Talk:Clément Ader

Avion 3 in flight?

It is highly questionable that the photograph of the Avion 3 in this article actually shows the machine "in flight," as the caption states. I don't think camera shutter speeds or photographic emulsion were good enough at the time to completely "stop" the motion of the propellers. If the Avion flew, it would have remained very close to the ground, yet no terrain is visible in the image. If there is evidence this photo shows the machine "in flight," I would like very much to see it. If there is no objection, this caption should be changed to remove the words "in flight". 4.227.249.79 16:09, 28 March 2006 (UTC) DonFB

The previous commenter is 100% right. Actually, the image was taken in the workshop of Satory. The french magazine "Science et Vie" published the original of this image in 1990 (#877, October 1990, page 94). I was not able to find the image on the web though. The original image shows the Avion III within the building. The wings seem covered with a white cloth or paper, probably in order to better delineate (or see) the contour from the background (I do not think it is a deliberate attempt to create a fake). (Just for the precision, I personally have no doubt that the machine flew, but this photo is not a proof.)

Hello, I've made studies on Ader in France, with the general Lissarrague, who is the best specialist of Ader's life : I confirm there is no existing photos showing the Avion III in flight, nor the Eole.

Other things :

• Ader never claimed nothing about the Avion II, which was never completed. He use the Avion II to make the Avion III.
• Nobody heared about Wright brothers in France in 1905. Ader explained he was the first flying man after Santos Dumons flight in Paris in 1906 and not before.
• He NEVER made public demonstration in his all life. And he never "Abandoning everything" ! He was rich, and use is money to work on the design of new motors for cars. He made a car company and sold it later to Panhard. I created a overcraft (the first one). At the end of his life, he return in the south and bought a vineyard. For fun, he tested cars for Panhard too.

I hope this information could be usefull for you. As my english is bad, I prefer leave other to correct the article. If you want contact me, go in the french wikipedia and send a message to Saxon.

Rds

Saxon

Birth date

The birth date is April 2, 1841 and not February 4! In French, 2/4/1841 means 2 avril 1841, we indicate first the day and after the month of the date! I am not a number 14:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

POV

As drafted, the article gives the impression that Ader and the commission were frauds trying to steal the Wrights' success. Is that correct? It certainly does not sound very encyclopedic. 193.132.242.1 11:30, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The article no longer reads that way at all... now it appears to claim that the Wrights were frauds in claiming to be the first to flight, and Ader beat them by a decade, which seems awfully biased given the scant evidence. Most of the statements about Ader's flights came during court proceedings in which various corporate entities were trying to find prior art to invalidate the Wright patent on their flight control mechanism. Thus, there was extreme financial pressure to exaggerate historical claims, which may be where some of that sentiment came from. (Incidentally, the Wrights patents were upheld against all challengers in all countries.) --Sam (talk) 14:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I haven't seen the slightest shred of evidence to suggest that his machine ever originally flew. There are no reliable witness accounts, and no one filmed it flying. This isn't noted in the article, either. The article more or less states outright that Ader flew a powered craft before the Wright brothers, but this isn't supported by the evidence. The first flight of a powered craft actually witnessed by independent observers and recorded by film was the Wright brothers flight at Kittyhawk. We need to get this nonsense changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.248.61.9 (talk) 17:13, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, there was one demonstration of his aircraft for the French military. It briefly "hopped" off the ground a few feet, lost control, came back down, and sustained damage. The French military considered it a failed demonstration. The Wrights in later letters said that Ader's failure in front of the military made it harder for them to convince the French (who later turned out to be early Wright customers) that they had succeeded in flight. The Wrights never claimed to be the first to leave the ground at all, but they were the first to leave the ground in a craft that could sustain forward flight and have full 3-axis control. The Wright's work was, by far, the most advanced in the world at scientific airfoil camber measurements and differential angle-of-attack mechanisms to keep the plane coordinated. (Their only patent was on the control.) Everyone else (Ader, Whitehead, etc) were just trying to copy birds. (I saw the Avion III in the Musée des Arts et Métiers in Paris, and it is indeed an impressive machine, but it is not the ancestor of modern aircraft like the Wright Flyer is.) --Sam (talk) 11:47, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Material copied to Airplane

I copied and condensed material from Clément Ader#Development of aircraft to Airplane#Early powered flights with this edit. User:HopsonRoad 02:25, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Etymology of "Avion"

Mrs.Laurent, The Centre Nationale des Resources Textuelle e Lexicales shows the probable origin of "avion" as "Dér. du lat. avis « oiseau »; suff. -on*." Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 16:25, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Hello, indeed it has a link with avis, however this link is from the word Aviation at first (word created during 1863), Ader used Aviation and made an acronyme for name the type of his prototypes, avion for appareil volant imitant un oiseau naturel. The etymology of avion is avis and its signification is appareil volant imitant un oiseau naturel. This word has been officialised by decret during 1912 un honor for him.

He first used the word in 1875, and you can find the first appearance of this word as offcial in the patent 19.04.1890 in the INPI archives , with as signification no acronyme but "appareil ailé pour la navigation aérienne", the acronym for "appareil volant imitant un oiseau naturel appeared after. However, the International Organisation of Civil aviation (OACI), say that indeed the word avion has as signification "appareil volant imitant un oiseau naturel". Mrs.Laurent (talk) 17:30, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply, Mrs.Laurent. Can you supply a link to OACI derivation of Avion as an acronym? I couldn't find one. Even so, if Ader repeatedly used the term without the explanation that it might be an acronym, then it clearly is not a derivation of the word. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 17:50, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

I see this, Mrs.Laurent, Chapitre 5: HISTOIRE ET CULTURE DE L’AERONAUTIQUE ET DU SPATIAL. of BREVET D’INITIATION AERONAUTIQUE by CIRAS Toulouse. It says:

"En 1897 : Clément ADER réalise une évolution de l’Eole équipée de deux moteurs, et celle-ci va s’élever sur 200 m. Son appareil porte le nom d’A.V.I.O.N (N°3) Avion = Appareil Volant Imitant un Oiseau Naturel (Avis = oiseau en latin)".

It's odd that this acronym was attributed only to his third machine, not to the first two. So, I suggest that this remain a footnote. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 14:45, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

I see that fr:Clément Ader doesn't mention this theory of name origin, so I'm disposed to think that it's urban legend and am disinclined to include it without a direct quote from the writings of Ader, himself. Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 15:40, 24 March 2020 (UTC)