Talk:Christian Democracy (Italy, 2002)

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DC and People of Freedom

Judging by their website, this incarnation of DC seems to be either in, of supporting, the People of Freedom party/coalition.--Free Socialist 18:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's indeed correct. --Checco (talk) 12:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move - doesn't appear to be any issues regarding the move. Kilo T 22:58, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Christian Democracy (Italy, current) → Christian Democracy (Italy, 1997) –

Per above. --Checco (talk) 15:45, 2 June 2011 (UTC) Checco (talk) 15:45, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- ("above" here = Talk:Christian Democracy (Italy, historical)#Move?, which see also. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:27, 3 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]
Should also follow English idiom and call these Christian Democrats or possibly Christian Democratic Party as with similar parties outside Italy; we prefer English usage to literal translations. I will not contest an emended request, although others may. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:55, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The two parties are widely known as "Christian Democracy" and we generally use literal translations when dealing with parties. The point here is simply not to have "historical" and "current" in the titles as they are not very encyclopedic terms. --Checco (talk) 23:58, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Title and date of foundation

The title and the date of foundation are wrong, it seems that the Dc founded by Flaminio Piccoli and this Dc are two different parties (read this source: [1]). The date 23 december 1997 is referred to the Rebirth of Cristian Democracy, while there isn't a precise date of foundation of this party. Also the name Christian Democracy (Italy, current) was wrong (for recentism), the page can be moved to Christian Democracy (Italy, new) or to Christian Democracy (Giuseppe Pizza) (I prefer the first name). The redirect "Christian Democracy (Italy, 1997)" has to be deleted (or redirected to a new page on the Rebirth of Christian Democracy) --Maremmano (talk) 20:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I need to think throughly on this. The article already mentions that the party was launched as "Rebirth of Christian Democracy". We need to discuss whether 1997 is correct, but in any case I would like to make clear that I strongly support the "Christian Democracy (Italy, 19XX)" format. --Checco (talk) 14:34, 20 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Also for me the format "(Italy, XXXX)" is better, but the title "Christian Democracy (Italy, 1997)" is really wrong. The source doesn't say that this party was launched as "Rebirth of Christian Democracy". RDC (or F. Piccoli's DC) is a party born in 1997 and initially led by Flaminio Piccoli. In 2000 Piccoli joined to PDC and the RDC. This party celebrated the XIX congress in 1998. In 2002 there is another XIX congress, this time celebrated by the Christian Democracy led by Sandri and Pizza. Therefore RDC and this Cristian Democracy are two different parties and this page needs a new name! This Dc hasn't a precise date of foundation, or better this party was theoretically founded in 1942 (for a sentence).--Maremmano (talk) 10:56, 21 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I move the page to "Christian Democracy (Italy, new)". It isn't a great title, but it is better that "Christian Democracy (Italy, 1997)". This party wasn't born in 1997--Maremmano (talk) 09:51, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There was no consensus for the move to that name, and the name format really should be "Christian Democracy (Italy, 19XX)".--Autospark (talk) 00:18, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but 1997 was totally wrong (there are the sources), i had to move the page --Maremmano (talk) 08:16, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The page could be named "Christian Democracy (Italy, 2002)", but I am very sceptic on this title--Maremmano (talk) 22:18, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You should stop moving articles at your pleasure and without gaining consensus first. --Checco (talk) 07:34, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As there are also Christian Democracy (Italy, 2004) and Christian Democracy (Italy, 2012), the current name of the article is not acceptable. We need to determine the year of foundation of this party—and I think that 1997 and a joint article with Rebirth of Christian Democracy was perfectly OK. Any other ideas? I'm especially interested in what Autospark has to say and whether Maremmano is able to find a different foundation date. --Checco (talk) 10:15, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that Christian Democracy (Italy, 1997) should be kept as the article title, until or if a more accurate foundation date can be ascertained. A joint article with 'Rebirth' is a good suggestion as well.--Autospark (talk) 11:46, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Autospark, have you read the sources? I don't think. The title Christian Democracy (Italy, 1997) is really wrong, The Rebirth of Christian Democracy was another party, mergerd in this DC in 2002, then returned autonomous and finally merged into Christian Democracy (Italy, 2004) in 2012. The RDC celebrated the XIX congress in 1998, this DC in 2002. It is obvious that are two different parties. RJFF has been wrong to move the page to Christian Democracy (Italy, 1997). If you want a foundation date, this party was founded in 2002 and not in 1997. Therefore, if you disagree on the previous title, the page has to be moved to Christian Democracy (Italy, 2002) --Maremmano (talk) 19:53, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Could you explain which pages of the provided source support your views, notably 1) that the party of this article (let's call it "DC ????") was not RDC under a new name; 2) that DC ???? was founded in 2002 from scratch; 3) that RDC split from DC ???? somewhere between 2002 and 2004 (when exactly?). In case you do that, I will be more than welcome to support your move proposal. Many many thanks, --Checco (talk) 08:43, 4 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problems to prove my affirmations:

1) In this source (^[dead link]) there are two important affirmations:

"La struttura centrale e periferica di Rinascita della Democrazia Cristiana rimane a disposizione per collaborare fattivamente alla campagna di tesseramento ed alla riorganizzazione del partito su tutto il territorio nazionale"
"Come è stato annunciato dal Presidente nazionale del partito On. Carlo Senaldi nel corso della recente Assemblea nazionale di Rinascita della Democrazia Cristiana (svoltasi a Roma in data 21 dicembre 2001) il nostro partito è pronto a confluire da subito nella “casa madre” a cui da sempre abbiamo fatto riferimento."

2)The DC wasn't founded in 2002 from scratch, the previous source explain that RDC participated in the reconstitution of DC but not that the RDC became the DC

3)There isn't a precise source about the split of RDC, but in this source ([2] pag. 20) there is a particular affirmation: "nei primi mesi del 2003 a finire davanti al Tribunale di Roma è lo stesso Carlo Senaldi, rimasto nel frattempo presidente di Rdc, cui con un provvedimento d’urgenza viene chiesto di rimuovere dal contrassegno che eventualmente sarà presentato alle elezioni la denominazione «Democrazia cristiana», per non creare confusione col partito omonimo (che pure, in qualche modo, era nato da lì) tra i potenziali elettori". Certainly RDC had already returned autonomous in 2004 ([3]).

Therefore it is evident that RDC and DC were not the same party. The source also distinguishes between DC-Piccoli (RDC or Dc 1997) and DC-Pizza (the party in question). The first/XIX congress of this party was celebrated in 2002. There isn't any source that says that RDC changed name into DC. In conclusion, it is evident that "Christian Democracy (Italy,1997)" is wrong. The only solutions are "Christian Democracy (Italy, new)" or "Christian Democracy (Italy, 2002)". I have demonstrated all, now you decide--Maremmano (talk) 10:54, 5 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your detailed and authoritative answer. From what you wrote, I still find room for a joint article, but I agree that, if this article is splitted in two, the two articles should be named "Rebirth of Christian Democracy" and "Christian Democracy (Italy, 2002)". Your knowledge on the issue is far larger than mine, thus I don't have any more reservations on the proposed two-article solution. Any other opinions from other users? --Checco (talk) 07:40, 7 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No objections to Maremmano's 'two article solution', that is with one of the articles being titled "Christian Democracy (Italy, 2002)".--Autospark (talk) 10:59, 7 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Good, I move the page to "Christian Democracy (Italy, 2002)". Now it is also necessary an autonomous page for RDC, that is a redirect on this page--Maremmano (talk) 23:44, 7 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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