Talk:Cherokee Nation/Archive 1

Archive 1

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February 2009

Since the polity known as the "Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma" is not all the Cherokee nor the only federally-recgonized tribe of Cherokee, and since the other two so-recognized tribes, the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians and the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians have thier own articles, so too should the CNO have its own article. For some reason, some editor effectively deleted whatever had been written in the previous article by redirecting this article to "Cherokee". For the time being I have merely copied from the "Cherokee" article that which is specific to the CNO, but I hope to expand it further soon. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 06:15, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I've been busy today, and there is now a substantial article on the "Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma", though I can't take credit for actually writing any of it as most of it is culled from other articles on Wikipedia, with some editting. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 23:03, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Name of the tribe

Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma → Cherokee Nation — I have received a plea that according to the tribe itself and the US Department of the Interior the name is simply "Cherokee Nation". This dispute should be discussed and sorted out. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 13:21, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

• I'm glad there is a separate page for this tribe, which is distinct from Cherokee people as ethnic and cultural group, but there seems to be increasing view on Wikipedia that the name of this tribe is the "Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma." Legally it is the Cherokee Nation, as the tribal seal reflects. I'm sure you editors are all familiar with the current administration's many discussions about how the name was never legally changed to include "of Oklahoma." Tribes do have the authority to chose their own names. The term might have been used in the past (and is popular among Cornsilk fans and other detractors of the tribe, to in some way lessen its scope), but that doesn't change the reality of the situation and Wikipedia is, in this case, giving misinformation. -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:31, 21 February 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi
• According to the federal government, the name of the tribe is "Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma". That's the name under which the tribal government files legal papers, and that is the name under which the BIA gives out benefits. Calling it simply "Cherokee Nation" would not only be misleading but a violation of NPOV as their name is in dispute as a result of the CNO's not having gotten their later constitution approved. Furthermore, using that title for the article or to refer to that tribal entity would be to casually ignore the objections of the Eastern Band and United Keetoowah Band that the CNO does not constitute the whole Cherokee Nation. . There is mention of the name dispute under "Constitutional change", so it's not as if that subject were being ignored. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 19:41, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
• The name was never legally changed, so it's not dependent on the 1999 Constitution. Here is a link to the most recent Federal Register: April 4, 2008 (Volume 73, Number 66): pages 18553-18557, which lists current tribal names. The Cherokee Nation is listed "Cherokee Nation, Oklahoma" not "Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma." Every tribe that does not list the state within which it is headquartered in its name is listed with a comma and the state after its name. That is, "Apache Tribe of Oklahoma" is simply listed as such because that is the name of the tribe. The Navajo Nation is listed as "Navajo Nation, Arizona, New Mexico & Utah," which is of course not the full time of the tribe. Nor is the name of the Ute Mountain Tribe of the Ute Mountain Reservation named "Ute Mountain Tribe of the Ute Mountain Reservation, Colorado, New Mexico & Utah." The states listed after the comma are just for further clarification.
• Calling a tribe by its current name is hardly a violation of NPOV. The Eastern Band of Cherokee Nation has no issues with the Cherokee Nation's name. Ironically, this statement is in the introduction of Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians Wikipedia page: "The Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians are not affiliated with the Cherokee Nation or the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians in Oklahoma, beyond cultural and historical ties." It's no secret that certain members of the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians do not care for the name of the Cherokee Nation, but they are not in a position to name someone else's tribe. Cheers, Uyvsdi (talk) 20:13, 21 February 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi
• Adding "of Oklahoma" to "Cherokee Nation" in that introduction you mention, with "in Oklahoma" in the same sentence is redundant (and the latter is necessary because most people reading the article would have no idea who the UKB are). Besides, it's not an official statement of the EBCI, so it's not really ironic. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 20:22, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
• The title "Cherokee Nation Of Oklahoma" is not only NOT used by the Cherokee Nation government, it is avoided.

I have talked with the Cherokee Nation Principal Chief Chad Smith about this issue. It is a political matter as far as the Cherokee Nation is concerned.

Wikipedia (or its editors) continuing to call the "Cherokee Nation" the "Cherokee Nation Of Oklahoma" is an error.

As an enrolled citizen of the "Cherokee Nation", I can tell you there is no "Cherokee Nation Of Oklahoma."

Phil Konstantin (talk) 13:26, 17 June 2009 (UTC) Phil Konstantin

The fact that you have "talked with the Cherokee Nation Principal Chief Chad Smith about this issue. It is a political matter as far as the Cherokee Nation is concerned." constitutes WP:OR and isn't relevant to the discussion. Thanks, Onopearls ^(t/c) 20:10, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The fact that I have addressed the issue with the elected head of the Cherokee Nation, who says the official name of the tribe is "Cherokee Nation" and not "Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma", is one of the most relevant items in the discussion. Additionally, after looking through the nation's website for over an hour, I could not find one reference to the tribe as "Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma." There were hundreds of references to "Cherokee Nation" though. Phil Konstantin (talk) 21:44, 24 June 2009 (UTC) Phil Konstantin

Regarding WP:OR, this isn't a citation for an article; it's a discussion, so talking to highest elected official of the tribe in question is highly relevant. -Uyvsdi (talk) 01:31, 25 June 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi

• Thank you. I also vote to support the move. The internet is rife with references to the "Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma," coming mostly from the Cornsilks and company. That doesn't make it the name of the tribe. I cannot think of any higher authorities on the matter than a) the tribe itself, and b) the US Department of the Interior. -Uyvsdi (talk) 20:37, 17 June 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi

It doesn't really matter since the CNO is going to lose its charter soon because of the Freedmen disenfranchisement issue, and rightly so. Then we can move the article to "Former Cherokee Nation". Chuck Hamilton (talk) 14:59, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Population figures

Since this is a page for an individual tribal entity, and not the tribe as a whole, the "total population" should have the population of that tribe, and not the tribe as a whole (to avoid confusing the reader.) You also need to work on having consistency throughout the articles, as I saw different numbers for each of the articles. I've fixed it so the population of the tribe is at the top, under the flag, as it should be. Thanks, Ono (talk) 06:23, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Chris-Chan should be here! —Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptAnarch (talk • contribs) 19:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Sep 2010: on the historic (19th century) Cherokee Nation

There should also be an article on the historic Cherokee Nation of the 19th century, should't there? Although I know it existed (1834[?] - 1896, or there abouts), it seems it's being ignored. It should have its own article. I don't know enough about the subject to do it myself. I would suggest "Cherokee Nation (19th century)" as title. GenQuest (talk) 11:42, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

You might check out Cherokee history, which has information about the developments and dissolution of the 18th-19th century Cherokee Nation. Cheers, -Uyvsdi (talk) 15:51, 12 September 2010 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Cherokee Nationalism is a political movement to restore the fullest integrity of the Cherokee as an ethnic-national group, other than just being a federally recognized NA tribe. But the idea of who is Cherokee and whom can be considered part of the original Cherokee people, includes other tribes based in the Piedmont region of the Carolinas (i.e. the Catawba, Elk, Powhatan, Santee, Saponi and Tuscarora peoples) and to some extent, the Northeast and Midwest U.S. (i.e. the Delaware or Lenni-Lenape, Lumbee, Miami, Osage, Seneca part of the Iroquois, and Shawnee peoples). The article reliably sourced the other tribal groups known to have joined the CNO in large numbers back in the 18th and 19th, or by intermarriage in the early 20th centuries originated throughout the Southeast US. The historic Cherokee Nation formed in the 16th and 17th centuries of the original 40-46 clans (according to a Youtube Indian historian by the name ChoctawU) included the ancestral forerunners of the Choctaw and Creek Indians, whom claimed to be first inhabitants of the southern Appalachians, but I know of seven clans recognized by Cherokee culture when it came to geneofamilial ties. The Cherokees were in long contact with previous European colonial explorers such as the Spaniards in the 16th century came from the south, and the French first arrived as trappers and fur traders from the north in the 17th century. But the only major western cultural influence the Cherokees encountered are the British in the 18th century, and the offshoot colonies became the United States of America, whom nearly eradicated the Cherokee in the early 19th century. Cherokee Nationalism evolved from their conflicts with the US government, by irony was founded on the principles of freedom, liberty and justice for all, except Cherokees. 71.102.1.101 (talk) 22:40, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Cherokee Nation's tribal jurisdictional base

What is not mentioned in this article, or on the Cherokee Nation web site is what this jurisdiction exactly is. For example, can Cherokee Nation Marshalls cite persons speeding on public roads within this jurisdiction? Trentc (talk) 09:13, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Errors in Flag and Seal Images--Please Correct

The image for the Cherokee Nation flag at the top of the page and the image for the seal near the "1999 Constitution" and "2004 Marriage Law" both contain errors in the syllabary. As a language-speaker from Tahlequah pointed out to me, "the syllabary says Tsa-ta-gi-hi A-ye-tla (ᏣᏔᎩᎯ ᎠᏰᏝ -- error) instead of Tsa-la-gi-hi A-ye-li (ᏣᎳᎩᎯ ᎠᏰᎵ -- correct)." These two images routinely come up as the first "hits" for both the seal and the flag on Google image searches and thus disseminate incorrect representations of Cherokee Nation sovereignty. Recommend pulling images from the official Cherokee Nation site or requesting that image compilers Aaron Walden and jdcollins13 re-compile correct versions of the seal and flag. This applies to the flag on the "Cherokee" page as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.220.229.215 (talk) 16:40, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

You're right. I just removed the image from the article. The image is at Wikimedia Commons, a sister project of Wikipedia. It's here. You can make comments there as well. Yuchitown (talk) 17:34, 5 September 2015 (UTC)Yuchitown

Self-published sources

Regarding anonymous IP's recent edits, please read Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published sources. Personal websites are not acceptable as independent, secondary, published sources for citations. Yuchitown (talk) 22:10, 9 September 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown

Inclusion of the phrase "Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma"

For what it is worth, the Cherokee Nation (the official name) does not call itself the "Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma". Some other groups may use that term, but the actual tribe does not. It does not appear on their official documents, either. My tribal citizenship documents were issued in 1996. It was not on the documents back then, either. So, it is my opinion that the first line of this article, is a bit inaccurate:

"The Cherokee Nation (Cherokee: ᏣᎳᎩᎯ ᎠᏰᎵ, Tsalagihi Ayeli), also known as the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma".

Phil Konstantin (talk) 01:39, 8 January 2019 (UTC) Phil Konstantin, citizen of the Cherokee Nation.

Since it would appear that the tribe did at least occasionally use that phrase in the past -- the 1975 Constitution uses the phrase, but use of the unqualified "Cherokee Nation" was far more frequent -- would it be better to say "sometimes known as" and/or "formerly known as" (or something of that nature)? If there are editors who are hell bent on including "of Oklahoma" in the opening sentence, that might be as much of a change as can be made. I think you should go ahead and make whatever edit you think is correct. Removal of content will often result in reversion, but rewording of misleading statements to make them clearer and more accurate can't really be argued with. :)

Firejuggler86 (talk) 01:38, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

this article is much different from the truth. DONT READ IT!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.184.175.138 (talk) 20:02, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Durbin Feeling Language Center and other updates

A new draft for a Durbin Feeling, Cherokee National Treasure page includes language classes, books and the future learning center authorized in 2019. It would be great to mention Durbin Feeling, a Cherokee Linguist, and link to this page at least once in this article, perhaps in the list of Cherokees with pages. Collaboration is appreciated! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Durbin_Feeling,_Cherokee_National_Treasure — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:DCE0:ADB0:D548:25DB:EC33:1A9B (talk) 21:06, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I feel like that would be more than appropriate as a mention of notable people once his page goes out of draft, then also have a much more substantial mention in the Cherokee language page if he isn't already (i haven't looked into that wiki much). also, that draft article looks pretty sweet, but one thing i thought i would mention. i think when attributing someone, the person should be listed before the quote. eg Bob from the place people know [said, stated, had said, commented], "that guy was legit". StayFree76 ^talk 22:52, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• YvetteHerrell1.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:41, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Finding my heritage

I have been trying for several years to get information on my Indian heritage. I have my great (4x) grandmothers name and that she was born in the early 1700. My Dad is 87 years old and has longed for this since I was a child. In the last few years he has begun speaking in an Indian dialect I don't understand. Sometimes I don't think he does either. Please give me the information of who to contact and any other information you can obtain. (talk) 21:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a social media site. Please refer your request to http://cherokee.org/ or elsewhere. Peaceray (talk) 22:07, 17 February 2022 (UTC)