Talk:Christum wir sollen loben schon, BWV 121/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Nominator: Gerda Arendt (talk · contribs) 21:43, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: K. Peake (talk · contribs) 19:28, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is reasonably well written.
a. (prose, spelling, and grammar):

b. (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a. (reference section):

b. (citations to reliable sources):

c. (OR):

d. (copyvio and plagiarism):
It is broad in its coverage.
a. (major aspects):

b. (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a. (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):

b. (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/fail:

(Criteria marked are unassessed)

This review will commence today, although I will not be finished until tomorrow. Apologies for taking a while, I've been very busy. --K. Peake 19:28, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox and lead

Infobox looks good!
The mention of it being part of his Chorale cantata cycle should only be in the second para; the first one should change this sentence to mentioning the hymn as a German translation after its title
"Christum wir sollen loben schon is part of" → "The cantata is part of" and move this to being in the first paragraph since it is too short currently
"In the format of this cycle," → "In the format of Bach's second cycle," as this can start the second para
Merge the third para with the second one from the outer movements sentence onwards
I hope I got what you meant, please check. I left "format of this cycle", though. After just having introduced its two names, I think there's no need to repeat one of them.
Talking about format: I made some changes to make this article consistent with the others:
1. convert references to sfn
2. give the sections in Movements headers of just the movement number
3. convert the list of recordings to a table
Nikkimaria, who contributed substantially to the article more than 10 years ago, reverted the sfn references and the subheaders, and changed the format of the table in appearance both in article and in edit mode. I like that in other articles the condutcor / choir / ensemble appear together as a team, while now the conductor is listed separately (also creating whitespace). I like in edit mode to supply each parameter in a new line. What do you think about the changes that came without explanation? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:15, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think with the changes having come from the experienced editor, some of these are fine to leave due to stylistic preferences. One thing from here I missed however, where is the canta sourced as being his second cycle as Thomaskantor? --K. Peake 09:13, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a citation confirming that. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:43, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To explain: (1) changing referencing format to match other articles is generally not appropriate; (2) as per MOS:OVERSECTION, "Very short sections and subsections clutter an article with headings and inhibit the flow of the prose. Short paragraphs and single sentences generally do not warrant their own subheadings"; (3) having specific datapoints associated with specific headers rather than combined is generally better for accessibility, although combining is unavoidable for the ensembles since in some cases there is only a single link. On my screen the current design also has less whitespace; where are you seeing more on yours? That is probably something that could be adjusted. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:37, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

History and words

Good

Music

Structure and scoring

Good

Movements

I would suggest merging the first para with the second one since not only is this one sentence, it also leads into further information about where the canta came from
I moved the first para, about the hymn tune, above. In reply to Nikkimaria (above), I think that the movement numbers would improve clarity, and only two of six are short (= 2 sentences). They would also ease later editing: a user wanting to change something in one movement would have a hard time finding the spot in the large section. --GA

Someone editing the section can be guided by the anchors. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:43, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"It begins in" → "The motet begins in"
done using "movement" --GA
The symmetrical scheme part is not sourced, unless I'm missing something?
in the source, it's called "conventional scheme", - perhaps replaced (not by me) to avoid copyvio --GA
"John the Baptist's leaping in his" → shouldn't you use something like "leaping into his" without the possessive language too here?
removed two possessives --GA
Sixth para looks good!
"illuminating the early-church" shouldn't you start this as a new sentence with "This illuminates..." to avoid a run-on here?
sentences split --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:02, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Manuscripts and publications

Good

Recordings

Per MOS:TABLECAPTION, shouldn't there be a title here?
So I thought, and it was there until Nikkimaria removed that also (same for the table of movements, btw). As she structured the table differently, I can't simply restore the former version.
About the structure, in reply to Nikki's question above: On my screen, I see (generally) four lines for each entry, because of the four soloists. With the grouping of conductor / choir / ensemble together, in a template created by RexxS for the purpose, the group often takes a similar space in one column. With the conductor split off, we get two columns instead. In the conductor column, I see the name sometimes in one line, resulting in 3 empty lines, or split in two (which I find undesirable) which still leaves two empty lines. Also: more columns make it harder to look at on mobile devices. Finally: besides all this, I like the conductor as part of a team, not singled out. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:02, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a caption and reorganized the table. The table of movements already has a caption. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:43, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for combining conductors and ensembles. You placed the conductor below the ensembles, preceded by "conducted by" for every single one, and gave the column the title "Ensemble(s)". I replaced the long phrase by our usual abbreviation "cond." and made the header "Ensembles, conductor".

Questions:
My understanding is that the header is not for the article where it is redundant (especially "Recordings", after the Section header was Recordings and the only sentence between that header and the table speaks of the table of recordings) but for statistics of tables. I may be wrong. In other articles, the cantata title is repeated in that title.

@Nikkimaria: Why would you place the conductors, for whom these recordings are known, at the end?

@N.: Why do you use any repetitive description in every entry of a table? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:49, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The redundancy is why I did not initially include a caption. I don't know what you mean by "statistics of tables", but would have no objection to re-removing.

You suggested that the columns should be combined because the conductor is "part of a team, not singled out". In that model the conductor is part of the ensemble. The inclusion of the description helps orient the reader to which of the foreign-language things listed is a person rather than an ensemble, without needing to click through.

Notes

Good

References

Copyvio score looks good at 38.7%; the quote matches are mostly for titles so no problem here!
Cite Bach Digital as publisher instead on ref 2
Wikilink University of Alberta on ref 7
Allmusic → AllMusic with the wikilink on ref 10
Add Emmanuel Music as publisher with the wikilink on ref 11
I changed the four refs. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:11, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

External links

Good

Final comments and verdict

On hold until all of the issues are fixed; came through this quickly! --K. Peake 09:13, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did what I could, please check.

I suggest that I restore the table of recordings to the format used in all other Bach cantatas, per my explanations. Do you agree?

I'd leave the references as they are, - we have already a discussion on the talk, and you seem not to care. Do you agree? I was trained to use a defined list of references with Franz Kafka (in 2012) and the articles by Jerome Kohl (such as Stockhausen), and try to use it for all articles of higher quality as simply better, but am willing to compromise.

What do you think about the subheaders for the movements? I am willing to live without them, but find it a needlessly unstructured section that way, with links not really transparent from the table of movements to the movements. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:24, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gerda Arendt Great work on this and I'm fine with the table captions using the title or not this is not a matter of dispute for me, although I do disagree with the hymn sub-section per it being overly short - maybe merge with song structure info and don't have this as a sub-section of music, only have movements as a sub? --K. Peake 08:22, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I said I can live without movement subheaders. There was one other GA I recall with Nikkimaria as a principal author. FAs though, and most GAs, do have them. I still have the questions to her regarding the placement of the conductor, because I really would like to understand. They could go to the talk page, as unrelated to GA. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:28, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll move the hymn information. It could become a subsection again when expanded, but four other cantatas for the feast days are waiting ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:31, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]