Talk:Chow mein/Archive 1

Archive 1

Wrong

This is wrong. Note:

• There may indeed be a "real" Chinese noodle-related dish with a name sounding like chow mein.
• This is en.wikipedia.org, the English wikipedia, not cn.wikipedia.org
• In English, the term "lo mein" is the dish containing soft noodles.
• In English, "chow mein" is normally lacking in noodles (it has a small amount of pale thin sauce though)

In other words, if the "real" Chinese dish with noodles is pronounced "chow mein", then the Chinese "chow mein" is the English "lo mein" and I don't know if there is a Chinese name for the dish called "chow mein" in English.

Rarely, fast food places may add crunchy noodles on top of chow mein, but this is not exactly standard. It's an add-on that appears to be going out of style.

I'd fix this with a simple move, except that I can't tell if the Chinese characters need to be adjusted. I can delete them if need be; perhaps the reader should just use cn.wikipedia.org if they want to see the Chinese characters.

• I googled several recipes for chow mein and they all contain noodles. Kingdom of Loathing recipes contain noodles as well. I don't see any point in moving the page. Grue 08:43, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Speaking from my personal experience, only: In California, the noodle dish is "chow mein," while in New York, Massachusetts, and other parts of the Eastern U.S., the same dish is referred to as "lo mein" while "chow mein" is the noodleless dish with pale thin sauce.

Having lived around San Francisco and Los Angeles my entire life, and ordered from literally hundreds of Chinese restaurants, I'm going to agree with you. My brother lives in Boston and has been experiencing the noodle-less "chow mein" as well. Conceivably the lack of a literal meaning to the phrase "chow mein" could be included in the article (what is it?). brain (talk) 15:31, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank God we have Wikipedia, allow a chow mein expert to bring some light to this argument. While I have not had the west coast chow mein, the east coaster posting above has missed one crucial argument for the noodle based chow mein. Think back to the last time you ordered a small chicken or shrimp chow mein. You might have forked out the white rice onto a plate, poured on the contents of the chow mein. Perhaps you reached into the bag and grabbed a plastic fork, maybe some soy sauce. Was there anything else in that bag? Think very carefully. Yes, there is a small bag (that many people discard) with some crunchy, fried noodles. There are you fried noodles my friend. Next time, test one for freshness (or should I say staleness) and top your chow mein with some delicious fried noodles and soy sauce. Your taste buds might just thank me. Modesty84 17:11, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

sounds yummy Modesty84 !

My God, you sound so incredibly ridiculous and pompous. I don't wish to start a fight as I don't even know who you are but I don't know how else to characterize your statement. Chow mein expert?!? Do you have a medal or a trophy? I guess you enjoy drinking your soy sauce with a side of soggy starch and call it tasty food. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.65.114.99 (talk) 03:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

San Francisco

Sure it wasn't chop suey that was invented in San Francisco? AlbertCahalan 04:56, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

It appears that Chow Mein was invented in the United States, at least according Iris Chang, in The Chinese in America. Apparently, a Chinese cook accidently dropped a batch of noodles in a pot of simmering oil and it became a hit with the customers. Chang cites two sources:

• Imogene L. Lim and John Eng-Wong, "Chow Mein Sandwiches: Chinese American Entrepreneurship in Rhode Island," Origins & Destinations, pp. 417-35
• Peter Kwong, The New Chinatown (New York: Hill and Wang, 1987, first edition, and 1996, revised edition), p. 34

However, Chang is a controversial auther, so it may be well to check these two and maybe secondary sources as well to confirm this. --Yuje 02:49, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

If Chow mein as a specific dish is supposed invented in the US, while we all know there are countless 炒面s of various styles in Chinese cuisine, is it then appriopriate to split this article into two for better clarity?--Huaiwei 04:14, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it would do to describe the specific Chow Mein dish in one section, and in another section state that 炒麵 in Chinese is a generic term for many different kinds of stir-fried noodle dishes, perhaps giving descriptions and examples. It should also be noted in places in the US that have large Chinese communities (and therefore "authentic" food catered to ethnic Chinese), chow mein and chow fun 炒粉 (and sometimes chow fan 炒飯) are also used as generic term per the Chinese sense. --Yuje 05:17, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Or is it better for the page title to be Fried noodles and Fried rice instead?--Huaiwei 05:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Allegedly, some varieties of Chow Mein don't even contain noodles. Being from one of the aforementioned areas, I've never actually seen or tried this dish, so I can't comment, though. If splitting the article, though, the usual translation would be stir-fried noodles, not fried noodles. The only objection I might have is that such a title doesn't make the distinction between 炒麵 and 炒粉.--Yuje 05:43, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes they are stir-fried, but so is Fried Rice, which is still "erronously" refered to as "fried". Either we may split them, or have a general article on fried noodles and a section on Chow mein instead, such as the example in fried rice? I understand some dishes dont even contain noodles, but being named Chow mein is just as confusing anyway.--Huaiwei 05:49, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

The difference being that fried noodles usually refers to pan-fried noodles, such as Hong Kong fried noodles, 香港煎麵. But never mind; I went ahead to create the fried noodles page, and noted the difference between the two. --Yuje 15:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Fried rice can also be pan-fried rice as well, if you did not realise. Btw, does "fried noodles" usually refer to pan fried noodles? Even the Fried noodles page does not seem to support this suggestion.--Huaiwei 16:12, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

That's because I just wrote it. --Yuje 16:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I know. It does seem like its mainly stir-fried rather than pan-fried thou.--Huaiwei 16:49, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Removing a stub

I'm removing the Hong Kong-related article stub because there is no difference between this being a dish from China or a dish from Hong Kong. Their cultural is nearly identical, especially in cuisine. Nothing special here. Let me know why you disagree if you do. Pandemic 07:15, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Hong Kong and China have the same culture? Are you mad? In terms of food, the food eaten in HK is far more western - though it doesnt taste anything like you would get in the west (Europe, US etc) and they still eat Chicken Feet, Sharks Fin etc - compared to the surrounding area where cats, dogs, snakes and virtually every organ of every farm animal is found on the menu.

Aye buddy, no offence but that - "their cultural is nearly identical" - was probably one of the more ignorant things I've heard to date. GeneralChan 09:20, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I must agree that Hong Kong culture differs a great deal from mainland Chinese culture, but when it comes to cooking ingredients there are very few differences. Chicken feet are certainly eaten on both sides of the border, and while dog meat is presently illegal in Hong Kong, snake meat and the internal organs of many farm animals as well as those of fish are still considered something of a delicacy, and are available in many traditional restaurants/eateries. As for western food as it is served in Hong Kong, there are several restaurants providing truly authentic European, American, Canadian and Australian cuisine for the right price. NB: Sorry for the tangent! Moming qimiao (talk) 17:06, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Your western cultural bias is showing. Just because the cuisine is from the east does not mean it should be lumped together and is undeserving of separate articles. Witness this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbecue_in_the_United_States#Main_regional_styles which has links to various extensive articles about different styles of barbecues just within the United States. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aldayuan (talk • contribs) 22:13, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Picture

That picture looks like Lo Mein, not Chow Mein. --RLent 21:35, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Bean-sprout variety

I know of several Chinese restaurants in the northeast US which serve a Chow Mein which does not have noodles at all - it is mainly bean sprouts and vegetables instead. Most east coast Chinese places I've seen refer to the dish described here as "Lo Mein", while Chinese places I've been to on the west coast have never heard of "Lo Mein", yet serve essentially the same dish under the name "Chow Mein". Has anyone else noticed this discrepency? Lurlock 04:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, here in New York Chow Mein is almost always this strange celery and bean sprout dish served with rice. I have never seen it as noodles in NYC. This describes lo mein as far as I am concerned. Lietkynes65 (talk) 23:34, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Caribbean style

People in Trinidad, Guyana and Jamaica (& probably elsewhere in the region, I think Cuba has a very vibrant Chinese style cuisine native to the country) have some "Chiny" dishes, including chow mein which contains noodles. Unfortunately there is no mention in this article. --Mista-X 01:07, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Chow mein vs Lo mein

There seems to be a huge discrepancy here. I'm a Chinese American, and the food that I know as "chow mein" is actually the food described in the lo mein article. I'd never even heard of lo mein until I ordered chow mein at a restaurant, got the food described on this article, and ended up in a long discussion with my friends about what in the hell lo mein is and how is it different from chow mein and what the hell is this crap that the waiter just brought me?

It seems that the terminology "chow mein" and "lo mein" as described in these articles mainly applies to westernized Chinese restaurants. I think we need to look up what these dishes are in the original Chinese and add that to these articles. Viltris (talk) 06:25, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah, and for those of you who claim that "chow mein" is a dish with no noodles... The next time you order "chow mein", if you didn't get noodles with it, then you just got cheated. 'Cause "chow mein" is Chinese for "fried noodles". And if you ordered "chow mein" and didn't get noodles, then you didn't get what you ordered. (Same if it's not fried, although it's a lot harder to demonstrate that something is not fried than it is to demonstrate that it has no noodles.) Viltris (talk) 06:34, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

K, after some really brief google searching, I've found a source which explains it: http://chinesefood.about.com/od/chinesedishfaqs/f/lomeinchowmein.htm . Basically, chow mein is stirfried noodles, generally mixed with meats and vegetables in the wok (note that noodles are boiled before they're fried), whereas lo mein noodles generally aren't fried at all and the lo mein dish generally has a thicker sauce.

Also, it should be noted that chow mein and lo mein don't necessarily use different types of noodles. The article also debunks the myth that chow mein is a type of crispy thin noodles.

I am inclined to believe this article as this is consistent with both my knowledge of the Chinese language and my personal experiences of eating authentic chow mein. I just hope no one denies the accuracy of the source just because the author appears to be not Chinese.

I am currently in the process of adding the source's knowledge to the articles Chow mein and Lo mein. Viltris (talk) 06:48, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Having recently moved from the US West Coast to the US East Coast, this is pretty accurate: on the West Coast, Chow Mein at most restaurants has soft noodles (probably lightly fried) all mixed in with the vegies and meat while on the East Coast, the chow mein is mostly thin sauce with a packet of crispy fried noodles on the side. I believe that this is critical information to add to the article! Also, looking at various restaurants around here (the East Coast) lo mein refers to what on the West Coast is "chow mein". --21:12, 7 May 2009 (UTC)Jwlyon1 (talk)

Taishan?

There is an unsourced claim in the article that the romanization "chow mein" is based on Taishan dialect (which, strangely enough, the article also claims is pronounced as "meing"). I find this highly questionable since "mein" is a reasonably accurate romanization of the standard Mandarin pronunciation. If nobody cares to provide a source I will probably remove this on my next pass. Ham Pastrami (talk) 01:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I was under the impression that "chow mein" was based on the Cantonese word for the food, as most names of Chinese foods in America come from Cantonese.Viltris (talk) 20:03, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

The Mandarin word ("mian") would more probably be romanized as "myan" into English; I find it unlikely that it came from Mandarin, though it might possibly approximate Cantonese. C'valyi d'Jade (talk) 11:52, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

What the hell is "Hong-Kong style chow mein"?

The reference that's cited mentions absolutely nothing about Hong-Kong style chow mein. I'm reverting that sentence to the sentence that was used when the reference was first put up there: "Authentic chow mein is generally made of soft noodles, whereas chow mein in Westernized Chinese Cuisine may also be made from thin crispy noodles." This is, in fact, supported by the cited reference. Viltris (talk) 06:55, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Lol calm down dear. I had some HK style Beef Chow Mein from the Take away in Fawcett Road in Portsmouth UK. It has stir fried noodles that are soft still and not overly crispy, soy and oyster sauce to stain them brown and is fried in Sesame Oil. It's served with lightly fried Bean Sprouts. Happy?--86.15.83.152 (talk) 22:16, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I was born and raised in Rhode Island, USA and had chow mein many, many times. There and in neighboring Massachusetts, USA, chow mein was always made with short, crunchy noodles and a brown sauce. This would be the "east-coast" or Hong Kong style mentioned by others. The dish with soft, spaghetti-like noodles flavored with soy sauce was called lo mein.

I now live here in the American Midwest and while the sauce used is a light white wine-based sauce, chow mein is still made with the same short, crunchy noodles. The dish made with the soft noodles is still called lo mein here.

Now I hardly think that "About.com" is a rock-solid definitive source. But, if you took a second to look, this article here already has citations provided by others that contradict your point. I will add some others that I found in a very brief search of my own.4.254.87.107 (talk) 19:30, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

California or west coast post 1965 immigrant community chow mein

On the west coast of the USA, there are different types of Chinese American restaurants. One type sells primarily to non-Chinese; Panda Express is this type. Another type sells primarily to the ethnic Chinese community and generally exists in the Chinatowns (alongside the other type). A third type is a hybrid Chinese Korean food. There are also some Vietnamese-style Chinese dishes available at Vietnamese restaurants. Additionally, there are many "Thai" restaurants that seem to be hybrids of ethnic Chinese Thai and Thai food.

Of the restaurants that target ethnic Chinese, there are variations based on country of origin, with the big groupings being people from Hong Kong, people from Taiwan, and people from mainland China. There are also ethnic Chinese from the Philippines, Japan, Indonesia, Latin America, and Europe, but I don't think they have their own restaurants (yet).

Chow mein differs based on the type of restaurant. AFAIK none seem to conform to the "east coast" definitions. (I may be wrong - there are some kosher Chinese restaurants that may use the east coast definitions, though among the kosher ones, there seem to be some differences, with some focusing more on staying up to date, while others try to hang onto the past.)

Anyway, none of these places have a chow mein that lacks noodles. They all have noodles.

The most common form is the yellow noodle stir fried with vegetables and meat. There is no gravy. This is similar to Filipino pancit, or Japanese yakisoba. You can get this at fast-food Chinese shops. I've heard this referrered to as "Cantonese chow mein" to differentiate from "Hong Kong chow mein" describe below.

Within the suburban Chinese American communities like Monterey Park, the more popular chow mein is "Hong Kong style chow mein", which is a "steamed", thin egg noodle that's deep fried so it's a tangled mass, with the outside of the mass crisp, and the inside is soft and pliable. On top of that is a mixture of stir fried vegetables and meat in a clear gravy. The "chow mein" refers to the fried noodles. (I've also had this dish in LA and SF Chinatowns.)

There are some restaurants that have vegetables and meat in a gravy served atop a bed of short, crisp, fried noodles. These are the kind of noodles you can get in a can, branded "La Choy" or "Chun King". They don't seem to exist in the Chinese communities, however. (I'm thinking of Canton City in Montebello, but have had this in other areas without a Chinese community.)

In addition to these varieties, at the market, there are packages of chow mein from Central America. These are a thin egg noodle stir fried with meat and vegetables. There's also a market for Japanese style chow mein, which is similar to pancit above, but with a slightly different noodle from Nanka Seimen.

There is almost nothing called "lo mein" that resembles chow mein. In the Chinese American communities, ordering lo mein will get you one of two kinds of noodle, with a bowl of strong broth. To eat it, you either sprinkle the broth onto the noodles, or dip the noodles into the broth. The noodles are either boiled and topped with some meat or vegetable, or lightly stir fried with the meat and vegetables. In both types, the noodles are a thin egg noodle called "won ton noodles".

However, if you ask for won ton noodles, they'll probably bring you noodles in a broth, similar to ramen. Ramen is a Japanese noodle that's supposed to be Chinese "la mian"... which is probably "lo mein". Mein means noodle.

I'm not saying anyone here is wrong. The restaurants are probably adapting to the local tastes. I'm just saying that, today and for around the past 20 years, the terms "chow mein" and "lo mein" have meant something different to people dining in the new immigrant communities on the west coast.JOHN 99.34.59.212 (talk) 04:22, 31 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.34.59.212 (talk) 04:18, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

La Choy Chow Mein?

For decades, in the US the La Choy Chow Mein noodles were a snack or garnish. The La Choy company still calls them Chow Mein but adds "crispy noodles" to their product description. Given the long history of these in America, they deserve some mention. Today, more people in US actually have the stir fried variety. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.181.112.146 (talk) 05:07, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Really now. Honestly trying to figure out what most people have might be rather difficult, if you wanted to be accurate.RyanChamberlyn (talk) 21:57, 10 December 2012 (UTC)