry that you've had some rude responses here. Unfortunately, it is the nature of the internet that some folks feel free to be rude without considering that there's a real human being on the other end. Thank you for declaring your COI and committing to not editing the article. We'd like to help you here, but Huon is correct that we'd need a little more bibliographical information in order to implement your edit request. If you can provide that information, I believe we can accommodate. Thanks for your time. I'm closing the help request, but will watchlist this page and attempt to fulfill the completed edit request when it comes in. Waggie (talk) 23:45, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Request for edit

Hi, Cite for lawsuit and off road vehicle articles are in publication and online at: Rosemary O’Leary Syracuse University <ref>When a Career Public Servant Sues the Agency He Loves: Claude Ferguson, the Forest Service Off-Road Vehicles in the Hoosier National Forest<ref>. and the book, <ref>The Ethics of Dissent<ref>. In addition: DDT Aerial Spraying faulty original diagnosis, cortisone use and problems arising from it, DRs and hospital names are cite. in published 1977 newspaper article...<ref>"Ferguson still battling Bureaucracy but tired of waiting" by David Hulen IDS Staff Writer<ref> Indiana Daily Student, Bloomington, IN. This exists, I have the article. I need for someone to cite these for articles since I cannot due to COI. Thanks much!Solowalk (talk) 12:29, 24 June 2019 (UTC) Solowalk (talk) 12:33, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello Carla, I put in the request template where it is appropriate. I am sorry that it divides your comments into two. Since you said you have been "fumbling" around, I also made some formatting changes that will be helpful to whoever answers your request. Hope you don't mind. If you do, please say so and I will revert this page to exactly as it was before I got here. Regards! Usedtobecool ^✉️ ✨ 13:15, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

(talkHi, I do not mind any help and thank you. I do have a COI but the original article I wrote has correct information.. Lawsuit, firing, etc in the following. The book "The Ethics of Dissent" by Rosemary O'Leary (2006 not 2009) has a chapter about Ferguson's firing and lawsuit and whistleblower case before there was protection, in fact, his case was given to Congress and was one they cited and used to enable protection for whistleblowers (beside the point right now). The chapter itself can be found on search engines by typing in Claude Ferguson Forest Service. link to one site below: http://academic.udayton.edu/RichardGhere/POL%20318/O%27Leary_Rosemary.pdf the DDt spraying and problems arising are in written about in article "Ferguson still battling Bureaucracy but tired of waiting" by David Hulen IDS Staff Writer<ref> Indiana Daily Student, Bloomington, IN. He was hospitalized with a skin problem, treated with high levels of cortisone (unknown at times to be dangerous) and a few months into treatment others presented with same condition and found out all were sprayed with DDT, (unknown at time to be dangerous). All written about in newspaper article. Thank you all for help!!Solowalk (talk) 16:57, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Those sources may be useful for rewriting the relevant sections of the article, but that goes far beyond a mere help or even edit request. I can't tell what specific statements those sources are meant to be cited for. I checked the current content of the article and its references, and to me the references don't seem to say what they're cited for. For example, this newspaper page is cited for the statement that "Despite an incomplete environmental impact statement and public hearings, Hoosier National Forest Supervisor Don Girton made the decision to proceed with a policy of allowing ORV use to take effect as early as September, 1972." The OCR is far from perfect, but firstly that looks like a "letters to the editor" page, something not under the newspaper's editorial control and not a reliable source. Secondly, it doesn't seem to mention Don Girton at all but rather seems to accuse Ferguson of wearing too many hats, ie having a conflict of interest due to his cooperation with environmental groups. Misrepresented sources are a problem.

If I were to work on this, I'd gut the entire "Off-road vehicles in the Hoosier National Forest" and "Lawsuit against US Forest Service" sections and replace them with a one-paragraph summary, maybe based on the new sources. Huon (talk) 17:48, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello, I have a COI with regards to this article and I am learning as I go. I have had a few good talks with some here that are helpful and some that are downright rude. I will admit my failures in this field and appreciate any help. So many have now made changes, I'm not sure what I had goes with what now.If you would take the time to go to http://academic.udayton.edu/RichardGhere/POL%20318/O%27Leary_Rosemary.pdf you will find the published documentation that pertains to the lawsuit, firing, Girtons comments, etc. Thank you, CarlaSolowalk (talk) 21:52, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello Carla, I'm sorry that I don't have the courage to get directly involved. I am halfway around the world, don't know much about the subject, and very inexperienced as an editor. I thought this might help. This is how one professional (someone who runs a business, editing wikipedia for rich subjects) COI editor made his edit requests. So, I think it's the best example of how to suggest your edits, so anyone can immediately answer your request. See Talk:Axios (website)#Request Edit. Make your request as similar as possible and if it's close enough that it's clear enough, you can mention me in the request, and I'll be happy to improve the formatting for you.

I believe this is the best way to proceed for you. Because if someone responds to requests like you have made above, which would mean first, that they would have to have a lot of time to devote to it, but if they did, their best course of action would be to look through the sources and write/rewrite a large portion of the article themselves. This will include but will not be limited to completely erasing everything written about the subject's early life, for example. That's what Huon, I think it was, was saying. If they did decide to work on it, they'd start by deleting a lot of the article first. If you think you can live with that, you can ask someone to copy this version to your sandbox (not that that's necessary) and have a go at this article any way they see fit. Also note that, editors who come here are likely to mostly only leave a "citation needed" notice and move on but someone might come along who will delete all the content that is not properly sourced. And if that happens, the deleted content can't be brought back without proper sourcing for every claim. Hope this helps! Usedtobecool ^✉️ ✨ 07:21, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, I will take a look at this. But for the moment, I have to step away. Thank Again!! CarlaSolowalk (talk) 12:15, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

O'Leary article in PAR

I've added the Public Administration Review article about Ferguson written by Rosemary O'Leary to the article as part of a Claude Ferguson#Further reading just to get it formatted and into the article. The piece is a bit long and might actually be more useful as one of more inline citations instead; so, feel free to wade through it and convert citations as needed. I tried to format it as best as I could, but feel free to tweak as necessary. There are a couple of ways to format this source for multiple citations (e.g. use WP:REFNAME and {{rp}}, or convert to a shortend footnote style), but that's something which can be left to consensus to determine. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:33, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank you...Marchjuly..I had this under references but the entire reference section was taken out..so I lost citations to this publication were I had place them. The DDT section was originally written with correct facts and also has a 1977 newspaper article for citation....”Ferguson Still Battling Bureaucracy but waiting” By David Hulen staff writer IDS...I believe he is currently Anchorage, Alaska paper Editor and I am trying to yfind exact date...paper archives are only on microfilm for 1977 . I have article but no date. Solowalk (talk) 11:50, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

talkMarchjuly Thank you! I am unable to edit due to my COI. Please see my talk section above this one! Thank you, again for adding the article back to the page. I had it listed under an external links section, which

I must have placed it incorrectly because on 16:27,23 June 2019 the entire section was removed. If you can take a look at the deletion and maybe restore it to references, further reading? whatever is appropriate, I would appreciate it , so maybe an editor can use the info for citations. Also, can this be added " Cresse Lecture on Ethics in Government, Rosemary O'Leary Oct.30, 2015 Florida State University Ferguson Discussion at 26:09 minute in Lecture https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTuIiQiO01U.

Thank you for not judging my less then beginner ability and instead helping me restore article correctly. CarlaSolowalk (talk) 14:04, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure why that content was removed, but perhaps someone else can clarify this. A lot of the content you added was most certainly true, but being true is not always enough per WP:NOTEVERYTHING and WP:VNT (those short-cut links might seem to be gibberish, but you should get my point if you click on them). I formatted the O'Learly source, but it's a pretty dense source that covers lots of things (some of which might not be worth including in the article); so, bascially adding a long paragraph about it and then simply adding a citation to it at the end might not be the best way to approach this. Moreover, while the piece would likely be considered to be a reliable source, it was obviously written for a specific reason which O'Leary wanted those reading it to understand. That's fine for an academic journal per se, but maybe not so fine for an Wikipedia article where the goal might be slight different. So, not only would the content from O'Leary's piece need to be added in an encyclopedic manner suited for Wikipedia, but it would also need to be done in a way which doesn't skew the balance of the article in one particular way or place too much focus on one particular thing to the detriment of the rest of the article per WP:UNDUE. This type thing can take time and often requires input from various editors since it can involve establishing a consensus on how best to do it.

As for the YouTube video, it's probably OK to use from a copyright standpoint per WP:YOUTUBE, WP:COPYLINK and WP:ELNEVER since it comes from an official YouTube channel, but whether it has any value contextually per WP:RSCONTEXT is a different matter. It's a 50+ minute video in which she might touch on lots of things (I haven't watched the video yet so I'm just making a general observation) and whatever she does say about your dad might be based more on her personal opinion than actual stuff vetted by an editorial review board; in other words, she could've just been speaking to her audience for that specific presentation and some of what she said might be more speculative opinion than verifiable fact. Anyway, if there are specific things about your dad that she talk about, then you can help everyone out by actually writing out what content from the video you want added to the article. This will make it easier for others to assess the video and figure out how reliable and relevant it is for Wikipedia's purposes. Once you've narrowed things down a bit, you can make an edit request that it be added to article either as an inline citation or as an external link. Your request should be as simple and specific as possible; if you just request "add content from this video to the article and then add the video as a citation", your request will most likely be declined as too general. It would also be helpful if you want this added as a citation, to format the citation yourself. You should be able to use Template:Cite AV media to do this, but you can do it another way if you want. You can work on the wording of your request and the formatting of the citation in your user sandbox and then simply move it to this page when you think it's good to go. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:47, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the information Solowalk (talk) 23:45, 28 June 2019 (UTC)