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Talk:Clara Elsene Peck/GA1

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GA Review

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Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Hello. I will be reviewing this article. Viriditas (talk) 10:46, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the help, Viriditas, I'll get working on the stuff that needs working on.--Scott Free (talk) 14:44, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Note: I plan on closing this review as pass or fail by midnight, August 10 (HST). I'll probably close this out at least a few hours after that due to offwiki tasks I need to complete.

  • Not going to happen. I'll try again tomorrow morning. Viriditas (talk) 11:48, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Passed: The extensive use of primary sources concerns me, but it is not against the rules. I've placed a noticeboard report for anyone who wants to look at it in any detail. For the most part, many of the primary sources are supported by secondary, but this isn't made entirely clear in the current references and I had to do some research to track them down; Please make it more explicit. I've added more secondary sources to this review page for future use. Please use them and expand the current set of secondary sources to explicitly cover the entire article. A lot of material that was not directly about Peck was moved into footnotes. One particular note about the Minneapolis School of Fine Arts was deleted entirely as it did not help the reader understand Peck. Please remember to focus on the subject of the article. I had some concerns about the FUR used for the collaborative illustration with her husband and the watercolor painting; I added a noticeboard report about that as well if anyone wants to take a look at it in any detail. Good job. Viriditas (talk) 13:46, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Layout

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Images

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Fair use rationales

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  • File:Peckpainting1.jpg, File:Peck-Williams.jpg - Why don't we have the name of the works listed here, and the dates? "Purpose of use" in FUR says, "To illustrate point in Painting section", but that isn't very specific. How does it illustrate the point? Please explain this in the FUR and attempt to find the name and date of the painting. Viriditas (talk) 12:28, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Unfortunately, I have no further info on these pics - The painting was the only sample of her work in the watercolor medium that I have come across. But I think I can find a referenced oil painting. The Peck/Williams piece is ca. 1907-1928 - I have another Peck/Williams sample, referenced, in b&w.--Scott Free (talk) 14:18, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would like to move all the images to a Commons gallery, but I need to have publication dates confirmed to all the ones in the public domain. That way we can limit the article to only her most notable work. Viriditas (talk) 23:36, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • What kind of info would you need to confirm them?--Scott Free (talk) 00:43, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well, some (if not all) of the images say that you are the source. Does that mean you own copies of the originals? Or did you upload them from a website that provided the images? Viriditas (talk) 10:45, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yeah, they're from actual copies in my collection.--Scott Free (talk) 12:51, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • Ok, let me start with the Treasure Chest images: In the permission section, you write, "Per the American Catholic History Research Center and University Archives of The Catholic University of America, "The following years are public domain: 1946-1963, inclusive, and 1972." Link: http://libraries.cua.edu/achrcua/TreasureChest.html". However, I cannot confirm that in the link. Is there another link where I can find the statement about the public domain? Viriditas (talk) 10:21, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • Found this on another site: "The digital collection contains the first eighteen volumes running from 1946 to 1963, which are in public domain. There are some issues missing from Volume 4 (1948-1949). The issues published from 1964 through 1971 are still under copyright protection, which cannot be included in the digital collection at this time. Issues published in 1972 were not copyrighted and will be added to the collection soon." I'll go ahead and update the page with this link unless you have a better link. Viriditas (talk) 10:27, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good catch.--Scott Free (talk) 23:39, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's from a photocopy, so the repro isn't all that great. No date given, taken from the undated original art and not the original publication.--Scott Free (talk) 23:39, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

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  • Please expand the lead section (see WP:LEAD) to summarize the most important points in the article. Inversely, please expand the body if you highlight something important in the lead section. For example, in the current lead, you write that Peck "was active in the comic book field, for specialized Catholic publishers" but the article says nothing about this. The prose has some problems, so please copy edit closely. Viriditas (talk) 11:54, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done.--Scott Free (talk) 03:22, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done. --Scott Free (talk) 03:22, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just some background info about the term 'Golden Age of American Illustration'. What it is, when was it, how did it come about. Reed establishes her in that period on p. 87. in the Book Illustration section.--Scott Free (talk) 02:18, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Right, that's what I was looking for, and all we need to do is cite the right sources in the correct context, and use the non-Peck references in a footnote (i.e. for further information see...) Viriditas (talk) 11:24, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ok, the lead is much more fleshed out, but the prose and order of elements is off and needs to be restructured. For example:
    • Was she noted for her work in magazines such as Cosmopolitan, Good Housekeeping and the Ladies Home Journal, and for her illustrations in juvenile literature books or was she simply noted for her illustrations which were published in those books? In other words, was she known for her illustrations or for the words they appeared in? It seems like a minor point, but from looking at this article, it's actually difficult to know which is true.
    • The part about Peck working during the "golden age of American Illustration" is still sourced to Parks. As we have already discussed, this needs to be sourced to Reed instead. As for pointing people to the Parks article, you could add a footnote or a further reading section, but it can't be solely sourced to Parks here as he doesn't talk about Peck at all.
    • We should mention the awards and distinctions in the lead and discuss what she is notable for in the first paragraph. Viriditas (talk) 23:33, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Both in 1913. - source 'who's who 2557'

Looking pretty good to me. All the info looks accurate. Good summary.--Scott Free (talk) 13:20, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

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  • Chase taught at the Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts from 1896 to 1909 and founded the New York School of Art staying on as instructor until 1907. His students included East Coast artists like Charles Demuth, Marsden Hartley, M. Jean McLane, Georgia O'Keeffe, and Edward Charles Volkert.[3]

I admit, it's digressive - but still relevant - even though the scholarship providing direct accounts of her relationships and activities is very scanty - I find this kind of general background info adds useful contextual circumstancial information.--Scott Free (talk) 01:40, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Some of it, taken in isolation, could probably be worked in as supporting primary source material. However, if we look at the entire article, and take the big picture view, we have a slight problem with OR. This is because we are either lacking necessary sources or I need to see further verification of particular sources. A lot of of the references you are using are not about Peck. This is a problem. We need to start with using references only about Peck, and then deal with the supporting material after we have confirmed that the base material is sourced to references that mention Peck. Right now, I cannot confirm this is true; So, let us start with verification of sources. Viriditas (talk) 12:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

35 of the 42 footnotes specifically deal with Peck - the other 7 are used to add background info on places, people, or periods referenced from the first 35.--Scott Free (talk) 14:53, 7 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here are the refs that don't cite Peck -

  • ^ a b Parks, John A. (June 2006). "The Golden Age of American Illustration". American Artist. *http://www.allbusiness.com/services/museums-art-galleries-botanical-zoological/4360136-1.html. Retrieved on 2009-08-02.
  • ^ The Minneapolis School of Fine Arts was founded in 1886, and by 1889 it occupied the top floor of the Minneapolis Public Library. [1]
  • ^ The Pennsylvania Academy and its women, 1850-1920 / [catalogue of an exhibition held] May 3-June 16, 1974 [at the] Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Philadelphia, PA: Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts, 1974, pg. 19
  • ^ Goodyear, Jr., Frank H., et al., Cecilia Beaux: Portrait of an Artist. Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts, 1974. Library of Congress Catalog No. 74-84248, p. 12
  • ^ Chase taught at the Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts from 1896 to 1909 and founded the New York School of Art staying on as instructor until 1907. His students included East Coast artists like Charles Demuth, Marsden Hartley, M. Jean McLane, Georgia O'Keeffe, and Edward Charles Volkert.[2]
  • ^ Hawkes, Elizabeth H. (1985). America's Great Women Illustrators 1850-1950. New York: Society of Illustrators. p. 12.
  • ^ Reed, Illustrator in America, 163
  • ^ Carlson, Mark (2006). ""Hey! That Ain't Funny!' (Part 2)". Religious Comic Books in the Forties. Volume 2, Issue 2 (NostalgiaZone.com). http://www.nostalgiazone.com/doc/zine/06_V2N2/thataintfunny.htm. Retrieved on 2009-08-04.

--Scott Free (talk) 03:34, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, you read my mind. I was going to ask you to list the refs here, but you anticipated my request. More later... Viriditas (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think I asked you this already, but did you find anything else to add about her study with William Merritt Chase? And why isn't one of Chase's schools (see his biography article for details) listed? Did Peck take private lessons or attend one of his schools? Viriditas (talk) 13:22, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Pennsylvania one? No. She did exhibit there at one point, though.--Scott Free (talk) 23:39, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, just background info on the teaching faculty where she studied during the general period where she studied. I actually found a more precise reference, which I added.--Scott Free (talk) 22:11, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Peck spent her youth in St. Paul, Minnesota
    • The article currently sources this to Ortakales.com, but it seems to be 404 on my end. Can you access the site? Archive.org's copy says that the material comes from the sources currently in the article, so I'm going to remove it as we have no need for it, per the peer review. Viriditas (talk) 10:07, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid I tend to support the ortakales site as a valid - currently, it's the only source being used that supports that she took night classes in Pennsylvania and that her studies with Chase were in New York.--Scott Free (talk) 16:32, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

When was the last time anyone was able to access the website? It's not active as far as I can tell. Internet Archive hosts a copy, and all the sources used appear in this article. Is the author/webmaster notable in some way? And, are we sure the night school material doesn't appear anywhere else? I suppose we could link to the archived version, but the peer reviewer recommended deleting it altogether. I can add it back in, but I'm not sure if it's considered reliable. Do you know if the author is an expert on the subject? In any case, the references in the early life section need to directly support the material, not simply act as footnotes. The Catalogue of the Collection, 1969-1989 source from the Brandywine River Museum (1991) says that Peck studied with William Merritt Chase at the Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Arts, not in New York. Since Ortakales cites Larson (1984), Mahoney (1930), Pitz (1977), and Reed (1966), we should be able to verify if the night classes (and the part about New York) are supported. Viriditas (talk) 07:11, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, it looks like Ortakales got the New York bit from Larson (1984). However, looking at the snippet view on Google, Larson's account seems to make an error, and refers to the Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts as the "Philadelphia Academy of the Fine Arts". While not conclusive, this perhaps cast doubt on the New York claim. Viriditas (talk) 08:22, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's good sleuthing. I don't have the Larson ref on hand. I assumed it was from Mahoney, which I haven't seen in its entirety. It makes sense that she studied with Chase in Pennsylvania. Do you have a link for the Brandywine ref?--Scott Free (talk) 23:39, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ortakales. --Scott Free (talk) 23:39, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Book illustrations

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No, but it's an overview of the period to which she is included, and therefore applies to her explicitly.--Scott Free (talk) 23:39, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • By 1908, she had contributed a cover for Collier's.
    • This is primary research. Generally, we want the entire article to be based on secondary sources. This type of edit might be appropriate as merely an observation, and I don't plan on removing it, but we have to be careful to avoid OR. In any case, why is it in the "Book illustration" section? Viriditas (talk) 11:08, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Book illustration was used as a title referring to her early book work in Philly.--Scott Free (talk) 23:39, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Magazine illustration

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  • Three of her female contemporaries, Jessie Willcox Smith, Elizabeth Shippen Green and Violet Oakley, were students of Pyle, as well as graduates of the Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Arts.

Paintings

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  • Aside from an embedded list, there isn't much here. Surely, if these museums have her work as part of their permanent collection, it's a safe bet that we can find more information about it. Please help expand this section, if at all possible. Viriditas (talk) 04:58, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Couldn't find much. Added a small bit. --Scott Free (talk) 03:03, 7 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Found some more: She apparently lost some photographs and murals when the American Fine Arts Society building caught on fire in 1920 during the thirty-fifth annual exhibition of the Architectural League.[4] Viriditas (talk) 05:16, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's great.--Scott Free (talk) 23:39, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Some of her "pictures" (don't know if that is an illustration or not) appeared in a 1916 New Year calendar called "Witty and Wise Calendar", with words by Minna Thomas Antrim and pictures by Clara Elsene Peck and Blanche Greer.[6] This is the same "team" that worked on Knocks, Witty Wise and ____ (1905).[7] Viriditas (talk) 05:33, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's amazing - a lot of illustrators ended doing that, but more in the 30s. --Scott Free (talk) 23:39, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Awards and distinctions

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  • National Association Women Artists and the New York Women's Painters & Sculptors Society

Great job is sorting out all those association names. My sources are rather cryptic. Great finds. You really shed new light on her 1910-1920 period.--Scott Free (talk) 23:39, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Personal life

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Yes, it's viewable on Amazon.com.--Scott Free (talk) 14:50, 7 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I'll take a look. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 22:51, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed.--Scott Free (talk) 23:39, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Selected illustrated books

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  • The Diary of an expectant mother. By Anonymous. Chicago: A.C. McClurg, 1917.
    • Added "Charlotte Hirsch" in place of anonymous.[14]

References

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So I think that about does it - I've responded to most of your points as best I could - I must say, the article has improved considerably.--Scott Free (talk) 03:37, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It certainly has improved, and I plan on closing this GAN out by this time on August 10 (HST) with a pass or fail after I go through it and fix the prose and formatting. Nice job. Viriditas (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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