Talk:Clann Somhairle

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Pronounciation

"[klan sorli]" is wrong - it would be something more like "clown soa-ihr-luh".--MacRusgail (talk) 15:55, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's correct, but it reduces to [klan sorli] in English. I'll try to work out the IPA for the Gaelic pronunciation and put that first, and then give the current one after it as the English. DinDraithou (talk) 19:13, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the first bit should be pronounced more like "clown" (as in the circus) rather than "clan". I was guessing that the programme presenters mispronounced it. I also suspect that it should be "Clann Shomhairle" rather than "Clann Somhairle", in which case, the "sh" would be pronounced like an "h".--MacRusgail (talk) 19:28, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Scottish"

At least we have one great branch saved among the Irish, MacDonnell of the Glens (Antrim), whom if you aren't aware, readers, enjoy recognition among Irish princes, where they belong. The seed of Sorley Boy still live well enough, in an Ireland only ruined temporarily. Scotland has been finished since the late 13th century, Alexander III of Scotland being its last genuine king. No Gaelic king would ever have stolen the royal style of another living dynasty like the pretentious and worthless Stuarts later did. It has been illegitimate ever since. DinDraithou (talk) 02:26, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Problematic edits

OK, there are numerous problems with this edit

1 "Clann Somhairle (English: /klæn sɔrli/) refers to those Hebridean and Irish dynasties, some now popularly considered "Scottish""

This implies that they are actually Hebridean and Irish, but incorrectly called "Scottish". Ignoring that Hebrideans are actually Scottish, why would they be Irish but not Scottish? Somerled himself actually comes from Scotland and has nothing to do with Ireland. Are you saying they are partly Irish because some settled there later? Or is it because of the faked genealogies? At any rate, even if we were to say that that 12th century Hebrideans aren't Scottish, the ones after that certainly were, as were all the MacDougals, MacRuairidhs and MacDonalds of the mainland.

2|nationality =Norwegian, Gaelic (from Gaelic (Scottish), Scandinavian)

Somerled's Scandinavian origin, even if likely, is unproven ... and there is certainly no reason to think of him as "Norwegian". The family at any rate isn't in the slightest bit Norwegian (Norse sources call even the early ones "Scots" because that's what they were).

3 According to the Clan Donald DNA Project, Somerled was almost certainly of paternal Norwegian ancestry ... It is possible that Somerled was a male line descendant of Echmarcach mac Ragnaill and Ivar of Waterford.

This is fringe stuff. "dna-project.clan-donald-usa.org" is not a reliable source. Unless you can find historians using this kind of evidence, it should get nowhere beyond a note. As far as I can tell, this is some genealogy enthusiasts using data from guys with "Clann Somhairle names" ... whereas there's no necessity that anyone using these names is related in that way to Somerled. The perceived relation is based on two misconceptions 1) that people with the same name are related to each other, whereas usually these are names adopted in the early modern period by peasants for other reasons; and 2) that pseudo-historical genealogies are accurate. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:38, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can tell you aren't familiar with their "faked" pedigree. They very much wanted an Irish lineage, and most likely actually have one, although through the female. Furthermore what you claim to be a fringe source has access to the genetics of the chiefs themselves. If you look through their site you'll see they cite academics and other top authorities. It's all really quite excellent. Finally the genealogy or pedigree you are trying to remove can be found various places online, and is probably the one done by Sir Ian Moncrieffe for them decades ago, which the site mentions.[1] Will check but I'm fairly confident. Anyway, keep saying what you want. DinDraithou (talk) 20:33, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What matters is not your own opinion about its reliability, but the opinion of experts ... namely specialist historians. Find a relevant historian using this, and it's fine (cite the historian). Otherwise it's not. I've explained to you some of the problems, and if you consider this you'll realise it is quite unlikely to be taken seriously. Cheers, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:44, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I took the liberty of numbering the points raised by Deacon above, for easier reference, and have tried to look at these points with fresh eyes.

1. The first sentence in the lead clearly referrs to dynasties descending from Somerled - thus the question of Somerleds "nationality" isn't relevant here. These dynasties descending from Somerled are Scottish (also mainland as D of P points out) and Irish. Thus I suggest rewrite to "...refers to those Scottish and Irish dynasties descending from the famous..." - omitting the "popularly considered" part.

2. "Ethnicity"... I hate infoboxes Now, whos ethnicity are we talking about - Somerleds or those clans claiming descent from him? If it is Somerled, Norse-Gael probably sums it up. If it's the current clans they probably have closer anglo-norman ancestors than Norwegian - and they certainly are not Norwegian today - it's been a while since we gave up the Isles... I suggest removing this entry from the infobox, as it really doesn't provide any relevant information.

3. DNA-projects. Don't know much about this, and that is why I would really like to see some secondary source asserting their reliability. Apart from that, I haven't got much to add besides that there should be no external links in the middle of the text, please format this as a reference.

Best regards to both of you, Finn Rindahl (talk) 14:52, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's good that much of this has been sorted. The 2nd paragraph though is still poorly sourced and in violation of both WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:54, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And so on. The website of the High Council of Clan Donald recommends the Clan Donald USA site,[2][3] which in turn links to the DNA Project, which is associated with the reputable Family Tree DNA.[4] DinDraithou (talk) 19:30, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely not reliable sources though. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:52, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say it is a reliable source for that "According to the Clan Donald DNA Project, Somerled was almost certainly of paternal Norwegian ancestry" but would not be a good enough source to state that "Somerled was almost certainly of paternal Norwegian ancestry". There's a rather big difference there IMO.

As for undue weight, I tend to agree with that, basically because this article doesn't offer very much other information. I think that would be best solved by adding more info about the tradition of claiming Irish descent. I'd like to see the second paragraph starting with "Somerleds dynasty claimed Gaelic ancestry and a descent from the legendary Colla Uais and Conn of the Hundred Battles. [followed by more info which I haven't got - how was this (presumably fake) pedigrees constructed&where are the critical missing links?, when (by Somerled, by John&co, by later McDonalds)?, and why - an attempt link to Dál Riata?] Then I think recent attempts to show Norse origins - Woolf followed by the McDonald DNA-project. I know I should be digging up sources and adding this info myself, and I might do that some day. For now I'm only adding questions&comments here on the talk page, hoping someone else will do the work. Best regards, Finn Rindahl (talk) 20:51, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, even if this were a 20,000 word FA, I don't think it'd merit anything beyond a note. Clan family enthusiasm is great, but as far as medieval Scottish topics are concerned has never produced anything but nonsense, of which this is but one very common instance. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]