Talk:Chester Carlson/Archives/2015

Copy edit / expansion

I'm starting to do a copy edit on the article, with a main aim of fleshing it out considerably. I've got the following reference works to mine:

• Owen, David (2004). Copies in Secods: Chester Carlson and the birth of the Xerox machine. New York: Simon & Schuster. ISBN 0-7432-5118-0.
• McKelvey, Blake (1993). Rochester on the Genesee: the growth of a city (2nd ed.). Syracuse, New York: Syracuse University Press. ISBN 0-8156-2596-0.
• Kearns, David T.; Nadler, David A. (1992). Prophets in the Dark: How Xerox reinvented itself and beat back the Japanese. HarperCollins. ISBN 0-88730-564-4.

Disclosure: I was a contract employee working at Xerox for one year in the mid-1990s. Macwhiz (talk) 22:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm about two-thirds done revamping the article. I've also got a message in to the University of Rochester's Carlson Library to see if they have any usable photographs for the article. Macwhiz (talk) 01:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Completed my rewrite. I'm still waiting to hear back on finding some other photographs of Chester. // Macwhiz (talk) 22:11, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I hope to have news on additional photographs soon. I have reason to hope good news is coming. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 01:02, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Not acceptable source

I had to remove the sentence with source, which per BLP discussion on the page Eido Tai Shimano was not accepted as reliable and valid. Shimanoarchive is a personal webpage page done by people who have COI with Shimano. My understanding is the BLP rules have to be kept on entire WIKI, thus I also had to remove the as external link. I do not see any source with proof that Mr. Chester helped Rochester Zen Center, neither here nor on their page, certainly it was not in attached pdf, which is not acceptable. Though it my be true that he helped both places different sources need to be added to confirm this. Please, find such sources.Spt51 (talk) 19:12, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Your assertion makes no sense.

1. There is not, and cannot possibly be, any BLP issue with most of the text you removed, because none of the people mentioned are alive. The sole exception is the sentence "Mr. and Mrs. Carlson supplied extensive funding to Eido Shimano and his New York City based Zen Studies Society." You simply cannot have a violation of the Biographies of Living Persons standard when there are no living persons involved—not making the statements, not the object of the statements, not the source of the statements.
   • Chester Carlson, the subject of the article in question, died in 1968.
   • Dorris Carlson, Chester's wife, died in 1998.
   • Philip Kapleau died in 2004.
   • The Rochester Zen Center itself, being a "legal person" rather than a "natural person," is not subject to the BLP.
2. You say you don't find any evidence that Carlson helped Rochester Zen Center. Why, then, have you not deleted this statement in the Rochester Zen Center article: "When they arrived, he passed one on to his Rochester friends Chester Carlson (the inventor of xerography) and his wife Dorris. In March 1966, Mrs. Carlson invited Philip Kapleau to come to Rochester and work with her meditation group, and in June the Zen Meditation Center came into being with a membership of twenty-two."
3. You state that the referenced PDF, which is a copy of a letter sent by Dorris Carlson to the board of directors of the Rochester Zen Center regarding the use of funds she had donated to the Center, "certainly" does not include any proof that Carlson helped Rochester Zen Center. That's absurd; it is prima facie evidence of the amount of support the Carlsons provided.
4. Regardless of your feelings about any conflicts of interest those who run http://www.shimanoarchive.com may have with Eido Shimano, that does not mean that they have COI with the Rochester Zen Center or Philip Kapleau. It certainly does not mean that they have fabricated mail from a prominent philanthropist. There is no commentary in the letter; it is what it is. The site hosting it cannot imbue it with a conflict of interest.
5. The letter in question was taken from the archives at the University of Hawai'i at Mānoa. Per WP:RS, a source that has been "vetted by the scholarly community" is acceptable. I submit that inclusion in the archives of a major University's library comprises scholarly attention, making the letter a reliable source in and of itself.
6. Even if the letter weren't in a University archive, even if it was republished on a web site you find questionable, and even if it did discuss a living person, the BLP policy does permit self-published sources in certain circumstances.
7. Even if all of the above were not true, the BLP rules you're referring to only apply to contentious statements about living persons. Are you seriously saying that the statement that the Carlsons helped form RZC and provided extensive funding for it is in some way contentious, that there is a reasonable basis to believe that is an untrue statement that could harm someone?
8. Finally, I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why you deleted the statements you did, but then left in the statement most directly backed by the letter, that Dorris regretted her contributions and asked the Center to stop using the Carlson name. Of all the statements even tangentially related to Shimano, I would think that one would be the most contentious, yet it was the only one you didn't see fit to elide. I simply don't understand your reasoning on that decision.

Besides, if you read the letter, and grant it for the moment the benefit of the doubt as to its provenance, it's not likely that Rochester Zen Center would mention the Carlsons in their own material, since they were instructed not to do so by someone with rather a lot of money—the sort of person who would likely have caused RZC no end of legal trouble if their name were used without permission.

I am restoring the statement about the Carlson's involvement with the Rochester Zen Center, with several additional citations. My intent is to restore the shimanoarchive.com source, unless you can show me how it (a) falls under the BLP, (b) is controversial, and (c) is in this circumstance an unacceptable source.

// ⌘macwhiz (talk) 01:54, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

It is a good idea to restore information you did, and thank you. My objection was not about information, which I know was true but about the source: shimanoarchive. Because of controversy concerning living person Eido Tai Shimano Roshi there has been very long debate about sources some used to defame him and inserting contentious information in his page. It was decided not by me, but by many administrators on several boards BLPN and RSN that shimanoarchive.com is not reliable source, and it was not allowed to be used in that page. I do not want to go to details, but please look at the discussion in page Eido Tai Shimano. The people inserted the same site in several other pages in Wikipedia too. I truly believe it should not be included anywhere because it contains other materials of contentious nature concerning living person - Eido Shimano. If you read discussions on WK:RSN all the time administrators point out that if source rejected it cannot be used anywhere in Wikipedia. Slp1 and Off2riorob are senior administrators who were involved in the page, and I suggest to contact them about this, if you have an objection to my action. I would suggest not to include shimnaorchive. You were able to find better citations. Thank you.Spt51 (talk) 22:39, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

By the way, I just read the expanded section about donations to RZC and Dai Bosatsu with new citations. To me it looks much better and with more details and it has a good feel to it. Thank you very much! After reading it I feel even stronger that adding shimnaoarchive with it's controversial content will not be appropriate.Spt51 (talk) 00:10, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Question: In section Legacy, which I am not sure was written by you, again shimanoarchive is used as citation for a very "questionable" to me comment about living person. This is a comment by Doris and what does this have to do with Chester Carlson legacy? As far as I know, still Chester Carlson's name is chanted twice a month in Dai Bosatsu not only by Shimano, but by many others who feel grateful and he most likely appreciates this very much, contrary to what Doris said. Considering the questionable source, rejected as valid at RSN, do you think the comment and source should be included here? I don't think so... It is not fair to Chester Carlson himself and to all those who chant his name...Spt51 (talk) 01:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Following the discussion on WP:BLPN, I've removed the sentence in question, although I may restore it if I can find another source for it. The relevance is that Chester's contributions to Zen Buddhism—so great that his name is still chanted—occurred first and foremost because Dorris wished it. The idea that Dorris, managing her late husband's estate, supposedly found the ZSC's plan to sell the donated townhouse so objectionable as to want to disassociate herself so completely from it—after indirectly and directly contributing millions of dollars thereto—seems noteworthy to me. Without that information, the article makes it seem as if Chester and Dorris gave unrelenting, substantial endorsement of ZSC; if the truth is that Dorris later regretted the generosity, the article would misrepresent the truth if it did not mention that: people might believe that the Carlsons continued to endorse ZSC when they, in fact, did not.

I feel like I should point out: I have nothing against Zen Buddhism, and I'd never heard of Shimano, RZC, or ZSC before editing this article. My feeling is that Dorris seems to have had specific issues with a specific decision made by Shimano and ZSC's board; I'm not saying either party was "right" or casting aspersions on Shimano.

If there were enough material to justify an article on Dorris, I'd move it there. (I suspect that there might be enough information in Rochester-area libraries to justify such an article, but I no longer live there, so I can't easily go check.) // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 17:39, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure what is the truth about Doris objection to selling the townhouse, and if they sold it or not. I suspect, that as in any "world", in Zen world too there are many politics and disagreements in Zen organizations, and between Zen organizations. As you can see, the letter was a private letter of Dorris written to ZSS board. How come this letter ended up in private website created by former student of Shimano? The issue here is the reliability of source, especially when comment concerns actions of living person. If there are other acceptable sources to confirm feelings of Doris toward ZSS later in her life, you can revisit the issue and insert appropriate comment. Thank you for taking a time to look into the matter.Spt51 (talk) 15:15, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it's the reliability of the website holding a copy of the source. The letter itself comes from the Robert Baker Aitken Papers held by the University of Hawai'i at Mānoa. Aitken bequeathed the collection to the University. Other sites claim to have received copies of the collection with a signed letter from the Head of the Preservation Department of the library attesting to their authenticity. How did the Shimano Archive get it? By asking the University for a copy; they are not in the habit of withholding their research collections. Such research is, after all, the reason why one would donate one's papers to a university. So, although one can challenge the Shimano site's particular copy as being third-hand and thus potentially altered, in order to attack the authenticity of the letter itself one would have to refute a head librarian at a major university. (As others have pointed out, this doesn't address the issue of context, merely of provenance.) I would presume that the letter was provided to Aitken by Sylvan Busch, who was a friend of Aitken's.

I wonder if anyone in New York City could check property-tax records to see if the property in question (356 East 69th Street) was sold in that time period, and if so, to whom? // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 16:19, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

If you ask directly any ZSS board members they may tell you. Board's e-mail address is on their website. I can see there is New York Zendo Shobo-Ji, but it is located on 223East/67th street. Eido Shimano Roshi and his wife do not live in any of the two zendos. Maybe the property you are asking about is now Shimano's apartment? I remember reading somewhere that Carlsons bought the place for them. I doubt that this was sold, they still live in NYC in the same place behind the corner from New York Zendo.Spt51 (talk) 04:34, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Dorris' Buddhist name

What do you think about mentioning the fact that Doris Carlson's Buddhist name is also chanted in memorial services at Dai Bosatsu Zendo? This is not included in the book you cite. I remember seeing it in Newsletter published by ZSS after Doris's death. Perhaps old copies are still available in print or in electronic form. Dorris Carlson's formal Buddhist name is: Jiko-in Dorris Carlson Daishi and this name is chanted.Spt51 (talk) 16:59, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

If we can find a reliable source for it, and establish through a reliable source that it's relevant, sure. By "relevant" I'm thinking a source that establishes that her name is still chanted because of her philanthropy or what have you, something to establish the why as well as the what. I kind of got lucky finding that source for Chester. Zen was a huge part of Dorris' life, and that spilled over to Chester, so I think it has some relevance. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 22:12, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

I did check the website www.Daibosatsu.org and they do have Newsletters published in pdf form but only from a few recent years. The Newsletter I have in mind was published in 1998, the year Doris died, and I do remember it had her photo on front page. Eido Shimano wrote a commemorating article about her. Maybe the best would be that you e-mail directly to DBZ and ask for a copy, and explain that you are the main editor of Chester Carlson page in Wiki looking for source to include this in his biography. I am sure they will help. Or they can scan and send you pdf of this particular Newsletter. Their e-mail is office@daibosatsu.org Is this a good strategy? Spt51 (talk) 02:57, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I contacted Chester Carlson library, but they do not have the ZSS Newsletter from 1998. I am asking friends if they have it. Maybe I can get hold of it. If I get one what do I do with it? I am sure Dai Bosatsu monastery will have the copy in their library, but is this enough? I wonder if Wikipedia has a file, where such source could be uploaded in pdf form.Spt51 (talk) 22:32, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

It seems to me that as long as you reference it thouroughly, and it's something that another person could reasonably verify if they chose to do so, that's fine. It has to be verifiable; it doesn't have to be verifiable online, and I don't see where it has to be trivially verifiable.. If it's something where I could reasonably take your citation, go to the monastary, and ask them if I might see a copy, and they'd be able to do that for me, I'd call that verifiable. (More verifiable for me than many, as I don't live all that far from Dai Bosatsu.) I like the {{Cite}} templates, because if I fill in as many of the fields as I possibly can with the data I've got, I know I've cited it as well as I possibly could have. Of course, if the folks that created the newsletter are willing to post it online, that'd be even better... // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 01:02, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Hello macwhiz. The other day I did receive a copy of The Newsletter of the Zen Studies Society - Spring/Summer 1998 in mail from the friend, who earlier e-mailed me Dorris' Buddhist name. I do not see her Buddhist name included here, but there is an article by Eido Shimano: "My head to your feet: To Dorris Carlson" two and half pages long. The articles has the words of Dorris spoken to Shimano and his letters to her. There is a lot about generosity of Chester and Dorris and how they helped to establish two zendos of ZSS. In the exchange, at one point Shimano talks about donation of big additional funds to build country zendo, twice more than it was already given before. There is also a report from memorial service for Chester Carlson in the auditorium of Xerox corporation on September 26, 1968. Dorris asked Shimano to come to memorial service and give a short speech. Shimano wrote the article, as if he is speaking to Dorris directly. There is a paragraph, which may be worthy to summarize and include in Chester's Bio, if you feel it is appropriate. For the record I am copying it below. It is on page 4 of Newsletter.

"In September 1998, thirty years after your husband's departure, New York Zendo Shobo-ji will celebrate its 30 anniversary at Dai Bosatsu Zendo. You watched the birth and growth of these two Zendos, an upon their completing three decades, this January you walked to "the next room". It has been 22 years since DBZ was established, and literally thousands upon thousands of people from all over the world have come to sit. So I feel that I have met your expectations.

Both Zendos enshrine photograph of Chester and you, regarding you as Kaiki, which means principle benefactors in the establishment of the temples. Every year we commemorate Chester's day, September 19, and from now on we shall do likewise on your day, January 24. Not only for my generation, but for generation after generation this tradition will continue."

The article has two pictures, one of Dorris' alone and second, Chester and Dorris together. There is also second short article in the same Newsletter on page 5, announcement of 30 Anniversary celebrations in New York Zendo. This has a photo of young Shimano and Chester Carlson in front of New York Zendo Shobo-ji, September 15, 1968. So it was taken four days before Chester's death. I think Carriage House, mentioned in Bio, was transformed into New York Zendo Shobo-ji.

Please, if you feel it is appropriate, include this as a reference or additional text in the biography here. I did confirm with DBZ office by e-mail Dorris' Buddhist name, but since it is not included in this source, I am not sure if it is OK to include it next to Chester's one in his Bio. You are much more experienced editor in Wiki, so please decide. I think the carriage house you talk about is what is now New York Zendo Shobo-ji. Thank you, Spt51 (talk) 01:23, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I'll have a look when I have a chance; right at the moment, the Guild of Copy Editors' September backlog drive is monopolizing my time. We'd probably want better details for citation, though... // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 14:11, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I imagine that seeing entire article would help. A librarian friend told me the there are some pdf file sharing sites and that I could upload pdf copy of article there. What do you think?Spt51 (talk) 23:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Fix punctuation

Could somebody please fix the punctuation in this article to conform to the "logical punctuation" standard, as specified in the MoS?