Talk:Clan Chattan

	This article is supported by the Clans of Scotland WikiProject, which gives a central approach to Scottish clans and related subjects on Wikipedia. Please participate by editing the article Clan Chattan, or visit the project page for more details on the projects.Clans of ScotlandWikipedia:WikiProject Clans of ScotlandTemplate:WikiProject Clans of ScotlandClans of Scotland articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Medieval Scotland Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Medieval Scotland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Medieval Scotland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Medieval ScotlandWikipedia:WikiProject Medieval ScotlandTemplate:WikiProject Medieval ScotlandMedieval Scotland articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

Scotland Low‑importance

	Scotland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Scotland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Scotland and Scotland-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ScotlandWikipedia:WikiProject ScotlandTemplate:WikiProject ScotlandScotland articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Error on motto featured on the Clan Chattan crest displayed on this page

The artwork shown here has a spelling error on the crest: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Clan_member_crest_badge_Clan_Chattan_ver_3.jpg

The Crest Badge of the Chief of Clan Chattan as a whole should have the word 'Cat' in the motto spelled with two Ts, not one, so the whole motto should read:

Touch not the catt but a glove

By comparison, the Chief of Clan Mackintosh has one T in cat and then 'bot' rather than 'but':

Touch not the cat bot a glove

Each Chief of a Clan Chattan clan whose crest features a wildcat has a different motto, sometimes with the smallest of difference from another. The position of the wildcat is also different, and the colours on the wreath underneath each chief's crest can vary too - some Or and Azure (Gold and Blue: Macpherson, MacBean), others Or and Gules (Gold and Red: Chattan, Mackintosh, MacThomas, MacGillivray).

--Chattan1 (talk) 12:08, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Response: Disagree Rationale: 'Touch not the cat bot a glove^[1]^[2] (The archaic spelling of 'catt', and the use of either 'but' or 'bot' are present abd acceptable in different sources in various combinations).

References

^ "Our Motto and Badge". The Clan Chattan Association. Retrieved 2023-06-08.
^ Matriculation and Confirmation of Arms and Chiefship to Duncan Alexander Mackintosh of Clan Chattan as 31st Hereditary Chief of Clan Chattan, 9th April 1947, Lyon Register, xxxvi. 36. See 1950 Scots Law Times, p.5; Lyon Court Reports.

[Untitled]

Were the Catti Gauls or Germans? The Jade Knight 09:03, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you are asking a question, even though it's from 2006, I feel obliged to answer; the Catti are not Clan Chattan to begin with. There probably was a Germanic tribe named Catti, but that has nothing to do with Clan Chattan. Yes, Clan Chattan were Gauls or Picts, that we have not confirmed. It's very possible the early Gauls may have been called Picts by the Romans, we were in Scotland approximately 3000 years ago. If not Picts, they were the second earliest wave. My money is on them being the Picts. Take care and may GOD bless you all, as he blesses me every single day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.124.12 (talk) 00:20, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm removing the Chisholm link as I can't find any evidence that Chisholm is part of the Chattan Confederation. (Nfras 22:40, 23 April 2006 (UTC))[reply]

They were a Germanic tribe. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/107997/Chatti#218403.hook Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 08:41, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

They were pictish, not germanic. The latin name of the Cait was most likely Orcades, not Chatti, the Ch being pronounced /x/, otherwise the latins wouldn't have bothered adding a h. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.252.95.227 (talk) 08:07, 2 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we can't say for certain they were Picts, but they were definitely from Gaul, that much has been proven. God Bless again, I love you all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.124.12 (talk) 00:22, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

External links

Before this gets into an edit war lets just be perfectly clear: Wikipedia:External links#Important points to remember states "External links should not normally be used in the body of an article. Instead, include appropriate external links in an "External links" section at the end of the article, and in the appropriate location within an infobox, if applicable". It is obvious that if there is a Wikipedia article about a subject then that takes priority over an external link in the body of a Wikipedia article.QuintusPetillius (talk) 11:07, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My good friend Quintus disrupting yet another clan site, and that list is now quite extensive. No worries about the IP Address, I'll just change it again. I might add, Clan Chattan has no definitive "origin", they are of course an alliance, of which, I am genetically a member. I can't speak for all the Clans under Chattan, but the core appear to be Gaulish Celts and they would have spoken P-Celtic initially. They were in the British Isles well before 100 BC, with branches settling in Scotland, Ireland and the Isle of Man. They were not Germanic, again, my dna testing proves that. They were not Norman either, they were Celts but they were from the area now called Belgium. They were the Belgae. These are the facts, if you want to quote b.s. "sources" as you've done now for quite a very long time, keep doing it, you are only showing your own ignorance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.124.12 (talk) 00:04, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that you have just admited that you will change your IP address in order to get around the rules of Wikipedia does not do you any favours, and that coment is stored in the history of the discussion page and there is nothing you can do about it. Wikipedia is all about reflecting the sources. If you do not like what Wikipedia is about then I suggest you do not use Wikipedia. Otherwise you should respect the rules. Now I began this discussion above about how you were adding external links into the body of the article which, as I have demonstrated, you are not supposed to do. But now you are going on about the origins of Clan Chattan...and excuse me but where in the article has anyone said that they were of Norman origin ? Your claims about your DNA does not prove anything in regards to the origins of the Clan Chattan unless you have a published source which specifically says so and I don't mean a page from the Family Tree DNA website showing DNA results - that does not prove anything about the origins of the Clan Chattan. I will be reporting you in due course.QuintusPetillius (talk) 14:44, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What is this?

QUOTE: The clan does not follow the ordinary pattern of other Scottish clans, in that it was a community or confederation of clans whose chiefs were the descendants of the original ancestors. UNQUOTE Who else would someone be descended from? The NON-original ancestors? The non-orignal non-ancestors or the original non-ancestors? How can one be descended from "the" non-ancestors? If it's inevitable (as one would guess) that one is descended from one's ancestors, what would differentiate being descended from "original" vs. "non-original" ancestors? It shows the foolishness of an encyclopedia whose articles are written only by experts in the field or people with an interest in the topic but with no policing by a staff of people who have no interest in the article's subject, that it might be verified that the article makes some sense to people who don't already know everything in it: logicians, copy-editors, grammarians, style-sheet enforcers, and the like. Increasingly I take exception to some sentence in Wikipedia not because I know it is factually wrong (although God knows there is that) but, rather, because it is not possible to discern that it makes an assertion of fact at all, or what that fact might be. Nonsense is neither true nor false but, rather, just meaningless. For example being "descended from the original ancestors". And if we could figure out what that description is, we can't figure out what it describes. Is it the clans that each have had such chiefs? Or is it the confederation that has had such chiefs?2604:2000:C6AA:B400:3C34:8CD1:5626:33DD (talk) 23:19, 7 July 2015 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson[reply]

I have made some changes to the opening lines which should make it clearer as to what the article is about.QuintusPetillius (talk) 18:04, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's better, but perhaps "united" isn't the right word. They were indeed a "confederation" of clans which acknowledged Mackintosh as the chief of the confederation, but each member clan had its own land, often acted independently, and had its own chief. Additionally, member clans of the confederation sometimes took advantage of each other, fought over land, rustled cattle from each other, etc. For example, MacThomas and Farquharson were such rivals that it rose to the level of a blood feud. Loyalty to clan came first, and loyalty to Chattan Confederation came only when it benefited the clan (or when obligation to the Mackintosh couldn't be avoided), this perhaps should be made more clear in the lede.--William Thweatt ^Talk^Contribs 19:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have made some additional changes to the opening lines, but I think the details that are mentioned by [[William Thweatt above such as the loyalties to their own clan and then the confederation can be left for the article body or even the individual articles for each of the clans that were part of the confederation.QuintusPetillius (talk) 18:03, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation

Is "Chattan" pronounced (by non-Gaelic Scots) the 'English' way, i.e. /ˈt͡ʃatən/, with the first consonant as in chocolate, or the 'Gaelic' way, i.e. /ˈxatən/, with the first consonant like the last in loch? --Droigheann (talk) 22:29, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It is generally accepted that it is pronounced with the 'ch' being said like that found in 'loch'. That is quite difficult for those not used to doing this at the beginning of a word; therefore many say the name as 'Hatton'. That may be more comfortable to say but it isn't the full monty. 'Ardchattan' is pronounced locally closest to 'Ardhatton'. Over time, 'Chattan' has also been well recognised and pronounced following the example you give above with the 'ch' being like that in 'chocolate'. The name originates from the name of the Saint called 'Cattan' (hard 'C', no 'h'). To summarise - 'Chattan' is most correctly said with the 'ch' being said with the same form as the 'ch' in 'loch' - the Gaelic - or one could say also - the German way, in view of 'Bach' and the same for Welsh 'bach'. --Chattan1 (talk) 15:43, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Feline issues

Since the motto "touch not the cat..." contains archaic English, it must have a long tradition in English. Do we know how old it is, and if it was originally English? Clann Chattan was a Gaelic clan, and I would expect the motto was probably (though not necessarily) originally in Gaelic. If so, do we know what it was in Gaelic? (But please, don't anyone translate it INTO Gaeilc - I could do that myself but it would not be authentic.) Obviously it's coincidence that the clan name sounds like the word "cat" (in both English and Gaelic), but the motto is playing on that, and maybe the article should explore that a little more. Did they use other cat metaphors besides the motto and the crest badge? Can we get a picture of the crest badge? So many questions... --Doric Loon (talk) 10:28, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The list according to C. Fraser-Mackintosh

I don't know where the author got his information on that list from, but the one in the book itself is quite different: To start with, the list contains 17 associated clans, not 16, it begins with the Mac Gillivrays allright, but no. 2 is the Mac Beans and not the Macphersons. Fraser-Mac even makes a point in the introduction that he didn't include the latter, "because they probably would be offended if placed among the tribes as dealt with [i. e. the minor septs]". The Davidsons are no. 8, not 4, the MacQueens no. 4, not 10, and the MacPhails are no. 3, not 14. There follows, as no. 18, a list of 9 families under the heading of "The 'Kith and Kin' of Clan Chattan". The Mackintoshes and, as already mentioned, the Macphersons are for obvious reasons not included in a list of minor septs. So all in all, Fraser-Mac's count of Clan Chattan clans comprises 19. 91.21.164.249 (talk) 08:19, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Motto

On the website of the Chattan Association is to be found the following assertion: "The Clan motto is “Touch not the cat bot a glove” – “bot” meaning without." But the graphic here uses the word "cat" with a single T and the word "but". Any ideas, anyone? CharlesSpencer (talk) 17:48, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Panorama South from Chattan Clan monument to Sarah Justina Macpherson of Cluny at Creag Dhubh, Laggan, Scotland

Not sure the photo can be said to be from the "Chattan Clan monument to Sarah Justina Macpherson of Cluny", really. Other than stating the then Cluny's tenuous claim to the chiefship of Clan Chattan (definitively nullified in 1942 if I understand correctly), it merely memorialises a departed mother:

TO THE MEMORY OF

OUR DEARLY LOVED

MOTHER

SARAH JUSTINA
MACPHERSON

OF CLUNY

WIFE OF
EWEN MACPHERSON CB
OF CLUNY MACPHERSON
CHIEF
OF CLAN CHATTAN

SHE LIVED
FOR UPWARDS
OF 50 YEARS
AT CLUNY CASTLE
AND
DIED 19TH MARCH 1886
MUCH BELOVED

AND DEEPLY MOURNED

[1] "Our Motto and Badge". The Clan Chattan Association. Retrieved 2023-06-08.

[2] Matriculation and Confirmation of Arms and Chiefship to Duncan Alexander Mackintosh of Clan Chattan as 31st Hereditary Chief of Clan Chattan, 9th April 1947, Lyon Register, xxxvi. 36. See 1950 Scots Law Times, p.5; Lyon Court Reports.

[1]

[2]