Talk:Cindy Shatto/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Sportsfan77777 (talk · contribs) 11:26, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll review this article. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 11:26, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Sportsfan77777: Are you still planning on undertaking a review of this article? It's been over 2 weeks. Thanks. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:19, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for the delay. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 11:25, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

Contrary to Muboshgu's edit, I don't think Cindy is a common hypocorism for Cynthia.

Assuming you think my previous inclusion was a fair one, I have readded. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:16, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

won all diving events <<<=== based on the quote later, nearly all?

I think it depends how you read it, but having re-read a few times, I can see how it may be implied to being "nearly" all, as opposed to "just about" being all, so amended. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:20, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

She was admitted to hospital in the early 1970s <<<=== Isn't it specifically 1971? Also, missing "the"

Given it notes the following dates as 71/72 then I don't think it's too ambiguous. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:25, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

during the winter of 1971–1972 (suggest adding "at age 14")

Used as a sentence starter. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:16, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

During the mid-1970s (suggest adding "in-between competing at the 1974 Commonwealth Games and the 1976 Olympics"; otherwise there is really no mention of her sporting career in this paragraph)

Seems like a reasonable addition. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:20, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

but was encouraged by fellow diver Beverly Boys to reflect on the positive aspects of the sport and she took a more positive attitude thereafter. <<<=== should clarify that this is what led her to return to competition for the Olympics.

Fair enough, have extended the sentence to clarify. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:25, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Per MOS:INFOBOXCITE, you only need to link the source once. (It is better if you move it to where it is used in the prose,)

Have removed from infobox and amended prose to create a placement for it. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:16, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Early development

I think "back yard" is one word.

Fair enough, have amended. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:16, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"She would play diving games with her father, using" <<<=== If her father is the one that is "using", then the first part of the sentence should start with "Her father" not "She"

I see what you mean, so have amended. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:16, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

At the age of 9, she would practice 33 feet (10 m) platform diving at the Summerville open-air pool, although as it was built on the edge of Lake Ontario, sometimes the wind would blow her off the tower. <<<=== I think this is too close paraphrasing with the source "At the age of 9, she would practice 33 feet (10 m) platform diving at the Summerville open-air pool, although as it was built on the edge of Lake Ontario, sometimes the wind would blow her off the tower."

I found it a little tricky to reword, but have done my best to restructure while keeping the main point intact. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:25, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On those same sentences, "although" seems misleading. Maybe it made things difficult, but it didn't stop her from training (at least, probably not as much as the more general cold).

I didn't see this as being an issue, but have replaced the phrase. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:25, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also on those sentences, "the wind would blow her off the tower" could be clarified. Do they mean "into the pool"? With the existing wording, it sounds like she could have been in serious danger, which I doubt.

I don't think the ref specifically states this, leaving it up to the imagination/assumption of the reader. I don't know if it's a good idea for me to guess or make assumptions either though. I think the fact she continued training, despite being blown from the tower, implies it would have been a fairly trivial incident. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:25, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Despite the extreme cold weather conditions, she would persevere without complaint <<<=== Maybe just the actual quote from her mother would be better here. "persevere without complaint" doesn't sounds so encyclopedic.

I just removed the latter and concluded with "she persevered". Sometimes less is more. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:25, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"requiring her to live with Webb's family, the first two years being in Winnipeg" <<<=== This seems incomplete. How many years was it in total?

The reference to three years was actually noted at the immediate start of the next section, but I have re-iterated it here too. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:20, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Competitive diving

five hours daily, six days a week or longer ===>>> five hours daily for six days a week, or longer

Amended. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:20, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

on the 3 meter springboard diving event ===>>> in the 3 meter springboard diving event

Fair spot. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:16, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

commonwealth success <<<=== I think Commonwealth should still be capitalized here I think Commonwealth should still be capitalized here (like "Olympic success", not "olympic success")

Seems fair enough. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:20, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

being described as "one of Canada's best divers". ===>>> having been described as "one of Canada's best divers".

Sure. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:17, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"considered giving it up to live a more traditional lifestyle of parties and vacations." <<<=== "giving it up" is too informal, maybe "leaving diving" instead. The next part "a more traditional lifestyle of parties and vacations" also seems too informal, not sure I would call that traditional (or even mutually exclusive).

I have made some amendments, though I don't see any issue referring to it as traditional (which was meant comparatively to the career of diving, as per the citation). Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:17, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would recommend specifying the years in which she was depressed (most of 1974 and 1975 --- I assume after the Commonwealth Games gold medal in January, owing to "her performances didn't reflect her ability as a top three diver.") because it's not clear that this happened before the Olympics (both here, and in the lead)

I didn't think mid-1070s was particularly ambiguous (not like, say, 1970s) but I have amended. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:17, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Olympic section doesn't specify that she didn't qualify for the 3 metre event, or introduce her getting into 10 m diving (I think she did primarily 3 m before? Not sure if she continued with 10 m after the Olympics?). It also doesn't specify that she is competing in the 10 m event.

Made some changes, but I may go further still. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:17, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would also suggest adding the ages at which she competed at the Olympics and at which she retired. As of now, it's hard to appreciate that she retired at 21 based on what is written.

Sure, added in. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:17, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This section only mentions three competitive events: one World Championship, one Commonwealth Games, and one Olympics. Did she compete in any other high-level events? For instance, I see she won gold medals at national meets in 1972 and 1973. That's not probably not the only thing missing.

Quite possibly. Seems she won many local or run-of-the-mill events and I wasn't sure what's worth mentioning and what isn't. Guess I can consider national occasions though. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:11, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think "sabbatical" is too informal. Either "hiatus" or just "break".

I'm not sure it is too informal. Hiatus means practically the same thing. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:17, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Prior to this, she had not taken more than three weeks off at a time and spent her entire sabbatical relaxing away from a diving board" <<<=== "away from a diving board" is too informal. Also, it doesn't work that the first part of the sentence is a "not" and the second part is not "a not" (needs to have parallelism (grammar), or be split into separate sentences)

I guess the latter of this sentence is already implied by the fact she took a break and upon another readover, seems redundant, so I have removed this and just left the first part. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:11, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Later life

and an assistant to the owner of Mundial International after this <<<=== re-word to avoid ending a sentence with "this".

Yes I agree reading it back, so amended. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:17, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

She answered an advertisement in September 1990 for a job as a diving coach at Binghamton University <<<=== This section doesn't make it clear that she did in fact become a diving coach there.

I have expanded the sentence. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:11, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Personal

She attended Rideau High School[4] and her father, Dick Shatto, was a professional Canadian football player.[2] Her mother was Lynne Shatto (nee Garlough[18]) and Cindy was the third of five children. <<<=== This seems imbalanced. I don't think it makes sense to put her father and mother each as half of a separate sentence, instead of just together in one sentence.

I have restructured the sentence. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:16, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Dick Shatto, was a professional Canadian football player (suggest adding "and a member of the Canadian Football Hall of Fame")

I hadn't picked up originally that this was actually a wiki-linkable article, so have now linked. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:16, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Overall

I would suggest the mention of Shatto in every paragraph be "Shatto" rather than "she".

Not sure I follow the reason here, especially when it's suggested so broadly rather than in specific circumstances? Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:11, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really know how competitive diving works, but does she have some sort of specialty types of dives, or certain dives that she was good at? (Do all the competitors just do the same dives?) The Expositor source mentions at least one thing related to this.

I am unsure to be honest. The Expositor source doesn't appear to allude to this, plus refers to a very early period when she was a child, so at that time would not have been professional. Maybe she had preferred methods but I don't know how much of that was understood or reported on during the 1960s/70s. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:16, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I was concerned by at least a few instances of close paraphrasing on the first read-through a few weeks ago when I started the review. I would recommend double-checking looking for other such instances I didn't catch. I didn't really try to find them all. (I was going to do a more exhaustive check, but I haven't had time.)

I have developed a number of other articles since that time from historic newspapers and considered some of this when reading through again recently, though I don't (and didn't) think it was as significant an issue as suggested. I appreciate though that from an encyclopedic perspective, some of the paraphrasing wasn't ideal. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:11, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are parts in the lead and the competitive diving section where the athletic side of her life/career should be emphasized more. The close paraphrasing was the biggest problem, some of which you already addressed at least to some extent, but some of it remains and I may not have found all of it. I'll read through the article again after these comments are addressed. On hold. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 11:25, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Sportsfan77777: Thanks for the review. I had made some further changes and copyediting while I waited and did reconsider some of the expressions used on another read-over, thinking perhaps similarly that their value wasn't necessarily to an encyclopedic standard. It seems you already thought that too, though i'll look more closely if you think this may remain an issue. It's fairly easy to rectify and i'll also address your other points in due course. Thanks. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:18, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Sportsfan77777: I have been chipping away at this over the past few weeks and have near enough worked through your suggestions (I can perhaps revisit some, but I have at least offered a response on all now). I'd welcome an update from yourself regarding the posted changes and how this fits in to your view regarding progressing with the review. Thanks. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:16, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Sportsfan77777: It's possible you may have forgotten about this, but as I took a little time working through, I didn't want to pester you about it. There may be one or two minor things I could adjust perhaps, but the foundations of the review I think are largely complete. Thanks. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:43, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, passing! Sportsfan77777 (talk) 08:18, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Sportsfan77777: Many thanks for this. I was starting to grow a little concerned that you had lost interest ;) Thanks again for your thorough review and it's nice this is now of a suitable "good" standard! Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:22, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]