Talk:Clan Bethune

House of Bethune

A related article.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:14, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Multiple issues

Multiple issues with this article:

 When did Béthune in France become a city? For 1000 years it has been a town.

 When was Clan Bethune recognised as a clan in Scotland and when was it made armigerous? Or does it exist only in the USA?

 Where is the evidence that anybody by the name of Béthune was in Normandy in 1066? Or is the name unrecorded there?

 Where is the evidence that anybody by the name of Béthune came to England with William the Conqueror? Do any Norman or English records include the name?

 Has anybody ever produced evidence for the claim made in 1778 by the Rev. Thomas Whyte, minister of Liberton, that the Bethunes of Skye (not Sky) descend from the fifth Bethune of Balfour? Or is the claim mistaken?

 When did the Lord Lyon recognise a clan chief of any Clan Bethune and when did his office grant him (or her) a shield, crest and motto?

 When did the Lord Lyon allow anybody else to use the arms belonging by Scots law to the families of Bethune of Balfour and Lindesay-Bethune?

Hors-la-loi (talk) 19:45, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

There's a book by historian John Bannerman, called The Beatons: A Medical Kindred in the Classical Gaelic Tradition, that is about the medical family of the name. I haven't read it, but reviews of it that I have seen say that he has cleared up the confusion regarding the medical family and the Norman family. Here's a link to one freely viewable academic review: [1]; and one non-free: [2]. Previously people have thought that there was a connection between the medical families and the French family, and I think that's why most of the stuff on the net links the two families (I suspect there are many more people descended from the Hebridean medical family than the French family overseas, considering that the Highlands/Hebrides suffered from mass emigration in the 19th century, and that this may account for some of the enthusiasm of medical family's heritage over the Lowland French family). Apparently the medical family are of Irish origin, arrived in Scotland sometime in the early 14th century, and derive their surname from a Gaelic patronymic (MacBeathadh or MacBeatha, etc.).

The Norman family are apparently the originators of Bethune surname in Scotland. The Dictionary of American Family Names (Oxford University Press), states that the surname is derived from Béthune in Pas-de-Calais, Picardy, France; and that this placename is recorded in the 8th century in Latin as Bitunia. The Gaelic patronymic of the medical family was Anglicised into the various forms such as Beaton and Bethune.

Here's the page for 'Clan Bethune' on the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs website: [3]. I suspect that the actual 'clan' is really the French family, not the medical family; I suspect that members of the French family bore the first recorded coats of arms linked to the surname, and that members of the family were originally the most prominent people with that name. See this webpage which states that the seal of the Bethune recorded in the Ragman Rolls is similar to the heraldry of the family: [4]. I have no idea if the Lord Lyon has ever regarded Bethune of Balfour as Chief of the Name (that website doesn't specifically state that) but they seem to be a senior branch of the family (note how the standing council's webpage on the clan displays Bethune of Balfour's crest in the pictured crest badge).

In Scotland, chiefs of the name possess the undifferenced arms of their surname. Sometimes unrelated families share the same surname, but heraldically-speaking atleast, the chief of the name is 'chief' of everyone with that name (which means that if anyone of that name is granted a Scottish coat of arms, they'll likely end up with one heraldically-subordinate to the chief of their surname). For example, the man who is currently Islay Herald Extrodinary has noted that Fergusson of Kilkerran is considered the Chief of the Name of Fergusson, while there are unrelated families such as that of Fergusson of Glensellich. Since the time Kilkerran was considered Chief of the Name, Glensellich was granted arms which are subordinate.

I'm not sure about the whole 1066 thing. For example, all over the net and in many published works the on the Bruces, the family is said to have 'come over with the Conqueror', but the earliest member of the family is recorded in Britain much later. According to George Fraser Black, the earliest record of the surname Bethune in Scotland dates from 1165-90 (de Betunia). Percy Hilde Reaney states that the names dates from 1195–7 in England (de Betton, de Betun). Maybe the 1066 date is Victorian fantasy. I'd like to know the answers to your questions too. I think that if someone got a hold of Bannerman's book they could clean up this article (at least get the medical family sorted and separated from the Lowland French family that has heraldry associated with it).--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:48, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

I think there are two main issues here, which your interesting post does much to clear up. The first is the origins, so far as we can uncover them, of the Scottish families calling themselves Bethune or Beaton. The second is the right of people with that surname in Scotland and elsewhere to use the Bethune arms.

On origins, I have read a library copy of Bannerman’s book and agree that he goes a long way to show that the families in the Western Isles written as Bethune or Beaton are of local origin. It is these families who since the 18th century have spread around the English-speaking world. As I remember it, Bannerman is quite confident that they have no connection with the Lowland family of Bethune/Beaton, who nowadays are not numerous.

This branch undoubtedly come from the town of Béthune in what was Artois (not Normandy) and first appear in English records in 1101(a), well after 1066 and King William I. Over the years they acquired properties in many counties but sold virtually all in 1242(b), cutting their links with England. Some went north to Scotland, appearing in the records before 1220 as clerics and knights in the counties of Forfar/Angus, Perth and Fife. Sir Alexander Bethune attends Parliament in 1314 and dies in battle in 1332. His presumed son Robert, who was a prisoner of war of the English in the Tower of London in 1346, marries Janet Balfour, eventual heiress to the castle of Balfour in Fife. The clinching evidence for this thread, as you have noted, is heraldic: in both England and Scotland descendants of the Artois family use the ancient shield of the house of Bethune fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Blason_Maison_de_Béthune.svg.

Formal grants of arms in Scotland to members of the Lowland family use the shield of Bethune of Balfour, the senior branch or as one might say chief of the name. Technically, as you no doubt know, in Scots law these are the property of the grantees and nobody else has the right to them. In practice, since there is no effective means of defending the right outside Scotland and no one nowadays is likely to bother in Scotland, nothing stops people adopting the shield, the crest or the motto. That is very different from being entitled to use them because you happen to share the surname. Shouldn't an encyclopedia take note of such legalities, even if in reality they are unenforceable?

(a)1101 Trinity Sunday, 16 June, at Dover. Convention between Robert II, Count of Flanders, and Henry I, King of England, where the count provides 500 knights for 400 silver marks. The Flemish delegation is led by Robert IV of Bethune, who is third signatory, and his son Baldwin is tenth signatory. [Rymer, Acta i,1]

(b)1242 Saturday, 6 September, at Bordeaux. Inspeximus of a charter of Robert, advocate of Arras, lord of Bethune and Dendermonde, granting to Robert of Guines his manors and all rights in England for rent of one lance a year. Witnesses to the confirmation include Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford, Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester, and William de Forz, Earl of Albemarle. [Cal.Pat.Roll 322]

Hors-la-loi (talk) 13:53, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

re "Shouldn't an encyclopedia take note of such legalities, even if in reality they are unenforceable?". Yes, and they are in my view. The arms on the page are labeled with the name of the holder or last known holder, as in this case: Arms of the last Chief of Clan Bethune - Last Chief: The Bethune of Balfour. The word "Arms" is linked to Coat of arms whose page states under "Traditions and usage": "In the heraldic traditions of England and Scotland an individual, rather than a family, had a coat of arms. In those traditions coats of arms are legal property transmitted from father to son...". Also, the image at commons is labeled with Permission: {{insignia}}. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 11:43, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Clan MacBeth redirect

Clan MacBeth redirects to this page. However, I do not see any sources explaining what is the connection of MacBeth to Bethune. This information should be available. I found something at this page: https://www.houseofnames.com/macbeth-family-crest. However, I don't know if the information is valid and legitimate.

ICE77 (talk) 05:50, 7 August 2018 (UTC)