Talk:Chinese gods and immortals

Make this article a list?

Since much of the present article is made up of lists, I propose to change the whole article to list. I'll check back to see if anyone objects. ch (talk) 04:54, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Oppose, though it should just be moved to Chinese gods and its focus tightened. Immortals should be dealt with at Chinese immortals. — LlywelynII 08:58, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Well, that's interesting

This footnote

{{refn|group=note|name=king-emperor-shaman-axis|The characters [[:wiktionary:玉|''yu'' 玉]] (jade), [[:wiktionary:皇|''huang'' 皇]] (emperor, sovereign, august), [[:wiktionary:王|''wang'' 王]] (king), as well as others pertaining to the same semantic field, have a common denominator in the concept of [[:wiktionary:工|''gong'' 工]] (work, art, craft, artisan, bladed weapon, square and compass; [[gnomon]], "interpreter") and ''[[wu (shaman)|wu]]'' 巫 (shaman, medium)<ref>Mark Lewis. ''Writing and Authority in Early China''. SUNY Press, 1999. {{ISBN|0791441148}}. [https://books.google.com/books?id=8k4xn8CyHAQC&printsec=frontcover pp. 205-206].</ref> in its archaic form [[File:巫-bronze.svg|15px]], with the same meaning of [[:wiktionary:卍|''wan'' 卍]] (''[[swastika]]'', ten thousand things, all being, universe).<ref>Didier, 2009. Vol. III, p. 268</ref> The character ''dì'' 帝 is rendered as "deity" or "emperor" and describes a divine principle that exerts a fatherly dominance over what it produces.<ref name="Lu, Gong. 2014. p. 64">Lu, Gong. 2014. p. 64</ref> A king is a man or an entity who is able to merge himself with the ''[[axis mundi]]'', the [[Absolute (philosophy)|centre of the universe]], bringing its order into reality. The ancient kings or emperors of the Chinese civilisation were shamans or priests, that is to say mediators of the divine rule.<ref>Joseph Needham. ''[[Science and Civilisation in China]]''. Vol. III. p. 23</ref> The same Western terms "king" and "emperor" traditionally meant an entity capable to embody the divine rule: [[:wiktionary:king|''king'']] etymologically means "gnomon", "generator", while [[:wiktionary:emperor|''emperor'']] means "interpreter", "one who makes from within".}}

may have some truth somewhere in it (early kings definitely had priestly functions, e.g.) but the parts about the etymology of "king" and "emperor" are complete horsepuckey, removing the credibility for the rest. Someone needs to go back through its sources and see how much accurate info should be restored to the article and how much is I-just-got-this-awesome-book-on-theosophy rubbish. — LlywelynII 08:58, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

An obscure god I can't find on this list

Dunno if he deserves a mention or nah, but on this blog, seemingly run by an actual Taoist, there's mention of a god named Juling Shen who I can only find in lists of characters in Journey to the West. He seems to be an actual god who figures in the religion, but finding information on him is like pulling teeth; and good luck finding any images. The only notable western appearance he makes is in an upcoming mobile game called Smite Blitz, and it's made by Hi-Rez, a publisher with no regard for mythological accuracy (or anything, really), so that's hardly a notable source. Still, I just wanted to throw his name in the ring to see if any Taoists or Chinese-speakers can help clear the air on who he is and whether he's really noteworthy at all and whether the page I linked has its facts straight. (EDIT: There seems to be an article about him here, but it's only on the Chinese version of the site. It reiterates some of the information in the link I already provided, and it also goes into more detail on what exactly he does in Journey to the West.) Please stop. (talk) 22:06, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Somehow missed this last time

In Chinese language there is a terminological distinction between {{lang|zh|神}} ''shén'', {{lang|zh|帝}} ''dì'' and {{lang|zh|仙}} ''[[xian (Taoism)|xiān]]''. Although the usage of the former two is sometimes blurred, it corresponds to the distinction in Western cultures between "god" and "deity", Latin ''[[genius (mythology)|genius]]'' (meaning a generative principle, "spirit") and ''[[deus]]'' or 'Deva' (Sanskrit) and ''divus''; ''dì'', sometimes translated as "[[:wiktionary:thearch|thearch]]", implies a manifested or incarnate "godly" power.{{refn|group=note|The term "thearch" is from Greek ''theos'' ("deity"), with ''[[arche]]'' ("principle", "origin"), thus meaning "divine principle", "divine origin". In sinology it has been used to designate the incarnated gods who, according to Chinese tradition, sustain the world order and originated China. It is one of the alternating translations of {{lang|zh|帝}} ''dì'', together with "emperor" and "god".{{sfnb|Pregadio|2013|p=504, vol. 1, A-L|ps=: "Each sector of heaven (the four points of the compass and the center) was personified by a ''di'' {{lang|zh|帝}} (a term which indicates not only an emperor but also an ancestral "thearch" and "god")".}}}}{{sfnb|Medhurst|1847|p=260}} It is etymologically and figuratively analogous to the concept of ''di'' as the base of a fruit, which falls and produces other fruits. This analogy is attested in the ''[[Shuowen Jiezi]]'' explaining "deity" as "what faces the base of a melon fruit".{{sfnb|Zhao|2012|p=51}} The latter term {{lang|zh|仙}} ''xiān'' unambiguously means a man who has reached immortality, similarly to the Western idea of "[[hero]]".{{sfnb|Lü|Gong|2014|p=63}}

There is no distinction in Western cultures between lower-case god and deity; "the former two" isn't how those words are used; shen are entirely distinct from genii; when divus is a noun (which it usually isn't), it isn't distinct from Sanskrit deva; the translation of di as thearch isn't a meaningful distinction but a modern kludge to get around how mundane 'emperor' sounds to people in translation; it's useful for orientalizing the Yellow Emperor as a concept but isn't at all the term for talking about the actually divine supreme Di that this section should be discussing; fruit don't have bases, let alone ones etymologically linked to Chinese words for god-emperors, and the Shuowen has absolutely nothing related to melons involved with this character; xian isn't unambiguous about anything, down to the fact it's literally just mountain-guy, but it certainly has no relation to the Western idea of a hero, which in its (now almost unknown) powerful dead Greek guy sense is something like the complete inverse of a Taoist immortal.

There should be a discussion of terms early in the article and I hate the idea of razing content, especially sourced content, but this is colorless green ideas dream furiously, theological edition. It is complete and utter nonsense. For this section, we need to start over again. Rebuild from the ground up, using clear English to express clear ideas. Differentiate the different Chinese terms for actual gods, including 祇, 天, 上帝, and the rest. It may be worthwhile to distinguish the Chinese terms from the similar looking but separately developed Japanese ones. It will not be worthwhile to try to explain ancient Chinese theology by comparing Sanskrit and Latin concepts of numinousness.

Use better sources and use them better. (The guy writing the "god melon" madlibs actually is a respectable Chinese scholar; I can only imagine the translator for SUNY was completely inept to have mangled the Shuowen section so badly.) — LlywelynII 16:32, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

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