Talk:Cimon

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Can someone please rewrite or heavily edit this article? The many unneeded commas almost make this article worthless. Unless William Shatner wrote this, it could use about half of these commas removed. Thanks 69.21.52.57 04:21, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Strongly agree, it's absolutely unreadable. 72.19.90.241 (talk) 06:21, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I changed the part about Cimon's ostracism. It formerly sounded as if Cimon had been turned away by Sparta after the Helot revolt prompted by the earthquake in 464. In fact, that time Sparta accepted Cimon's help and pushed the Helots back to Ithome. It was not until 462, the second time that Cimon (who loved the Spartans) responded to their call, that they turned away Athenian help. (See "The Greeks: History, Culture, and Society" by Morris and Powell, pgs. 275-276) - Justin

This article desperately needs references to both primary ancient sources (mostly The History of the Peloponnesian War, I imagine) and secondary sources. I don't have the time right now do this - perhaps the original author(s) would be good enough to work it over, since they will know their sources. Latinata 14:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Edited to add - yes, Plutarch is a source, but paragraph references and a nod to his Lives is needed, and possibly a link to the perseus.tufts.edu text.

This article is almost entirely referenced by Plutarch's Lives, which is considered one of the most questionable references of historical source accounts... For this article to have any historical viability it requires additional source or secondary materials as points of reference. Plutarch, although necessary for inclusion as a source, should be augmented by Thucydides (as noted above), Herodotus, the Athenian Politaei, 5th century dramas, and other secondary sources citing archeological and interpretive support. Stevenmitchell 00:49, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

On Kimon > Cimon

I have my misgivings about the article being moved to 'Cimon' and placed under a redirect. The Wikipedian naming conventions indeed state that particularly common uses take precedence over standard rules; the spelling 'Cimon' is used with decreasing frequency in accounts of the historical figure (there are academic sites online which include it for clarification next to the 'Kimon' spelling), and it is never used with reference to contemporary Greeks with that name, where 'Kimon' is preferred exclusively (for example in the case of the politician Kimon Koulouris).

I think a usage like the one in about.com, where the spelling 'Kimon' is used for the original header and 'Cimon' is mentioned as an alternative spelling, better reflects that 'Kimon' is becoming more prevalent in usage. Can we have the article reverted back to the original heading? ezgeez 00:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, actually I was thinking exactly the opposite; K's were more common in the 19th century, but have been largely giving way to C's over the past 100 years. This is in English of course, and Greek may be different, but as this is an English article, the title should be the common English usage. --Robth^Talk 01:29, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I was not referring to Greek usage. The Greek usage indeed would include an omega instead of an omicron as well. I was actually referring to usage within contemporary texts in English. This is not an English article--it is a Wikipedia article in English, and I think the way the name is spelt should acknowledge broader / international trends in its usage (including how it is used, in English texts, to refer to contemporary Greeks) not just in English historical accounts.

As you have made the point though, it is interesting to note that The University of London Institute of Classical Studies has published Plutarch's account of Kimon/Cimon as 'Plutarch, Life of Kimon'. (edited by A. Blamire, 1988). Again, I think this reflects a broadening usage of the 'Kimon' spelling influenced by the fact that Kimon/Cimon is still alive as a name, the 'Kimon' spelling being used exclusively--in *English* texts--when referring to contemporary Greeks with that name. I think the previous article heading reflected this better and should have been kept. 87.74.117.233 11:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC) Oops, sorry, wasn't logged in for that ezgeez 11:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but both a google search and a google books search will show the opposite. Also, WP:GREEK guideline is for latinized transliteration, not scientific transliteration.--Aldux 12:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I have just done precisely that--a Google search and a Google books search--and am not sure how you have quantified 'the opposite'. Google books search seems to prove exactly my point, listing academic texts such as Athenian Politics by Greg R. Stanton, The Greek World by Anton Powell, Athenian Officials by Robert Develin and numerous others alongside entries on contemporary Greeks. ezgeez 00:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Kimon is certainly still used in some cases, such as those you have cited. However, as an english speaker who has spent an appreciable fraction of the past few years studying ancient Greece, I am comfortable saying that Cimon is currently by far the more common usage when talking about the ancient name (modern names are not necessarily transliterated in the same way as ancient), and has been for the past 50 years or so. --Robth^Talk 00:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm sorry you were dealing with dishonest/badly informed nincompoops, but of course you are correct as Google Ngram made clear a few years after your disagreement. Cimon-with-a-C is still the COMMON ENGLISH form of the name but it's increasingly infrequent and the trend is against Latinate forms of Greek names in most cases, including this one. Google Scholar still puts Cimon-Athens ahead of Kimon-Athens, but it's within the same order of magnitude so in a decade or two this'll probably be a done thing like Beijing/Peking. — LlywelynII

the Long Walls

it says that the Long Walls "surrounded Athens". Wouldn't it be more correct to say something like "stood along the road connecting Athens with her port Piraeus?" idiotoff 05:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Male lovers

Cimon was known to have male lovers. That should be in the article too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.232.159 (talk) 16:47, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Some old edits

Some old edits that used to be at the title "Cimon" can now be found at Talk:Cimon/Old edits. Graham87 05:46, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Cimon/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Needs citations and further analysis.--Yannismarou 11:04, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Last edited at 11:04, 8 October 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 11:46, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Sources for future article expansion

There's more at the EB9 article on "Greece" and the EB11 article on Cimon, which—while sometimes biased—can be used to expand the article or support various factual points that are still uncited. The following

• Burn, A. R. (1948). Pericles and Athens. London: English Universities Press.
• Kagan, Donald (1969). The outbreak of the Peloponnesian war. Ithaca: Cornell University Press. ISBN 0-8014-0501-7.
• Laistner, M. L. W. (1957). A History of the Greek World from 479 to 323 BC. London: Methuen.
• McGregor, Malcolm F. (1987). The Athenians and their empire. Vancouver: University of British Columbia Press. ISBN 0-7748-0269-3.
• Meiggs, Russell (1973). The Athenian empire. Oxford: Clarendon Press. ISBN 0-19-814296-X.
• Plutarch (1960). The Rise and Fall of Athens: Nine Greek Lives. Ian Scott-Kilvert, trans. Baltimore: Penguin Books.
• Sealey, Raphael (1976). A History of the Greek City States, c 700-338 BC. Berkeley: University of California Press.

may be very well and good but (a) we shouldn't be hawking particular editions of classic texts without good, noted reason and (b) the rest need some context or use in the article to make them more useful than a "Kimon"/"Cimon" search at Google Books. Kindly restore them as they are used to verify inline points or once they have been glossed (ideally in a historiography or legacy section) to explain their bias/importance to the scholarship on Kimon. — LlywelynII 06:33, 3 November 2016 (UTC)