Talk:Chief Tahachee

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Chief Tahachee

I have seen this actor in many old westerns (Seminole) is one picture and a lot of Randolph Scott movies. Chief Tahachee has a great bio on NativeCelebs and also at IMDb. Great to see this Cherokee getting credit after so many years of anonymity.

Jacob Weiss

Real name?

On imdb.com, it says "Sometimes Credited As: J.D.T. Cypert / Jeff D. T. Cypert / Jeff Davis Tahchee Cypert". I am assuming that the last one was his actual name. I added his real name the same way as in Jack Benny. There are other ways of doing this, as in John Wayne, his real name is not mentioned until after the intro. --rogerd 16:57, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For an example of another way of handling stage names, see Rags Ragland --rogerd 17:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Notability

This article (and much of what other can be found on the web about this person) seems to be an effort to promote someone to notability who may not actually have much. In forty years of screen credits as compiled by the American Film Institute Catalog of Motion Pictures Produced in the United States, there is not one single verified credit for this person under any of the variations on his name. Clearly he was someone who had an interesting life, but he was also clearly an extra in the "400" movies he supposedly appeared in. In 45 years of film history research and writing, I had never encountered his name until Wikipedia, and cannot find anything else listing him anywhere (outside of the aforementioned website articles which all suspiciously read as if created by the same person). Although it is my opinion that Chief Tahachee fails to meet WP's notability requirements, I am not opposed to the article remaining in place. But the grandiosity of the article and of mentions of him in other articles needs to be addressed and toned down. Some articles on specific films, such as Rancho Notorious, have had remarks about his "memorable" performances placed in them, despite the fact that I know of no one who could pick him out of the crowd of faces he may or may not inhabit in those films. Consensus? Monkeyzpop (talk) 15:42, 13 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Notability of subject

Request for Comment tag removed

Is the subject notable by WP standards?

I think that the issue of notability in this case is clouded by the poor treatment Native Americans received at the hand of the film industry. If notability is defined by credits on studio films, then no, Chief Tahachee cannot be considered notable. But Wikipedia may need to make a nod to true democracy and be willing to include figures who have made an impact without popularly-recorded credit. I realize that this opens the encyclopedia to multitudinous inclusions of folks such as someone that appears exclusively on a single Alabama historical marker; however, I have recently watched biographies of people who I consider massively influential in the punk music scene get deleted by people without exposure to the music. I would hate for such to continue.Delvebelow (talk) 00:38, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article does seem rather wordy, though, I do admit.Delvebelow (talk) 00:40, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

By this logic, if I understand you correctly, any Native American, even those with no notability whatsoever, could and should be included in Wikipedia in order to make up for slights to the race. I'm quite in agreement with you as to the importance of Indians being given greater credit and note for their achievements -- I'm Cherokee myself. But there must be achievements of note, not simply being alive in the background of shots in various movies. Extras, as a general rule, do not rise to the level of notability unless they climb out of the ranks of extras and become stars, as John Wayne and Randolph Scott did. Someone whose entire career never even got him listed in the extended credits listed in the American Film Institute's credits catalogs seems to me notably unnotable. WP normally does not include even many actors with lots of on-screen credits and speaking roles, UNLESS there's something more notable than that mere fact. To include someone with LESS notability simply because he's a Cherokee suggests to me that everyone in my family gets to be in WP, too. I simply don't see how Chief Tahachee made any impact such as you suggest. I'd be interested in your response, as well as that of others. Thank you. Monkeyzpop (talk) 01:03, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note that it appears that big chunks of this article are a cut and paste from the imdb mini-bio: [1] (copyvio). Being an extra in 400 films and an author, he is notable enough for an article, though it appears to need some significant copyediting and citations to books, etc. As an aside, is there an article within wikipedia that discusses to apparent practice of not crediting Native American extras? thanks and regards, --guyzero | talk 20:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not crediting Native American extras has nothing to do with their being Native American. It has to do with the fact that extras are NEVER credited. As to being worthy of an article because of being an extra in 400 films, that would open up the floodgates to hundreds of thousands of articles about people who did nothing more than stand in the background or walk across a street in the distance. If verified, his being an author is more reason for an article than his being an extra, about which there is, by definition, nothing notable in and of itself. Monkeyzpop (talk) 21:00, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Content removed from article

I removed the following content from the article due to the concerns expressed, above. This information would be great in the article if a) it is properly sourced -- this is especially true of information that intersects other people due to WP:BLP and b) reworded such to not be copyvio from Chief Tahachee's mini-bio at IMDB. regards, --guyzero | talk 02:37, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Through his friends, silent film actors Ben Turpin (a relative of his first wife) and Ramon Navarro, Chief Tahachee obtained the roles of a henchman in A Small Town Idol, and Gaucho Don Ruiz in the The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, both produced in 1921.
Though Chief Tahachee was in motion pictures starting in the 1920s, his career did not take off until his chance meeting with film director Rollin S. Sturgeon, who cast Chief Tahachee in a bit part as a cowboy in North of the Rio Grande in 1922, a film starring Jack Holt and BeBe Daniels. This part was given to him by chance, as the Chief was picked from a crowd of fans, extras, actors and directors loitering around the film location in Northern California (Bishop and Lone Pine) where North of the Rio Grande was being shot. Mr. Sturgeon groomed Chief Tahachee and from that point, parts were easier to come by as a result of the Chief's new friendship. Mr. Sturgeon is also credited with convincing the young Cherokee actor to add Chief to his name for publicity purposes, which Tahachee did reluctantly. The Chief was eventually given the honorary title of Chief to recognize his activism and support of many American Indian causes. When he was asked about his title, the Chief used to tell people, "Didn't you know everyone is a Chief in Hollywood? It's a land of make believe!"
Unlike many of his counterparts (Chief Yowlatchie and Chief John Big Tree), Chief Tahachee did not limit himself to American Indian roles during his 40-year career. His friend and fellow American Indian actor Charles Stevens (grandson of Geronimo) taught him not to typecast himself, and as a result of this advice Chief Tahachee portrayed every form and manner of American Indian. But he also portrayed gangsters, thugs, henchman, cowboys, Mexicans, Anglos, Hindus, soldiers, policemen, sheriffs, deputies, townsman, barflies, Mongols, sailors, and even Chinese. Chief Tahachee would not turn down a role, no matter how insignificant it seemed.
Chief Tahachee's close friends, actors and various associates in the film industry were Carl "Cherokee" Matthews, Bill Hazlett, Jay Silverheels, Chief Yowlatchie, Nipo T. Strongheart, Chief John Big Tree, Owen "Jack" Randall, Buck Jones, Charles Stevens and Charles Brunner (also known as Chief Rolling Cloud). Chief Tahachee also authored four books, the most successful being Poems of Dreams.

added sourced biographical data

I think this article could be noteworthy but it desperately needs some outside sources. I added some biographical detail from a source, but better sources are needed as well. Cleanemupnowboys (talk) 22:20, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Added specific books. There are discrepancies as to when Poems of Dreams was published. Amazon gives the date as 1942, the first source cited gives it as 1940, and the copyright renewal gives the earlier copyright date of 1945. I went with the Amazon source because it seemed the most reliable and the copyright date may be just that, a copyright and not the original publication date. Cleanemupnowboys (talk) 22:38, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Oddly, the Library of Congress link I entered some days ago is now returning an error, so I'm glad you found other sources. cheers, --guyzero | talk 22:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I checked that too and couldn't get it to work. Do you know which publication date is correct for Poems of Dreams? After reading the movie website it seems there's lots of good information on Chief T -- where did they get their info? Even an old newspaper archive would be great. Cleanemupnowboys (talk) 23:16, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The dates you provided look OK. I've seen the identical information on Project Gutenberg (which derived it from Library of Congress notices of expiring copyright, I believe.) By the movie site, do you mean imdb? The bio text there was identical to the original article here. As noted in the bio text on imdb, it was supplied (or supplemented) by Chief Tahachee's son. It will be challenging to find online newspaper articles, etc. from this time period. I live in Los Angeles and will try to do a bit of local library searching later this year. I've moved your links into ref tags. Thanks again! --guyzero | talk 23:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That would be great to check the local papers. After the research I do think he's notable and hope that we can find sources for the other material in the IMDB site. Also, thanks for fixing the references. I always forget how to do them. Cleanemupnowboys (talk) 00:54, 1 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

RFC followup

Has the concern about notability been settled? Can the tag be removed, or are you still looking for comments? Pairadox (talk) 11:09, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think we've determined he's notable. Now we just need to find old newspaper articles and other references. Thanks. Cleanemupnowboys (talk) 13:50, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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