Talk:Clan Livingstone

The surname Livingstone is misattributed

The article claims that Livingstone/Livingstone is derived from the placename. This is a rudimentary and lazy error. Livingston didn't exist until 1960-something, which is at least several centuries too late to account for the surname. It's also located no-where near the original clan holdings of the MacLeas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:A005:CA01:DD63:5C3:93C6:E57D (talk) 16:59, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

The placename and derived lowland surname existed for centuries before 1960. It was also the basis of an important title in the lowland Scottish nobility. The mystery is how it came to be attached to a highland clan. It may have been relatively recent, probably in the 18th century. But it is not so surprising given the way lowland surnames were enforced in the 18th century highlands.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 18:34, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Battle of Pinkie Cleugh

I noticed this added to the page today. If anyone has added information on the role of the Clan MacLea in that battle, it would be appreciated! Isoxyl 13:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Footnotes and DNA project

Added some footnotes and the DNA project. Should probably look at a way to link from lowland Livingston/e page if there is one... Also, is there a page for Scottish Clans to link from as well? Probably should try to flesh things out a bit more with the text and make it more conversational than like it is now, more like a list... Isoxyl 13:14, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Also, we should probably put some redirects in from McLea and McOnLea, Clan McLea and Clan McOnLea, perhaps? Isoxyl 13:15, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Added redirects from McLea, MacLea, Clan McLea, Highland Clan McLea, Highland Clan MacLea, McOnLea, and Clan McOnLea. Isoxyl 19:40, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Corrected clan reference

I have edited the former text

Also known as the clan MacOnlea, or the "highland Livingstone" clan.[1] This is a Scottish clan, with a Gaelic "highland" heritage. The clan is still lead by the "Baron of the Bachuil", which is an officially recognized title of Lord Lyon King of Arms.

because reference to the Baron of the Bachuil's matriculation of arms [1] shows the arms are granted to the

Baron of the Bachuil as Head of the Highland Clan MacLea

, in other words as Head of a family, not Chief or Chieftain of a Scottish Clan, in the narrow (but usual) sense of the term as a group regognised by the Lord Lyon as having (or having had) a Chief.

At the same time, Lord Lyon does indeed refer to the "Highland Clan MacLea". So I've reworded to point out that:

• This is the Highland Clan MacLea, not Clan MacLea
• This is not a Scottish clan in the narrow sense of the word - but nonetheless this family group can referred to as a clan.
• Clarified Bachuil's position as Head, not Chief.

Bookbean 14:10, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Just a note that the Lord Lyon apparently added the word "Highland" to the "Clan MacLea" because there were some MacLeas that had not yet been proven to be relatives, if I understand it correctly. It sounded like it was possible that in the future, this might change. I'm still not really clear on the difference between Head of a Clan and Chief of a Clan, but I'm sure someone will make this clear at some point. Isoxyl 19:27, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd suggest that if no reference can be given to a strong distinction between chief and head then the article should probably not focus too much on it? Andrew Lancaster 08:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

The distinction between Chief of clan and Head of family is widely known in Scottish heraldry; it is spelt out well by Lyon Court webpage [2], especially the last paragraph. Admittedly my text is a little didactic, because it was correcting a previous text which laid emphasis on the status of this particular family as a recognised clan (which it isn't). I'll have another look at the text and see if we can find a wording that lies between. Bookbean 10:34, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Have removed any reference to the official Scottish clan system from the article. There is clearly some confusion on external MacLea pages (and originally on this page) about clan vs family, but it is better spelt out on this talk page than the main text. Bookbean 10:44, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I guess we're all really looking at the same information then. For instance, a quote attributed to the previous Lord Lyon would seem to indicate that a Chief of Clan and Head of Family are in some sense one in the same. [3]. Furthermore, it appears in reference to Scottish heraldry, that the Baron McLea has been granted the full 'additaments' granted unto Clan Chiefs, if I understand correctly. [4]. Anyway, changes of Bookbean to remove references to the clan system are okay with me. Isoxyl 12:44, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the question is whether the additiments are there because Bachuil is a Baron with a following, or a Chief. If the latter, then he leads a clan. The supporters and compartment would be Bachuil's by right because he holds a pre-1587 barony. The standard and pinsel are more indicative of chiefship, BUT appear to be sometimes awarded to barons, see e.g. [5], and the wording "This flag [pinsel] is allotted only to Chiefs or very special Chieftain-Barons for practical use" at the Lyon Court website [6]. Is Bachuil therefore a "very special Chieftain-Baron rather than a chief"? The only unambiguous evidence I can see is the use of the term Head in the matriculation, rather than Chief, although the term Chief of the Name and Arms is always used in matriculations of clan chiefs, even those of lowland families. I have an open mind on this, but would like to see unambiguous evidence that we are dealing with a chief and clan rather than head and family.

I note that the official publication in the Edinburgh Gazette is of the "Roll of the Chiefs, and Heads of Territorial Houses" [7]. I think this makes it clear that a matriculation to a Head is to the head of a Territorial House (albeit a somewhat expanded one in this case), while that to a Chief is distinct. Note the comma between Chiefs and "Heads of Territorial Houses": the two are distinct. I note the discussion on the Clan MacLea pages and hope it produces unambiguous evidence either way. Bookbean 14:12, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Good points, Bookbean. I'm hoping to get some clarification of his understanding from the Young Bachuil. More if I have it. Isoxyl 14:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I have updated the first paragraph in the light of Young Bachuill's useful statement [8], which means we can cite a reference for this "new" clan. It would be good to have a bit more detail in the article on the MacLea/Livingstone connection and its special regional context - these are apparently the factors that led Lyon to employ particular terminology in the grant - and on the very interesting history of the Bachuil Barony, but I'll leave that to others. Bookbean 21:14, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you, Bookbean. More detail would indeed be a good thing, to help explain it. The article also needs to be broken into sections to make it all flow a little better, I think. Thanks for contributing! For awhile, the original author, who I think is Andrew Lancaster, had pretty much done all the revisions. More heads looking at, and critiquing the material will only make the results better! Yours aye, Isoxyl 21:26, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite

I have taken the liberty of completely rewriting this article.

I hope I have addressed issues raised in a constructive fashion.

I have added a great deal of content, a structure and where possible provided references.

A little has been removed where I believed that it did not add value.

For instance I have removed various interpretaions of the derivation of the name that are now considered untenable.

I am sure that a great deal can be added and I don't see this as cast in stone. However, I have had to do a great deal of research to prsent our recent case at Lyon Court and am fairly comfortable with my facts. If I have made any errors please email me. In my records I may well have chapter and verse.

As this is an article not a book it is never going to be practical to dot very i and cross every T.

Regards

Young Bachuil 15 June 2006

Son of the Physician

I have had private correspondence with W. David H. Sellar Bute Pursuivant of Arms over the theory that MacLea comes from Son of the Physician and he agrees that this is unlikely.Young Bachuil 07:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

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