Talk:Classification of ethnicity in the United Kingdom

	United Kingdom portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject United KingdomUnited Kingdom articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Ethnic groups Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups articles

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks:

Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks:

Meta-tasks:
- Place the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the talk page of articles within the scope of this project.
- Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups
Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution:
Start an article:
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests

Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks.

Archives

Archive 1

This page has archives. Sections older than 28 days may be automatically archived by when more than 4 sections are present.

Merger proposal #2

This article is very similar to Ethnic_groups_in_the_United_Kingdom. I am proposing that the two articles be merged. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.32.90.186 (talk) 10:23, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd oppose that. Ethnic groups in the United Kingdom is about the groups themselves, whereas this article is about their classification. The only overlap is with the section Ethnic groups in the United Kingdom#Official classification of ethnicity, but that is an appropriate summary of this article's more detailed content, in my view. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:36, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

BAME redirects here but is not mentioned in the text

No, the long-form isn't mentioned either. And then everyone's amazed how bad WP's rep is… --jae (talk) 09:19, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that this redirect is the gravest problem Wikipedia faces when it comes to its reputation, but we could perhaps do better. Do you have an alternative target in mind? Cordless Larry (talk) 10:24, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, give me some time and I will create a section of this article that covers the term. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:42, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Done. There's obviously lots of scope for expansion of this new section. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:33, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism of BME/BAME term

I don't really understand the 'These terms have been criticised on a number of grounds, including for excluding national minorities such as the Cornish, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish from the definition of ethnic minorities, for suggesting that black people (and Asian people, with BAME) are racially separate from the ethnic minority population', and it feels like it could have at least a couple of citations from knowledgeable sources penned by at least one 'BME' person/group and a member/group of the latter white national minorities, or even better, people who belong to both groups. As it stands, I've literally never heard of this criticism before, and it seems like a probably perfectly well-meaning attempt to anticipate the kinds of criticisms people might have about the term, but aren't actually very prevalent criticisms.

In addition to that, it seems quite unwieldy because just that sentence of the section crams a couple of rather different assumptions in there, such as:

that all four of the latter groups mentioned have (or at least have had to a large extent until very recently) similar experiences of being national minorities but not facing actual ethnic discrimination and systemic racism (the Irish in Britain in particular would seem to disprove that assumption)
linked to the above, but more broad, the idea that those groups (once again, especially Irish people) are just considered national minorities with no ethnic component to discrimination faced (and please don't misunderstand me, I am not trying to play 'Oppression Olympics' here)
the lack of mention of the very sad fact that plenty of other ethnicities and nationalities, generally considered white (many immigrants from Eastern and Southern Europe, for example, or members of all sections of British Jewry regardless of whether their families are dyed-in-the-wool, 'Time Immemorial' Brits or recent immigrants), also face discrimination and racism which can have elements of either - or frequently both - of the two forms of of discrimination noted here. If someone with a clearer idea of what the author of this part was trying to get across could add some solid sources, it could not only clarify the meaning and the reason for including these assumptions in the argument unexamined, but also give some indication of whether these are fringe views or widely held in the UK. 'These terms have been criticised' is a bit of a weasel-words kind of phrase, after all. Thanks! Devgirl (talk) 21:35, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think I wrote that. No doubt it could be improved, but have you read the sources? The criticisms are articulated there, including by BME people. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:00, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of Actual Data

What this article omits is any indication of the relative size of different ethnic groups which gives a lack of context particularly to the discussion of BAME.

For example, in November 2022, the Guardian newspaper^[1] reported results from the 2021 census. It reported that 9.3% of the population of the UK classified themselves as Asian British and 2.5% as Black, Black British, Black Welsh, Caribbean or African. Despite the more than three-fold predominance of Asian people, the article included four references to ‘Black and minority ethnic people’. In this context it is unclear why one would refer to ‘Black and minority ethnic people’ in preference to 'Asian and minority ethnic people'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EcclesMan (talk • contribs) 18:43, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Booth, Robert; Duncan, Pamela; García, Carmen Aguilar (29 November 2022). "England and Wales now minority Christian countries, census reveals". The Guardian.

We have other articles, such as Demographics of the United Kingdom, where you can find these data. This article is concerned more with the methodology. I do believe this article adequately describes the status of 'Black and minority ethnic people' as a term. We discuss it, along with other terms, because it has been a classification thing, even though it's mostly informal. Thankfully it's not really a preferred term any more. You're welcome to suggest any specific improvements to improve the article in this or any other respect. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 09:56, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps a disambiguation kind of clarification at the top could be placed to direct people to said data. Tweedle (talk) 17:07, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Booth, Robert; Duncan, Pamela; García, Carmen Aguilar (29 November 2022). "England and Wales now minority Christian countries, census reveals". The Guardian.

[1]