Talk:Citadel of Damascus

Citadel of Damascus has been listed as one of the Art and architecture good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
March 16, 2011	Good article nominee	Listed
April 21, 2011	WikiProject peer review	Reviewed

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on March 21, 2010.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the Citadel of Damascus (pictured) in Syria was built not on the top of a hill, but on flat ground, at the same level as the rest of Damascus city?

Current status: Good article

Syria High‑importance

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Military history: Fortifications / Middle East

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	Fortifications task force
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Archaeology

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Basic TODO list

Expand the history section.
- ~~Mamluke~~ Done
- ~~Ottoman~~ Done
  - In 1860 the Druze-Maronite conflict spilled into Damascus. Many Christians were saved through the intervention of the Algerian exile Abd al-Qadir and his soldiers, who brought them to safety in Abd al-Qadir's residence and the citadel. Yazan (talk) 11:13, 13 March 2010 (UTC) Done[reply]
- ~~French~~ Done
- ~~Modern~~ Done
Expand the architecture section.
- This is a very impressive source. Yazan (talk) 20:13, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Expand the recent conditions section.
- Check this Yazan (talk) 08:03, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Find/create a copyright-free floor plan.
- This presentation has very good floor plans, do you think we can use them? Yazan (talk) 18:52, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yazan (talk) 00:33, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Specific tasks

While wikifying references to the citadel in other articles, I found some potential topics to include:

List some notable prisoners while citadel was prison?
- Article on Izzat Darwaza says he was imprisoned in the citadel, but the reference to this, Abu-Ghazaleh 1973, isn't in the bibliography.
- This article says Ibn Taymiyyah was also imprisoned there. Yazan (talk) 08:09, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- According to this, Abd al-Qadir Qaddura was also imprisoned there for a month. Yazan (talk) 08:17, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Zoeperkoe (talk) 04:17, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Timeline of archaeology, 2000s says 3500 yr old remains have been found inside the citadel, but without reference. I will look this up. If notable and sufficient details are available, we could perhaps make a pre-Islamic section in the history section? Zoeperkoe (talk) 04:22, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Dumper says the citadel stands on the site of the old Roman castrum.Yazan (talk) 11:10, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Damascus: A history mentions excavations inside the citadel in a footnote on page 274, which states "The first reliale clues as to the possibility of Bronze Age settlement in Damascus may come from the recent excavations in the Damascus Citadel by a Franco-Syrian team (Institut Français de Proche Orient, Directorate-General of Antiquities & Museums of Syria) led by Sophie Berthier and Sawsan Khalifeh as well as the soundings of Michel al-Maqdissi (DGAMS)." I'll try to find more about them by following the names of the people and institutions involved. Tiamut^talk 21:41, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

These are probably the same excavations from which the burial referred to above came. If you come across any publications on this that aren't accessible online, let me know, and I can almost certainly get them from my university library. Zoeperkoe (talk) 23:48, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My main source on the citadel, the dissertation by Chevedden which is in the bibliography, says that there is no physical evidence for the existence of a Roman fort on the location of the citadel, and argues that this is (partly) based on a misreading of texts by earlier scholars. So unless the more recent excavations have indeed yielded evidence for Roman occupation (which I have not yet checked), I am inclined to follow Chevedden at the moment. Zoeperkoe (talk) 23:57, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have an electronic copy of Chevedden's dissertation, I've been trying to get a hold of it for a while? Yazan (talk) 11:04, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I only have a hard copy but I will check whether a pdf exists. Zoeperkoe (talk) 17:19, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I found the pdf through my university account of http://www.proquest.com/en-US/access/connect.shtml, so you can try it there if you have an account. It's 30 mb, so otherwise we have to set up a file-share somewhere, as it's too big to email and zipping usually doesn't work well with pdfs. Zoeperkoe (talk) 15:56, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, my university, does not have a subscription there. If it's at all possible, when you have the time, to upload it to some file-share server, I'd be very grateful. Best. Yazan (talk) 16:35, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Location map

The location map should maybe be of a map of Damascus and then pointing out where in Damascus the castle is, instead of where in Syria. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:32, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a map of Damascus? I don't think there is one on WP. Yazan (talk) 12:35, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't there a map of the old city with the walls and gates? I think you used it in the Old city (Damascus) template. Only I don't know how to put the name of the citadel in the map, so may be you could replace the map? Zoeperkoe (talk) 16:15, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The map I created it, except it's not very accurate, I think we can make a better one. On a side note, I received this email concerning the diagrams and photos from the Italian-Syrian cooperation team.

--Hi, we would be gratefull if you can mention: courtesy of: www.nmdcsyria.org The citadel is not yet open to public as mentioned on Wikipedia. It will be in next year when consolidation works made by syrian-italian cooperation will be concluded. Thanks for your interest.

Renzo Carlucci
IE PMU Restoration Laboratories National Museum
Syrian Italian Development Cooperation Programme
Rue Qasser Al Hier - Damascus - Syria
www.nmdcsyria.org
Office: (+963) (011) 44677238
Mobile (+963) (0) 9881481248

--Yazan (talk) 16:26, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think the maps would help very much, but I'm not sure how we can license them. Yazan (talk) 16:28, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Did we use any images from them? I checked and I thought all of them were made by private users who uploaded them to wikipedia as own work. Or did you ask them whether we could use images from their presentation? If it's the latter, they have to officially sign a document that they release the images to wikipedia under one of several copyright notices and that document will be stored by wikipedia, iirc. Zoeperkoe (talk) 16:36, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No images were used from the presentation, they're very low quality any way, but the floor plan could be used. Yazan (talk) 16:45, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So, to be sure, they have actually said that we could use the floor plan?

If so, then it's a matter of copyright. Wikipedia doesn't allow fully copyrighted images to be used (in the sense that no copies/derivatives may be made), so if they allow the use of this map, then it must be under a less strict CR license, and they must agree to that license.

Also, simply redrawing doesn't solve the problem, as the original CR would also attach to the new drawing. I haven't worked with CR images before on wikipedia, so if necessary we better ask a specialist at the helpdesk or so. Zoeperkoe (talk) 17:01, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Location

The article says in the lead that the citadel is located between Bab al-Faradis and Bab al-Nasr, and then in the body it says it is between Bab al-Jabiyah and Bab al-Faraj. I'm not an expert on the ancient Gates of Damascus, but the citadel as it stands now is located between Bab al-Jabiyah (the entrance to the Street Called Straight) and Bab al-Faradis. Not sure if Bab al-Nasr, and Bab al-Faraj are only other names for these. Yazan (talk) 11:12, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure how that got into the article; however I know that in one source I found different names for the gates than where in the article. For now, I would stick with the names as they are in WP, I'll try to look it up and if one of the gates used to have another name, I will add that to that article. -- Zoeperkoe (talk) 14:01, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Citadel of Damascus/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Reaper Eternal (talk) 17:34, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I will be reviewing this article against the good article criteria over the next several days, performing noncontroversial copyedits in the meantime. I will then come back with the review and place it here. I will not fail the article just because it is not completed within 7 days, but I will expect to see some work or a note stating that you won't be able to edit for several days. Thanks! Reaper Eternal (talk) 17:34, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oi, that's fast. Usually it takes weeks before an article is reviewed. The architecture is not yet finished. I am one of the main contributors (but not the nominator, I would have waited with that) and I hope to be able to finish this section this weekend, but I am not sure whether that is going to work. -- Zoeperkoe (talk) 18:09, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine! Just let me know when you are finished, and I will get on with it! Reaper Eternal (talk) 20:05, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Overall this looks good! I will AGF that the offline sources support what you say, since I have none of the books.

Copyediting & prose

"After the assassination of Atsiz bin Uvak, the project was finished the Seljuk ruler Tutush I." Huh? Do you mean "was finished by the Seljuk ruler"?
- Done
"The citadel continued to serve as barracks and prison until 1986, when excavations and restorations started that continue until today." Did they stop this very day? Or are they ongoing? "Until" implies an endpoint.
- Done
After an introductory prepositional phrase, you need a comma before beginning the main clause. I corrected some of these, but they are very widespread. (For example, "In 1234 John of Damascus rode a donkey." should be "In 1234, John of Damascus rode a donkey."
- Done

Referencing & links

The walls are partly obscured from sight by the urban fabric of Damascus, which has encroached upon the citadel during the 19th and 20th centuries. The shops along the north side of the Al-Hamidiyah Souq are built against the citadel's southern façade, while parts of the eastern defences are also obscured by buildings. The buildings that stood against the western wall have been cleared in the 1980s. Unreferenced.
- Done
Ref #47 has as publisher "www.nmdcsyria.org". Change this to the actual publisher of the website.
- Done

Sectioning & structure

Shouldn't the section "Description of the citadel" be "Description of the new citadel" since that is what you are describing?
- Done Changed it to 'The citadel today', since parts of the Seljuk citadel are still standing. -- Zoeperkoe (talk) 16:54, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Review: GA review (see here for criteria)

Looks good now! I'll pass the article!

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
One image is missing author information, but it claims to be {{PD-self}}.
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

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