Talk:Civilian casualties of strategic bombing

Dresden

Also the numbers for Dresden are wrong, (they are based on old research), the most authoritative numbers are provided in the Bombing of Dresden article and are provided by a commission set up by the city of Dresden that reported last year (2008) and which estimates total number of fatalities was between 18,000 and 25,000. -- Almost exactly what the German police returned in 1945 as an estimate in TB47, that became the victim of a notorious forgery when the Nazis used it to increase the number of fatalities by 10. -- PBS (talk) 10:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Definition

The article does not seem to be focused because there is no definition of what is being measured. Take for example Hamburg, there are 92 raids listed most of them RAF bomber command. It is not a comprehensive list as it does not include most USAAF raids or tactical airforce bombing. bombing of Hamburg in World War II#Timeline.

At the moment it says:

• Hamburg July 1943,[casualites] 50,000, British Royal Air Force (RAF) and United States Army Air Force (USAAF), Fire storm.

The firestorm did not last for all of July 1943 and there were other raids in the month which did not start firestorms:

• night of 28/29 June 1943, nuisance raid, RAF 4 Mosquitos.
• night of 3/4 July 1943, nuisance raid, RAF 4 Mosquitos.
• night of 5/6 July 1943, nuisance raid, RAF 4 Mosquitos.
• 24 July 1943 4:40PM , , 8th USAAF Operation Gomorrah raid.
• 25 July 1943 Blohm & Voss , , 8th USAAF The 384 BG attacked the Hamburg submarine pens.
• night of 24/25 July 1943, large raid, RAF 791 aircraft.
• The night of 25/26 July 1943, diversionary nuisance raid (Essen), RAF 6 Mosquitos attacked Hamburg.
• The night of 26/27 July 1943, nuisance raid, 6 Mosquitos.
• night of 27/28 July 1943, ,RAF 787 aircraft guided in by Pathfinders using H2S bombed about 2 miles east of city centre. firestorm was created.
• night of 28/29 July 1943, nuisance raid RAF roundel.svg 4 Mosquitos.
• night of 29/30 July 1943, ,RAF 777 aircraft guided in by pathfinders marking using H2S.

So what is it that the line in this article is measuring? It certainly is not measuring causality as the numbers given are from those killed during the bombing.

If this is going to be a meaningful table and it is not going to include every raid where one or more people were killed, there needs to be a definition of what is being measured (eg raids in which over 1000 died?). Further if the table is going to be at all useful it has to measure like with like. I.e. either individual raids, or campaigns (what is the definition of a campaign, is it set by the attacker or by the defender?), is Operation Desert Strom one or many campaigns, do we include under the American code word the British contribution, did those on the receiving keep a distinct record on who was killed when so that it is possible to work out who died in which raid? -- PBS (talk) 10:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Other Japanese Cities

What about Yokohama, Tokyo, Toyama, Nagoya, Osaka, Nishinomiya, Shimonoseki, Kure, Kobe, Omuta, Wakayama, Kawasaki, Okayama, Yahata, Kagoshima, Amagasaki, Sasebo, Moji, Miyakonojō, Nobeoka, Miyazaki, Ube, Saga, Imabari, Matsuyama, Fukui, Tokushima, Sakai, Hachioji, Kumamoto, Isesaki, Takamatsu, Akashi, Fukuyama, Aomori, Okazaki, Ōita, Hiratsuka, Tokuyama, Yokkaichi, Ujiyamada, Ōgaki, Gifu, Shizuoka, Himeji, Fukuoka, Kōchi, Shimizu, Omura, Chiba, Ichinomiya, Nara, Tsu, Kuwana, Toyohashi, Numazu, Choshi, Kofu, Utsunomiya, Mito, Sendai, Tsuruga, Nagaoka, Hitachi, Kumagaya, Hamamatsu? TomSchaffter (talk) 23:05, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

References

POV fork

This article cannot be used as a POV fork to show different casualty numbers than the ones that have been arrived at by consensus. Significantly, the numbers are quite different for Hiroshima and Nagasaki as presented here by XXzoonamiXX versus how they are shown at Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Other cities should be checked as well. The encyclopedia must speak with one voice. Binksternet (talk) 02:19, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

This is not a real article and it's hopeless as a list

Can anyone see a reason not to put this up for deletion? TiC ^(talk) 02:55, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me as I am not familiar with debating nor editing at Wikipedia. The section on the Spanish Civil War is utterly delusory and manipulative, certainly sub-par for blog standards, never mind Wikipedia. Madrid (by far the battle or city where civilian casualties were the largest, above ten times any other) is not even mentioned. Some figures are bogus; others a dire fabrication. Seccesionist agit-prop, as warned by George Orwell after his experience with these very goebbelsian characters. Thanks, Wikipedia, please do take care! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.78.200.19 (talk) 15:00, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

London figures are wrong by an order of magnitude

The WWII chart shows 430 casualties in London on one day. The entry includes a link to the London Blitz article. There it states that:

From 7 September 1940, one year into the war, London was systematically bombed by the Luftwaffe for 57 consecutive nights. More than one million London houses were destroyed or damaged and more than 40,000 civilians were killed, almost half of them in London.

That puts total London casualties closer to 20,000 rather than 430. Other users are correct that casualty figures about the same event in different articles should be the same. Ileanadu (talk) 05:24, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

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Zeppelin bombing in WWI

The somewhat extensive Zeppelin bombing, of London and other UK cities, in WWI - probably French, etc, as well, but I'm not familiar with them - surely should be included, and long predates the Spanish Civil War. The Germans used Gotha G.IV bombers, too, so the first airplane raids. Oh, I see German bombing of Britain, 1914–1918 covers it all. Noel (talk) 22:04, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Why is MALTA not on this list?

I'm confused as to why Malta has not been included in this list.

Thanks to being a British base and a strategic WWII stepping stone between Europe and Africa, Malta was bombed by Italy and then Germany for four years straight.

Between 11 June 1940 & 28 August 1944, Malta suffered:

- over 3,000 bombing raids,

- many thousands of tonnes of bombs dropped on it,

- at one point had 154 consecutive days of bombing,

- only had one 24-hour period without a raid in the first 6 months of the war,

- over 1,500 civilian deaths (from a population of 270,000) as a result of enemy action,

- almost 4,000 civilians injured in bombing raids,

- 50,000 people made homeless / refugees (18.5% of the population),

- a population living in diseased and disgusting underground catacombs during raids or full time if they became homeless,

- near starvation because supply ships approaching Malta were also systematically bombed.

Why was this horrid history omitted? Akashic writer (talk) 11:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)