Talk:Chorus line

More citations needed

Note all contributors: This article is overflowing with names with no verification they really "started out dancing in chorus lines", the actual claim we're making by including a name. I don't want to reduce the article to uselessness by removing all the names with no reference, so I'm giving this heads-up instead. CapnZapp (talk) 17:39, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

• CapnZapp I agree with you. Unless the contributor can provide a source or the subject's link states it in their bio; it must be removed. Otherwise, this article is nothing but an overweight list of "citation for verification". I came here to see where the first "kick line" originated after seeing it in Chorus Line and Hello Dolly. Of course, nothing even remotely close to that mentioned. Not a very informative article; and the list only makes it less so. Start removing. (I would do away with the entire section IMHO) Maineartists (talk) 18:09, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

@CapnZapp I am going in and doing a hard scrub of this section. Doing an initial verification, most of these names do not belong ie Patricia Heaton "Heaton made her first Broadway appearance in the chorus of Don't Get God Started". Unless the article specifically backs the claim that the BLP started out in a traditional Chorus Line, or there is an online source that can be cited here, I will remove the name. Maineartists (talk) 10:49, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

I look forward to your scrubbing. CapnZapp (talk) 14:43, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@CapnZapp I am starting my research on the names listed in the section. Might you weigh in on this distinction: some of the names are associated with being a "Chorus Girl" only; not starting out dancing in a "Chorus Line". To me, there is a difference; but I think I'd better get a consensus as to what this article is really about. A Chorus Line dancer "sometimes" sings. But that does not mean a girl who sings in the chorus is necessarily dancing in a "chorus line". Tallulah Bankead for instance was a chorus girl, but she never got her start dancing in a chorus line like Constance Bennett, Louise Alexander, June Allyson or Carroll Baker. I think if this article opens the door to anyone who sings in the chorus of a show, it will be pandemonium. Maineartists (talk) 00:35, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Hmm. If you can support "chorus girl" as something distinct from A chorus girl or chorine is a performer in a chorus line (i.e. the chorus of a theatrical production) (our article's definition) then you should consider splitting the articles (or at the very least exclude "chorus girls" from inclusion here). But if this distinction isn't really upheld by sources, you should probably not worry about it either.

Myself I'm no expert but I think inclusion here should be reserved for "notable performers (i.e. people with wiki articles) who started their careers as chorines". Specifically this does not include "mere" singers. Obviously many actresses on this page could sing. If they weren't chorines, though, they should be mentioned someplace other than here.

Or maybe I'm misinterpreting the distinction you're trying to make. I did read Tallulah Bankead's wiki article but that wasn't very clarifying: I could not find what performance the editor that added her name had in mind when including her here. Could it be a mix-up - she appears to have played a chorus girl in at least one play (The Gold Diggers 1926) CapnZapp (talk) 08:00, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

@CapnZapp The entire lead is just one big back-and-forth mish-mash that constantly states one thing and then slips in another whole category which confuses the original statement, thus broadening the arena:

• "A chorus line is a large group of dancers who together perform synchronized routines" (Sometimes, singing is also performed).
• "Chorus line dancers in Broadway musicals and revues have been referred to by slang terms such as ponies, gypsies and twirlies." (A chorus girl or chorine is a performer in a chorus line i.e. the chorus of a theatrical production).
• "While synchronized dancing indicative of a chorus line (often composed of chorus girls) was vogue during the first half of the 20th century, modern theatre uses the terms "ensemble" or "chorus" to indicate all supporting players in a stage production. These supporting players often also play minor characters, move set pieces, and support the production in other unique ways."

The first two sentences state a specific role having to do with dancing, but then slip in the singing / chorus element. By the third line, it's a free-for-all of anyone not playing a lead. Practically anyone who has started in musical theatre can be defined and listed in this article under these terms. How does this article go from "A chorus line is a large group of dancers who together perform synchronized routines" to: "all supporting players in a stage production. These supporting players often also play minor characters, move set pieces, and support the production in other unique ways"?

WP already has Ensemble (musical theatre) which specifically details the definition and states where it descended: "The modern musical chorus descends from the chorus line. The chorus line was typically composed of women (dubbed chorus girls or chorines) performing synchronized dances in a line." Once again: dancing. This article should scale back and streamline its distinction to separate the understanding. Regardless, I am going to trim the section to only notable performers with WP articles who started their careers in a Chorus line as a dancer; and preface the section as such. Tallulah will not make the cut. Maineartists (talk) 09:45, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

I must confess I don't see the problem you're seeing. The dictionary definition of "Chorus line" is "a group of performers who dance (and sometimes sing) together in musicals and other stage performances, often in a line". Our table is a non-exhaustive list of people that fitted this bill at one stage of their careers. Since you don't usually become notable by staying a chorus girl, in practice it is a list of people starting out as chorus girls in their early careers. The three points you highlight aren't incompatible to me. The first establishes the definition. The second discusses slang terms and provides (for some reason) a second attempt at defining the group. The third distinguishes the term from modern usage - theater workers and ensemble players are not included in our article, which is a useful distinction to make. Having separate articles for old style chorus girls and modern ensemble players makes sense to me, since they're a world apart in almost every context, even though the job pretty much boils down to the same thing. What matters is what you were called. In 1920 you were a chorus girl. In 2020 you would have been called a dancer, an actor, an entertainer or perhaps theater worker. I believe the reason we have this list is because back then it was much more of a noteworthy social climb to go from chorine to Hollywood star actress or whatever lofty positions the women on our list did reach. Today, I don't think anyone cares whether you got your start specifically as part of an ensemble or not. That said, scrub away! CapnZapp (talk) 15:16, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Modern additions

What is your rationale for adding this seemingly random collection of actresses, Wonderboy?

If you do not engage in discussion, I am afraid your additions won't stand. CapnZapp (talk) 08:14, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

My rational is simply this. I have an interest in dance and when I came across this page, I was aware of a lot of other notable people that had started their own careers as dancers in chorus line. The names I added were all cited orally by the people themselves in various interviews as well as inform I found through blogs, IMDb, and various others sources. So many other names were listed without citation and I thought it would be wonderful to add the names I did for I knew it was all truth from what I had found. Now, I'm begin threatened with an edit war and blockage, and the social anxiety from my autism is now leaving me in a heap of hot mess and I feel so horrible about myself when I knew I was including information that I knew in my heart was true and now I can't have it on here like I wanted others to enjoy. I have such few pleasures in life and I thought I could contribute. I'm just going to up and leave since I have failed without even getting myself off the ground on here. It's a shame for I was so proud and excited for those findings and I really hoped they would have lasted for many a year. That's all @CapnZapp. I wish I could have these back on there but people hate me so much now and I can't stand it. Autistic Wonderboy 2023 (talk) 03:12, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Removed all non-chorus line names

Because the article referenced other forms of theatrical terms not associated with a traditional dancing chorus line, names were included that did not fit the definition. These names were associated with having started out cast as an actual "chorus girl" in a film, a solo dancer in a night club or venue, part of a present day ensemble of a Broadway chorus (having nothing to do with a chorus line), etc. The names that are included now started their careers dancing in an actual "chorus line" as defined in this article. Either their articles states this or they are listed in other WP articles such as Ziegfeld girls, Goldwyn Girls, Gaiety Girls. Subsequently, terms and content have been moved from the lede into the article for better description, and misleading content / terms that are covered in other WP articles have been removed such as Ensemble cast (which is associated with cinema and television) which has lead to the inclusion of performer names that should not be included in this article. Maineartists (talk) 16:33, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Just to note: Those terms likely weren't intended to be misleading. The purpose of mentioning theater workers or ensemble players likely was to explain that these are not included in the scope of the article. CapnZapp (talk) 08:06, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

As for the remaining names - ideally we should source each entry (hopefully simply by copying a reference from the supporting wiki article; person or dancing company) CapnZapp (talk) 08:08, 14 May 2023 (UTC)